Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has provoked laughter after
referring to the invasion of Ukraine as "the war which was launched
against us" during the G20 diplomatic forum in India.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov claims US hypocrisy.

"The war, which we are trying to stop, which was launched against
us, using....." he said as the crowd's laughter cut him off.

https://i.postimg.cc/SKVKXgv0/Screenshot-2023-03-04-at-11-45-36-Crowd-laughs-as-Russia-s-foreign-minister-claims-Ukraine-war-was.png

University of Chicago professor Konstantin Sonin  said today:  "This is
hilarious.   And embarrassing.  Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Lavrov
says "the war we are trying to stop was launched against us" and the
Indian audience—supposedly sympathetic—audibly laughs. Russian
"diplomats" think that the lies they use to feed Putin's fantasies.

—I'm guessing Lavrov's next holiday could well be in Siberia. I'd hope he
   doesn't  have an intolerance for salt.

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

Well obviously it is all America's fault.

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:25am:

Well obviously it is all America's fault.

I wouldn't say all, 60/40?

You are too generous Gordon.

Unlike the Americans.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

 

In which you are complicit: see the UN definition of "defensive war" (Chapter VII, article 51":

“Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.”


..."until the Security Council...."; the SC itself is rendered ineffective by the disastrous veto power claimed by all 5 members.

Re the present Ukraine war:

"Successive Ukrainian governments in the 2000s sought a closer relationship with the European Union (EU).[44][45] The government of president Viktor Yanukovych had been negotiating an association agreement with the European Union since 2012.[46] Such a comprehensive trade agreement with the EU would have impacted Ukraine's trade agreements with Russia, the latter being Ukraine's biggest trade partner at the time.[47] Yanukovych believed that the complications could be addressed, and he said that he intended to enter the agreement,[48] but continued to postpone.[49] This was interpreted as an attempt to back out of signing this agreement, and led to a wave of protests which came to be known as the "Euromaidan" movement.[50]

.....Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had some support in the east, where his native Russian is much more spoken, and in the south. The rallies were initially peaceful but became violent in January 2014 after parliament, dominated by Yanukovych's supporters, passed laws intended to repress the protests. The European Union and the United States urged Yanukovych to negotiate a peaceful end to the conflict and said they would impose sanctions on government officials if they were found responsible for violence."

So the US was already threatening sanctions, if the violence was started by the pro-Russian faction, but not by the pro-NATO faction,  without knowing the facts.

The rest is history; perceived self interest on all sides resulting in war.

OK....and you still insist 'national sovereignty' should take precedence over international law.....


Quote:

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

ie, his claim of "defensive war".......like I said it's in the eye of the beholder, only international law (eg via ICJ) can determine such matters, given that self-interested individuals always have their own idea of who is the aggressor, in a dispute over territory or governance. 

eg, the IRA opposed to the British military in Northern Ireland; the Arabs opposed to the partition of Palestine, and the swallowing up of majority Russian speaking areas in Ukraine into Ukraine, opposed by Putin, etc etc.

Oh...and the losers of the Chinese civil war whom the US is determined to defend, despite the fact half the US population itself is living paycheck to paycheck, such is the economic dysfunction in the US (based on natural private sector greed, of course).   

Russia and China are old allies in the silly propaganda department.

The Russian Federation has no credibility.
End of story.  8-)

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

Biden invited putler to invade if it was a limited operation.
Unbelievable.

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:00pm:

Russia and China are old allies in the silly propaganda department.

Neither authoritarian governments have any credibility.
What authoritarian government does?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

Ukraine has been in the Russian sphere of influence for centuries.

Russians do not consider Ukraine to be independent.

The birthplace of Russian culture, according to Russians, is Kyiv.

Even Navalny, Putin's democratic rival, does not believe that Ukraine is a separate country, as nearly all Russians don't.

Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists.

Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021.

However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies.

The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".


Quote:

Russia Russia has the most confirmed nuclear weapons, with 5,997 nuclear warheads. The United States follows behind with 5,428 nuclear weapons, hosted in the US and 5 other nations: Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands. Countries with nuclear weapons - ICAN

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

 

Of course, but not what Taiwan is to China, which is an internal dispute among Chinese.

Good  to see you guys observing the disastrous effects of self-interest, in determining what is 'defensive' war.

Time for international law to overrule self-interest, for the well-being of the whole.

"All must submit to rule of law, if all are to be free." Cicero.   

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".

It does, if it's faced with a conventional war of attrition against a combined NATO with more than 20 times the GDP.

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".

Yes, it does.

Russia is most vulnerable on its western borders to its only habitable land mass - the central region of Russia. This has been a source of paranoia to Russians for hundreds of years.

Tactical nuclear weapons are not feasible if the damage and fallout are going to drift back into Russia, and even less so if they use them close to the Russian border, making the land likely unusable for Russian purposes.

Russia will not tolerate any nation on its western borders outside its sphere of influence - that's why the Baltic states, Finland and Poland know Ukraine is not the end of this.

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?   Of course, but not what Taiwan is to China, which is an internal dispute among Chinese. Good  to see you guys observing the disastrous effects of self-interest, in determining what is 'defensive' war. Time for international law to overrule self-interest, for the well-being of the whole. "All must submit to rule of law, if all are to be free." Cicero.

Job guarantee would have stopped Putin.  Zelensky could just print more money and buy all the battalions of tanks and squadrons of fighter bombers he needs. And the UN could have pursued its collective lips a bit more convincingly.

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow the course he did?

Yes Trump would have allowed Putin to think he could do whatever he liked.

More seriously no it's a complete garbage claim. Putin had this on the books going back to the 1990's. There was zero provocation from the west unless you look at things like letting Putin take Crimea with no opposition and the devastating mess that Trump left behind following his insurection.

Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:22pm: freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?   Of course, but not what Taiwan is to China, which is an internal dispute among Chinese. Good  to see you guys observing the disastrous effects of self-interest, in determining what is 'defensive' war. Time for international law to overrule self-interest, for the well-being of the whole. "All must submit to rule of law, if all are to be free." Cicero.    Job guarantee would have stopped Putin. Zelensky could just print more money

No he couldn't; Putin's invasion has wrecked Ukraine's  productive capacity, which is  the sine qua non of MMT.   


Quote:

and buy all the battalions of tanks and squadrons of fighter bombers he needs. And the UN could have pursued its collective lips a bit more convincingly.

Actually it seems Biden is a secret MMTer: he is handing over $billions in armaments to Ukraine, despite the US's  $31 trillion in debt, and the coming 'debt ceiling'  charade in Congress...

Note: Biden apparently knows the US can't run out of US dollars, the issue is its ability to keep producing armaments, while servicing the needs of its own people.

As for the poor UN, it's  confused by the disastrous doctrine of "defensive", hence "legal" war between nations, despite the fact 'defence' is in the eye of the beholder -  as Putin has spelled out for all to see, with his 'special military operation'.

Sheer madness on a global scale. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:47pm:

Actually it seems Biden is a secret MMTer: he is handing over $billions in armaments to Ukraine, despite the US's  $31 trillion in debt, and the coming 'debt ceiling'  charade in Congress...

So Dementia Joe living up to his moniker. ::)

lee wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:47pm: Actually it seems Biden is a secret MMTer: he is handing over $billions in armaments to Ukraine, despite the US's  $31 trillion in debt, and the coming 'debt ceiling'  charade in Congress... So Dementia Joe living up to his moniker. ::)

Haha...a cheap insult, thanks for the chuckle.

But lucky for the US population, their grandchildren need not be on the hook for all that debt which will NEVER be repaid....

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat". It does, if it's faced with a conventional war of attrition against a combined NATO with more than 20 times the GDP.

NATO is shiting its pants at the thought of a nuclear war.
It wouldn't back Russia/putler in a corner.

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

NATO is shiting its pants at the thought of a nuclear war.

No it's not.

NATO has been tracking Putin's location so well, he has taken to using a train as opposed to flying in an attempt to conceal his whereabouts.

Apparently, Putin has been warned that he and his family will be targeted for execution in the event of using nuclear weapons, notwithstanding that Russia itself would lose all its remaining support if they were used. India has already warned Russia that all diplomatic relations it has with Russia would be severed. Even the CCP would be forced to cut ties with Russia.

And that's not including the fact that the US has the logistics and the air power to cripple the entire Russian state from the air within a week if required. - that's all Russian military installations and utility infrastructure.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too.

How can one post have so many valid points?
Kudos.

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:19pm:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. How can one post have so many valid points? Kudos.

I agree it is all correct.


Quote:

Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994.

That is true but it is difficult to lock new leaders into past agreements. While you are correct in this as soon as Putin came to power he announced that he intended to put the USSR back together how it was. They threw this commitment out in the 1990's.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:05pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 5:52pm: NATO is shiting its pants at the thought of a nuclear war. No it's not. NATO has been tracking Putin's location so well, he has taken to using a train as opposed to flying in an attempt to conceal his whereabouts. Apparently, Putin has been warned that he and his family will be targeted for execution in the event of using nuclear weapons, notwithstanding that Russia itself would lose all its remaining support if they were used. India has already warned Russia that all diplomatic relations it has with Russia would be severed. Even the CCP would be forced to cut ties with Russia. And that's not including the fact that the US has the logistics and the air power to cripple the entire Russian state from the air within a week if required. - that's all Russian military installations and utility infrastructure.

Well, based on the myriad of reports I have read since the beginning of the war, yes, they were shiteing their pants.

putler created those ridiculous referendums that no one took seriously to falsely give the impression that the Ukrainians were fighting on Russian soil.
Epic fail.
If Russia proper were attacked, it would be a different story.
Tactical nuclear weapons would be in the cards, imo.

Countries are terrified about a possible nuclear holocaust, and that is why they have been dancing around what they can and can't give to Ukraine.
Poland, as an example, has been issuing iodine pills in the event of a nuclear attack
The idea is being taken VERY seriously.

Why else would countries have been so hesitant at the beginning of the war when it was seen how the Ukrainians effectively fought back?
It took them forever to decide on giving Ukraine tanks, and even now, there is a lot of fart arseing around about giving military planes.
pulter's only real trump card is the threat of MAD.

If Russia's existence were to be threatened, I don't think they would care about being the naughty kid on the block.

"Read my lips."
Biden was shiteing his pants at the possibility of nuclear weapons being used.

And if putler was assassinated, it would PROBABLY just end there, rather than a full-on annihilation of the Russian state with its consequences.
A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.
Most Russians wouldn't want to be involved in a nuclear holocaust.
Trust me on that.  8-)

BTW, personally, I never took putler's threat about the use of nuclear weapons seriously, even though many around me did.
I have lived too many years to take that nonsense to heart.
But had I been wrong, I would has simply said: "Well, blow me down. You were right. You win... and enjoy the apocalypse."  ;)

One country that will not come out of this smiling, is Iran. Zelensky's friends will see to that.

Bring back the Iraqi Information Minister! ;D

Belgarion wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:34pm:

Bring back the Iraqi Information Minister! ;D

Yeah, Chemical Ali stuff.

Which was Black Knight stuff.

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:08pm:

A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.

Oh really!

What would the details of a reset look like?

Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation.

Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice.

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

Yes.

It surprises me that anyone even reports what Lavrov has to say. We all know it is lies and obfuscation with the intent to confuse the issue.

1) Communist Soviet Union collapses.
2) Attempts to establish democracy.
3) Corruption leads to national resources being given to individuals.
4) Putin ex KGB uses oligarch favours to change Presidency to dictatorship.
5) Ukraine votes for European values and kicks out Putin's puppet.
6) Putin siezes control of Georgia, and Crimea after getting rid of Ukraines nuclear arms.
7) Huge Russian force attempts to take Ukraine and use the Carpathian mountain range for military advantage over eastern Europe.

If anyone doesn't see that Poland Romania and the Baltic states are next, well, they are thick as two bricks.

But all of this is the evil NATO plan to destroy Russia which will mean losing billions of Western investment while allowing NATO's military to be dismantled by succession of anti-war,  policies intended, ironically, to integrate Russia with EU economic prosperity.

What is the evil NATO plan?

How did the US force Putin's hand?

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:13am:

[size=12]It surprises me that anyone even reports what Lavrov has to say. We all know it is lies and obfuscation with the intent to confuse the issue. 1) Communist Soviet Union collapses. 2) Attempts to establish democracy. 3) Corruption leads to national resources being given to individuals.

The West is very poor at facing the consequences of entrenched disadvantage in market economies.

Russia of course went through hell trying to transition from a planned economy to a market economy - the life expectancy of Russian males dropped by a decade.

And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO. 

Putin revived the economy for a while in the 2000's on the back of high oil prices, but later the Russian economy began to stagnate again when oil prices fell, resulting high poverty rates.

Hence Putin's resort to the 'territorial integrity' card...

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.

And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO.

Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it?

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 5:22pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:18am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO. Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it?

I believe it was seriously considered. Russians don't just think in terms of nationality, they also think in terms of 'sphere of influence', so an eastern European country can be a sovereign state, in Russian terms, but cannot just disregard the Russian sphere of influence.

And if you think it's only a Russian thing, the US has the same sensibility - think the Monroe Doctrine, Cuba and all of South America.

And if you think the US-Cuba thing isn't pervasive, try selling even these on eBay Australia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ef/Cuban3Pesos.jpg

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:50pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 7:08pm: A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt. Oh really! What would the details of a reset look like? Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation. Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice.

Quote:

the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts

The problem is that these regions that Russia claims are Pro Russian are not.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 6:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 8:50pm: iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 7:08pm: A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt. Oh really! What would the details of a reset look like? Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation. Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice. Quote: the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts The problem is that these regions that Russia claims are Pro Russian are not.

Oh really! Western Ukrainians would disagree with you. They speak Russian and support Russia.

Those oblasts are overwhelmingly pro-Russian and Kyiv will have zero hope of governing them. Under Ukraine's governance, they're destined to be an Eastern European 'Northern Ireland' and would be a birthing place for pro-Russian terrorists, sponsored by Russia, active in Ukraine and across Europe.

You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:11pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 6:39pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 8:50pm: iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 7:08pm: A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt. Oh really! What would the details of a reset look like? Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation. Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice. Quote: the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts The problem is that these regions that Russia claims are Pro Russian are not. Oh really! Western Ukrainians would disagree with you. They speak Russian and support Russia. Those oblasts are overwhelmingly pro-Russian and Kyiv will have zero hope of governing them. Under Ukraine's governance, they're destined to be an Eastern European 'Northern Ireland' and would be a birthing place for pro-Russian terrorists, sponsored by Russia, active in Ukraine and across Europe.

"Oh, really."  :D
How do you explain the stiff resistance of the Ukrainians against "The second most powerful military in the world"?  ;)
This is not a divided nation ready for civil war.

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 8:31pm:

You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think.

Agreed.

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 8:31pm:

You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think.

Well, you'd be wrong.

Western Ukrainians wrote off the south and southeast months ago.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 9:07pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 8:31pm: You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think. Well, you'd be wrong. Western Ukrainians wrote off the south and southeast months ago.

And you know this to be a fact because . . . ?

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 10:19pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 9:07pm: Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 8:31pm: You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think. Well, you'd be wrong. Western Ukrainians wrote off the south and southeast months ago. And you know this to be a fact because . . . ?

Ukrainians speak of it.

If you want to hear a public personality discuss this, Konstantin Kisin would be a good start. He is half Russian, half Ukrainian. His wife is Ukrainian.

A lot of the “separist” sentiment was russian conscripts sent to the two oblasts.

There is a widespread misinterpretation of Eastern Europe, including its long-standing social, cultural and political relationship with Russia, as well as its religious connections or conflicts with Western Europe.

Prior to its current democratic and unified state, Western Europe was a patchwork of autocratic empires, kingdoms, small states, and free cities with fluctuating borders that only began to coalesce into its current form in the last century. However, its association with the East has endured and has been evolving for centuries.

In Eastern Europe, which was also once a mix of autocratic empires, kingdoms, and small states with ever-changing borders, Russian influence has long dominated.

Today, there are extensive Russian populations, Russian-speaking communities, and Russocentric subcultures (both religious and secular) throughout Eastern Europe and beyond Russia's historically flexible borders. These regions encompass various independent states, such as Poland, the Baltic states, Georgia, and the southern 'stans among others.

To assume that Ukrainians suddenly and completely shifted towards a Western-facing identity 15+ years ago is to ignore the complex web of Russian influence and allegiance that has existed in Eastern Europe for centuries.

Putin and Lavrov say that NATO is Russia's mortal enemy. Although I do not have proof, it is my opinion that Moscow, communist or Putinist, have been wishing for a war with NATO for decades, so their great proletariate military could show the imperialist capitalists how strong and clever Russia is. The problem has been the situation was never quite right for the blitzkrieg they built the Russian army for. Well, now they have got their wish, and they have shown their hand, and that has given NATO time to prepare. How stupid is that? Meanwhile the Muscovites are frittering away their resources without the ability to strike NATO, making themselves relatively weaker by the day.

The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy. Communist China has been successful, but they have avoided war with the source of their wealth so far.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 8:41am:

The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy.

No.

The root cause of this animosity is the centuries-old Russian sense of existential threat arising from invasion.

Russians instil in their children stories of the 'times of troubles' (i.e. invasion) which ends when a strongman rises to rid mother Russia of the invaders and save the Russian people.

It is deeply instilled in the Russian psyche.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 9:09am:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:41am: The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy. No. The root cause of this animosity is the centuries-old Russian sense of existential threat arising from invasion. Russians instil in their children stories of the 'times of troubles' (i.e. invasion) which ends when a strongman rises to rid mother Russia of the invaders and save the Russian people. It is deeply instilled in the Russian psyche.

No, the root cause is envy.

No, Meister is right. Fear of invasion, wanting to have buffers so the russians can trade space for time, time for winter to destroy the invading armies. Worked with Napoleon, worked with Hitler. Also worked with Turks and Mongols and the Swedish.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:00am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:09am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:41am: The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy. No. The root cause of this animosity is the centuries-old Russian sense of existential threat arising from invasion. Russians instil in their children stories of the 'times of troubles' (i.e. invasion) which ends when a strongman rises to rid mother Russia of the invaders and save the Russian people. It is deeply instilled in the Russian psyche. No, the root cause is envy.

Read and learn something about Russian culture. Nobody commits to war on this scale out of envy.

Russians have for centuries angsted over Russia's western border, and the last 200+ years only confirm their fears - Napoleon I, Napolean III and the Crimean war, Germany WW1, Germany WW2...

Ukraine + the West cannot make a peace deal that gives russia the Ukrainian territories it holds now. There will be unrest in Moldova that the russians will foment and take advantage of.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too.

Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin???

:-? :-? :-?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:07am:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:00am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:09am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:41am: The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy. No. The root cause of this animosity is the centuries-old Russian sense of existential threat arising from invasion. Russians instil in their children stories of the 'times of troubles' (i.e. invasion) which ends when a strongman rises to rid mother Russia of the invaders and save the Russian people. It is deeply instilled in the Russian psyche. No, the root cause is envy. Read and learn something about Russian culture. Nobody commits to war on this scale out of envy. Russians have for centuries angsted over Russia's western border, and the last 200+ years only confirm their fears - Napoleon I, Napolean III and the Crimean war, Germany WW1, Germany WW2...

Look, you can say no all day long, until your blue in the face, it doesn't make your post anymore credible. Russian envy of the West's progress is no more obvious than in Peter the Great. You need to stop writing like such a bloody know-all.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:07am:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:00am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:09am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:41am: The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy. No. The root cause of this animosity is the centuries-old Russian sense of existential threat arising from invasion. Russians instil in their children stories of the 'times of troubles' (i.e. invasion) which ends when a strongman rises to rid mother Russia of the invaders and save the Russian people. It is deeply instilled in the Russian psyche. No, the root cause is envy. Read and learn something about Russian culture. Nobody commits to war on this scale out of envy. Russians have for centuries angsted over Russia's western border, and the last 200+ years only confirm their fears - Napoleon I, Napolean III and the Crimean war, Germany WW1, Germany WW2...

The speculation is all moot considering that Putin explained it all himself in the 1990's when he took power.

He simply wants to restore the prestige and power of the once great USSR. He committed to moving in this direction a long long time ago. It isn't unexpected he is simply doing what he had committed to do.

This is Putin saying in his own way Make the USSR great again.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 5:22pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:18am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO. Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it?

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561

Russia could have joined NATO. But why didn't they do it?

"Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. Had it happened, the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine could have been prevented.

Note: 'the eye of the beholder'.....; Meister helpfully sees Russia as applying for NATO membership while "having poo running down its legs"....


while Russia suffered the catastrophe of transition from planned economy to competitive market economy.

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:26am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:07am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:00am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:09am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:41am: The root cause of this animosity Is envy. Russia has always had the dilemma of wanting to have the benefits of western progress while maintaining strict autocracy. No. The root cause of this animosity is the centuries-old Russian sense of existential threat arising from invasion. Russians instil in their children stories of the 'times of troubles' (i.e. invasion) which ends when a strongman rises to rid mother Russia of the invaders and save the Russian people. It is deeply instilled in the Russian psyche. No, the root cause is envy. Read and learn something about Russian culture. Nobody commits to war on this scale out of envy. Russians have for centuries angsted over Russia's western border, and the last 200+ years only confirm their fears - Napoleon I, Napolean III and the Crimean war, Germany WW1, Germany WW2... Look, you can say no all day long, until your blue in the face, it doesn't make your post anymore credible. Russian envy of the West's progress is no more obvious than in Peter the Great. You need to stop writing like such a bloody know-all.

Envy, eh! Another old know-nothing wanker with nothing to say.

What would they do if they were just slightly miffed? Bomb only one town and rape only the old women?

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 12:59pm:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:22pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:18am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO. Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it? https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561 Russia could have joined NATO. But why didn't they do it? "Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. Had it happened, the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine could have been prevented. Note: 'the eye of the beholder'.....; Meister helpfully sees Russia as applying for NATO membership while "having poo running down its legs".... while Russia suffered the catastrophe of transition from planned economy to competitive market economy.

'Could have been prevented', eh! 'The old if everything was different the outcomes would have been better'!

Had Russia been accepted into NATO, it would have vetoed the hell out of every decision, monstered eastern European nations in NATO and prevented the rest from joining.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 1:55pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 12:59pm: issuevoter wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:22pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:18am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO. Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it? https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561 Russia could have joined NATO. But why didn't they do it? "Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. Had it happened, the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine could have been prevented. Note: 'the eye of the beholder'.....; Meister helpfully sees Russia as applying for NATO membership while "having poo running down its legs".... while Russia suffered the catastrophe of transition from planned economy to competitive market economy. 'Could have been prevented', eh! 'The old if everything was different the outcomes would have been better'! Had Russia been accepted into NATO, it would have vetoed the hell out of every decision, monstered eastern European nations in NATO and prevented the rest from joining.

Nonsense; if Russia had joined NATO (eg in 1990),  why would it have objected to its western neighbours also joining?   

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 2:04pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 1:55pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 12:59pm: issuevoter wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:22pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:18am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO. Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it? https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561 Russia could have joined NATO. But why didn't they do it? "Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. Had it happened, the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine could have been prevented. Note: 'the eye of the beholder'.....; Meister helpfully sees Russia as applying for NATO membership while "having poo running down its legs".... while Russia suffered the catastrophe of transition from planned economy to competitive market economy. 'Could have been prevented', eh! 'The old if everything was different the outcomes would have been better'! Had Russia been accepted into NATO, it would have vetoed the hell out of every decision, monstered eastern European nations in NATO and prevented the rest from joining. Nonsense; if Russia had joined NATO (eg in 1990),  why would it have objected to its western neighbours also joining?

Because they weren't western neighbours, they were ex-Warsaw Pact countries that Russia claimed (and still does), are in the Russian sphere of influence. The last thing Russia would have wanted was for its satellite nations to have equal veto powers to Russia.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 2:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 2:04pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 1:55pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 12:59pm: issuevoter wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 5:22pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:18am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.  And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO. Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it? https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561 Russia could have joined NATO. But why didn't they do it? "Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. Had it happened, the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine could have been prevented. Note: 'the eye of the beholder'.....; Meister helpfully sees Russia as applying for NATO membership while "having poo running down its legs".... while Russia suffered the catastrophe of transition from planned economy to competitive market economy. 'Could have been prevented', eh! 'The old if everything was different the outcomes would have been better'! Had Russia been accepted into NATO, it would have vetoed the hell out of every decision, monstered eastern European nations in NATO and prevented the rest from joining. Nonsense; if Russia had joined NATO (eg in 1990),  why would it have objected to its western neighbours also joining?    Because they weren't western neighbours, they were ex-Warsaw Pact countries that Russia claimed (and still does), are in the Russian sphere of influence. The last thing Russia would have wanted was for its satellite nations to have equal veto powers to Russia.

So you are claiming Russia , purportedly wanting to join NATO, would not have understood the purpose of NATO's role as a defensive union. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 2:23pm:

So you are claiming Russia , purportedly wanting to join NATO, would not have understood the purpose of NATO's role as a defensive union.

Russia has always understood NATO. Had it been in NATO, it would not have tolerated eastern Europe being protected against Russian will - it isn't tolerating it today and it never will.

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

NO. Viet Nam was never a part of the US. But the Ukraine was once a part of Russia. Viet Nam is a socialist/communist country. There are just too many differences between these countries to make this analogy.

Since the 90's, America/NATO has done everything to provoke and contain Russia. NATO/US were warned for many years about their expansion into Eastern Europe, and that the Ukraine was the final line in the sand. As this would completely encircle Russia with American/NATO missiles and bases. Not to mention, surrounded by countries with different political ideologies.

Remember what happened when Cuba decided to acquire missiles from Russia, as a deterrent for any future attacks by the US(the Bay of Pigs)? The US said that these missiles posed an existential threat to its sovereignty. America was willing to start WWIII if Russia didn't remove its missiles(the Cuban Missile Crisis). 

But of course no existential threat to Russian sovereignty exists. Even while the US and NATO member nations, are openly conducting a proxy war against Russia. And, are trying to completely surround Russia with their missiles and bases. Obviously, just another one of American's double standard.

Russia knows that it could never win a conventional war against NATO/US. But by having the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, it doesn't have to. If Putin feels that his country is going to be destroyed by the combine might of 30 NATO and other counties, he might just decide that the nuclear option is his only option left. Do you think Hitler would have used nukes, if he had any??

And, at 5 miles per second(Mach 23), he could reach anywhere in the US in under 30 min. Or, in 10-20 min. if fired from  Russian subs. And, there is nothing anyone can do, once these nukes are fired! Or, the nuclear winter that will follow. Oh, and there are no self-destruct code, once the missiles are fired. Except in the movies!

I'm sure that NATO/US, are willing to fight to the very last Ukrainian. And, I'm sure that this war would have ended many months ago, if not for foreign intervention.   

I'm sure no one is expecting Russia to "just call it a day", and simply follow the instructions of Capitalist ideologues! Or, simply return home and let the capitalists take control over the rest of Russia's border countries. I remember just how irate/ballistic Australia went, at the thought of Papua New Guinea having China's flags in Port Moresby.

We should just mind our own business. Especially, when there is a risk of destroying all of mankind involved. When the first nukes drop, it won't matter anymore who was right, and who was wrong. Will it??      

   

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US? NO. Viet Nam was never a part of the US. But the Ukraine was once a part of Russia. Viet Nam is a socialist/communist country. There are just too many differences between these countries to make this analogy. Since the 90's, America/NATO has done everything to provoke and contain Russia. NATO/US were warned for many years about their expansion into Eastern Europe, and that the Ukraine was the final line in the sand. As this would completely encircle Russia with American/NATO missiles and bases. Not to mention, surrounded by countries with different political ideologies. Remember what happened when Cuba decided to acquire missiles from Russia, as a deterrent for any future attacks by the US(the Bay of Pigs)? The US said that these missiles posed an existential threat to its sovereignty. America was willing to start WWIII if Russia didn't remove its missiles(the Cuban Missile Crisis).  But of course no existential threat to Russian sovereignty exists. Even while the US and NATO member nations, are openly conducting a proxy war against Russia. And, are trying to completely surround Russia with their missiles and bases. Obviously, just another one of American's double standard. Russia knows that it could never win a conventional war against NATO/US. But by having the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, it doesn't have to. If Putin feels that his country is going to be destroyed by the combine might of 30 NATO and other counties, he might just decide that the nuclear option is his only option left. Do you think Hitler would have used nukes, if he had any?? And, at 5 miles per second(Mach 23), he could reach anywhere in the US in under 30 min. Or, in 10-20 min. if fired from  Russian subs. And, there is nothing anyone can do, once these nukes are fired! Or, the nuclear winter that will follow. Oh, and there are no self-destruct code, once the missiles are fired. Except in the movies! I'm sure that NATO/US, are willing to fight to the very last Ukrainian. And, I'm sure that this war would have ended many months ago, if not for foreign intervention.    I'm sure no one is expecting Russia to "just call it a day", and simply follow the instructions of Capitalist ideologues! Or, simply return home and let the capitalists take control over the rest of Russia's border countries. I remember just how irate/ballistic Australia went, at the thought of Papua New Guinea having China's flags in Port Moresby. We should just mind our own business. Especially, when there is a risk of destroying all of mankind involved. When the first nukes drop, it won't matter anymore who was right, and who was wrong. Will it??

    👏🏼👏🏼
  👏🏼    👏🏼
    👏🏼👏🏼

Great post shellshilo.

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US? NO. Viet Nam was never a part of the US. But the Ukraine was once a part of Russia. Viet Nam is a socialist/communist country. There are just too many differences between these countries to make this analogy. Since the 90's, America/NATO has done everything to provoke and contain Russia. NATO/US were warned for many years about their expansion into Eastern Europe, and that the Ukraine was the final line in the sand. As this would completely encircle Russia with American/NATO missiles and bases. Not to mention, surrounded by countries with different political ideologies. Remember what happened when Cuba decided to acquire missiles from Russia, as a deterrent for any future attacks by the US(the Bay of Pigs)? The US said that these missiles posed an existential threat to its sovereignty. America was willing to start WWIII if Russia didn't remove its missiles(the Cuban Missile Crisis).  But of course no existential threat to Russian sovereignty exists. Even while the US and NATO member nations, are openly conducting a proxy war against Russia. And, are trying to completely surround Russia with their missiles and bases. Obviously, just another one of American's double standard. Russia knows that it could never win a conventional war against NATO/US. But by having the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, it doesn't have to. If Putin feels that his country is going to be destroyed by the combine might of 30 NATO and other counties, he might just decide that the nuclear option is his only option left. Do you think Hitler would have used nukes, if he had any?? And, at 5 miles per second(Mach 23), he could reach anywhere in the US in under 30 min. Or, in 10-20 min. if fired from  Russian subs. And, there is nothing anyone can do, once these nukes are fired! Or, the nuclear winter that will follow. Oh, and there are no self-destruct code, once the missiles are fired. Except in the movies! I'm sure that NATO/US, are willing to fight to the very last Ukrainian. And, I'm sure that this war would have ended many months ago, if not for foreign intervention.    I'm sure no one is expecting Russia to "just call it a day", and simply follow the instructions of Capitalist ideologues! Or, simply return home and let the capitalists take control over the rest of Russia's border countries. I remember just how irate/ballistic Australia went, at the thought of Papua New Guinea having China's flags in Port Moresby. We should just mind our own business. Especially, when there is a risk of destroying all of mankind involved. When the first nukes drop, it won't matter anymore who was right, and who was wrong. Will it??

It was not NATO that triggered this. When the Ukrainian people removed Yanukovych, it sent a clear message to Russia that Ukraine was moving away from the Russian sphere of influence.

This was the bridge too far that Russia would not tolerate.

Russia's aim is to reassert itself in the Baltics and as far into former Warsaw Pact countries as it can get, (Serbia and Hungary would not disapprove), but to do that, Russia needs Ukraine to be in line with the Russian sphere of influence.

Too right! Hungary is a dictatorship and would join with the wishes of the russian dictatorship. How strong would Bulgaria be? Romania?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 4:05pm:

It was not NATO that triggered this. When the Ukrainian people removed Yanukovych, it sent a clear message to Russia that Ukraine was moving away from the Russian sphere of influence. This was the bridge too far that Russia would not tolerate. Russia's aim is to reassert itself in the Baltics and as far into former Warsaw Pact countries as it can get, (Serbia and Hungary would not disapprove), but to do that, Russia needs Ukraine to be in line with the Russian sphere of influence.

I'm afraid that it is NOT quite that simple. I think that NATO, the EU, and the IMF were the catalyst directly responsible for the series of events, that gave Russia no choice but to attack the Ukraine.

You make it sound like Yanukovych was removed because he was AGAINST the Ukraine joining the EU. He was 100% in favor of the Ukraine joining the EU. So let me add some context. You forget just how  deeply indebted the Ukraine was. In fact, Yanukovych estimated that he would need $160B over three years to make up for the expected lost in trade he would have with Russia. And, to cushion the pain from the reforms that the the EU was demanding. The EU refused. Which left the Ukraine teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

Yanukovych was hoping that the IMF could help them out, like they did in 2008. When Tymoshenko was the Prime Minister(with a $16.5 billion loan). The IMF also approved a $15.5 billion stand-by program for the Yanukovych government in 2010. After only disbursing about $3.5 billion, the program was frozen in 2011. Because Ukraine failed to meet its conditions. A year later, the program had expired.

The IMF, like the EU, was unwilling to grant the sort of loans Yanukovych wanted under a new program. In fact, they wanted the Ukraine to pay back $3.7B within the next year. This was unacceptable for the Ukraine.

Yanukovych was furious with the IMF. He thought that they were just ignoring his reasonable demands, to lift the tough conditions placed on its earlier help. Such as, increasing the retirement age, and the freezing of pensions and wages. When Oliynyk, Ukraine’s permanent representative for NATO, and others turned to Europe’s officials for help, they “spat on us".

There was also the EU's demand that Yulia Tymoshenko be released from prison. Even though she stated publicly that she would kill Yanukovych for his u-turn on joining the EU. And, the fact that she was the only person who could beat him in the elections. So, that was never going to happen. There was also the matter of Moscow blocking the sales of Ukrainian-produced meat, cheese and some confectionery, and the scrapping of duty-free quotas on steel pipes.

Yanukovych also knew that the EU was NEVER going to offer the Ukraine the prospects of full membership. So, no matter what decision Yanukovych made, he would either be damaged politically, or be damaged economically. So he chose the economic deal with Russia. Which I believe was the right choice. His problem, although he(and his family) vehemently denies any involvement, was ordering the police to kill almost 140 protesters.   
 
Russia has absolutely no interest in rebuilding the Warsaw Pact(or the old USSR). Putin has said so on numerous occasions. Do you know WHY Russia abandoned the Warsaw pact in the first place? And, NATO still continues to lie to Moscow, about limiting its expansion into Eastern Europe.

I think that Russia's only aim, is to protect the security of its sovereignty as a country. To protect itself against any existential threat along its borders. Or, against the REAL threat of foreign countries supplying its enemy with arms, munitions, logistics, etc. I am very surprised at Putin's patience. 30 NATO countries indirectly attacking him, and he's still issuing warnings. At some point these warnings will stop.

I don't really care who is at fault in this conflict. Or, who started it. None of that will offer me any comfort, while I/m in my bunker riding out a nuclear winter! But what I do know, is that if we keep killing more and more Russians(by proxy), and keep bragging about it, we will eventually force Putin's nuclear hand! And then, EVERYBODY LOSES!! 


   

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 4:15pm:

Too right! Hungary is a dictatorship and would join with the wishes of the russian dictatorship. How strong would Bulgaria be? Romania?

Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary are ALL MEMBERS OF NATO and the EU. You can't be a member to either if your government is currently a dictatorship! One of the minimum rules is,

"New members must uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity."

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 11:34pm:

I think that Russia's only aim, is to protect the security of its sovereignty as a country. To protect itself against any existential threat along its borders. Or, against the REAL threat of foreign countries supplying its enemy with arms, munitions, logistics, etc. I am very surprised at Putin's patience. 30 NATO countries indirectly attacking him, and he's still issuing warnings. At some point these warnings will stop.

There's no doubt Russia is responding to its centuries-old perceived existential threat from beyond its western borders.

That Ukrainian resolve has proved to be as solid as it has been, has come as a shock to Putin and a surprise to NATO, I'd bet.

That Russia has proved itself to be a spectacular failure in conventional warfare has also come as a shock to Putin and a surprise to NATO, I'd bet.

Putin isn't so much patient, but he is desperate. A deal that gets him the south and southeast is likely the best he's ever going to get out of this, if NATO gives it the nod, (if it hasn't already).

This entire fiasco, I'd bet, has given the CCP, (with its 'cha bu duo' PLA), cause for alarm that it may also be as spectacular a failure if it attempted an invasion of Taiwan.

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 11:34pm:

Russia has absolutely no interest in rebuilding the Warsaw Pact(or the old USSR). Putin has said so on numerous occasions. Do you know WHY Russia abandoned the Warsaw pact in the first place? And, NATO still continues to lie to Moscow, about limiting its expansion into Eastern Europe.

I'm certain Putin does not want to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, not least because Russia is a shell of its former USSR self.

Putin lied about the invasion, almost right up until the day of the invasion, he then informed the Russian people of his special military operation because Ukraine had been taken over by Nazis.

Five days after the war began, he claimed Russia was not occupying any Ukrainian territory.

He claimed that Russia was under attack.

He claimed Ukrainians were committing genocide against Russians in Ukraine.

He unleashed a massive propaganda campaign in Russia and outlawed any reporting on the war that doesn't follow the Kremlin line - even criminalising calling the SMO a war.

He claimed the genocides uncovered by advancing Ukrainians were staged and that dead civilians were actors.

His lying has been so prolific it has descended into a ridiculous farce in itself when he endorsed the notion that Ukraine had been taken over by gay Nazis.

Putin's entire reason for the war and the excuses he has had to invent due to his administration's incompetence have been a conga line of lies and misinformation.

If it was all about NATO, why the need for all the lies?

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:23am:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-?

Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 5:19am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.

Calm down, you're getting hysterical again.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 5:19am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.

Yes it is.

Australian PM denies Australian navy is planning to invade Solomon Islands.

Australian PM advises RAN ships massing around Solomons is routine military exercise.

Australian PM denies Australian troops have entered Honiara.

Australian PM confirms Australian troops have entered Honiara – Advises troops invited in by rightful Solomons government.

Australian PM advises troops in Honiara is a military intervention; warns Solomons taken over by militant cannibals.

Australian PM claims militant cannibals funded by CCP.

Australian PM denies ADF involved in failed Solomon’s coup attempt.

Australian PM denies ADF forced to retreat from Honiara.

Australian PM confirms ADF completed tactical withdrawal from Honiara – accuses CCP of supplying arms to militant cannibals and interfering in Australian internal security operation.

Australian PM confirms military intervention to be expanded in Solomons.

Australian PM warns militant cannibals also a sexual military cannibalistic cult.

Australian PM advises Solomons sexual military cannibals and CCP started hostilities.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 8:33am:

Australian PM denies Australian navy is planning to invade Solomon Islands. Australian PM advises RAN ships massing around Solomons is routine military exercise. Australian PM denies Australian troops have entered Honiara. Australian PM confirms Australian troops have entered Honiara – Advises troops invited in by rightful Solomons government. Australian PM advises troops in Honiara is a military intervention; warns Solomons taken over by militant cannibals. Australian PM claims militant cannibals funded by CCP. Australian PM denies ADF involved in failed Solomon’s coup attempt. Australian PM denies ADF forced to retreat from Honiara. Australian PM confirms ADF completed tactical withdrawal from Honiara – accuses CCP of supplying arms to militant cannibals and interfering in Australian internal security operation. Australian PM confirms military intervention to be expanded in Solomons. Australian PM warns militant cannibals also a sexual military cannibalistic cult. Australian PM advises Solomons sexual military cannibals and CCP started hostilities.

Australian PM advises CCP started Solomons war by not starting Solomons war.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 5:19am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.

Yes it is cock sucker....When you claim Russia is innocent and the West are responsible for Russian planes and tanks attacking Ukraine you are defending Putin you dickhead....You are a pathetic piece of crap aren't you???

::) ::) ::)

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 5:19am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.

If NATO had started this war, Putin would have had no reason to lie daily about his 'special military operation'.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 5:19am:

Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.

thats like me saying that calling you stupid isn't an attack on your intelligence :D :D :D

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:09pm: Gordon wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 11:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 10:51am: Ah, the post-truth world! He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament. Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did? No, this war was always going to happen. Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence. That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat. It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it. So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US? NO. Viet Nam was never a part of the US. But the Ukraine was once a part of Russia. Viet Nam is a socialist/communist country. There are just too many differences between these countries to make this analogy. Since the 90's, America/NATO has done everything to provoke and contain Russia. NATO/US were warned for many years about their expansion into Eastern Europe, and that the Ukraine was the final line in the sand. As this would completely encircle Russia with American/NATO missiles and bases. Not to mention, surrounded by countries with different political ideologies. Remember what happened when Cuba decided to acquire missiles from Russia, as a deterrent for any future attacks by the US(the Bay of Pigs)? The US said that these missiles posed an existential threat to its sovereignty. America was willing to start WWIII if Russia didn't remove its missiles(the Cuban Missile Crisis).  But of course no existential threat to Russian sovereignty exists. Even while the US and NATO member nations, are openly conducting a proxy war against Russia. And, are trying to completely surround Russia with their missiles and bases. Obviously, just another one of American's double standard. Russia knows that it could never win a conventional war against NATO/US. But by having the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, it doesn't have to. If Putin feels that his country is going to be destroyed by the combine might of 30 NATO and other counties, he might just decide that the nuclear option is his only option left. Do you think Hitler would have used nukes, if he had any?? And, at 5 miles per second(Mach 23), he could reach anywhere in the US in under 30 min. Or, in 10-20 min. if fired from  Russian subs. And, there is nothing anyone can do, once these nukes are fired! Or, the nuclear winter that will follow. Oh, and there are no self-destruct code, once the missiles are fired. Except in the movies! I'm sure that NATO/US, are willing to fight to the very last Ukrainian. And, I'm sure that this war would have ended many months ago, if not for foreign intervention.    I'm sure no one is expecting Russia to "just call it a day", and simply follow the instructions of Capitalist ideologues! Or, simply return home and let the capitalists take control over the rest of Russia's border countries. I remember just how irate/ballistic Australia went, at the thought of Papua New Guinea having China's flags in Port Moresby. We should just mind our own business. Especially, when there is a risk of destroying all of mankind involved. When the first nukes drop, it won't matter anymore who was right, and who was wrong. Will it??

Excellent post.

As I say, "justice" is in the eye of the beholder.

My solution to our collective insanity is to accept rule of law as defined by an ICJ dedicated to upholding the principles of UNUDHR, with national disarmament overseen by a UNSC whose members are themselves relieved of the law-destroying veto power.

That's what rule of law requires.    

   

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 11:36am:

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 5:19am: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard. Yes it is cock sucker....When you claim Russia is innocent and the West are responsible for Russian planes and tanks attacking Ukraine you are defending Putin you dickhead....You are a pathetic piece of crap aren't you??? ::) ::) ::)

Bwahahahaha.
America have been doing this around the world for years.
Not my problem you're to God damned retarded to see whats going on.
Keep licking cnn windows. They're all dirty to the core.

John Smith wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 11:48am:

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 5:19am: Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard. thats like me saying that calling you stupid isn't an attack on your intelligence :D :D :D

Says the joker who speaks to his toilet bowl...
Bwahahahaha.
Yep, you're an intellect all right.  ;)

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 3:51pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 11:36am: Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 5:19am: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard. Yes it is cock sucker....When you claim Russia is innocent and the West are responsible for Russian planes and tanks attacking Ukraine you are defending Putin you dickhead....You are a pathetic piece of crap aren't you??? ::) ::) ::) Bwahahahaha. America have been doing this around the world for years. Not my problem you're to God damned retarded to see whats going on. Keep licking cnn windows. They're all dirty to the core.

Regardless of "cnn windows", you have to face the fact it takes two to engage in war.

And each side is claiming "justice".

Your solution?

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 3:57pm:

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 3:51pm: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 11:36am: Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 5:19am: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard. Yes it is cock sucker....When you claim Russia is innocent and the West are responsible for Russian planes and tanks attacking Ukraine you are defending Putin you dickhead....You are a pathetic piece of crap aren't you??? ::) ::) ::) Bwahahahaha. America have been doing this around the world for years. Not my problem you're to God damned retarded to see whats going on. Keep licking cnn windows. They're all dirty to the core. Regardless of "cnn windows", you have to face the fact it takes two to engage in war. And each side is claiming "justice". Your solution?

Absolutely.

I don't want nuclear war.... Period.

This has been ongoing push by the US since the fall of the soviet regime.
2013 was the turning point.
The US has been poking this bear for a long time. They do this to every country they war with, and the lies they put out gets all on their side just like you see here on this forum.

Do I agree with putin?
No.

But if nato/us agreed to peace talks then maybe, just maybe, we'd not be looking down the barrel of nuclear war.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 4:08pm:

Absolutely. I don't want nuclear war.... Period. This has been ongoing push by the US since the fall of the soviet regime. 2013 was the turning point. The US has been poking this bear for a long time. They do this to every country they war with, and the lies they put out gets all on their side just like you see here on this forum. Do I agree with putin? No. But if nato/us agreed to peace talks then maybe, just maybe, we'd not be looking down the barrel of nuclear war.

Just pointing out: Libertarians propose the idea of 'voluntary agreement' being the natural state of man, in order to avoid submission to rule of law, including international law. 

NATO and Putin won't agree.... apportioning of blame notwithstanding. 

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 3:51pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 11:36am: Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 5:19am: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard. Yes it is cock sucker....When you claim Russia is innocent and the West are responsible for Russian planes and tanks attacking Ukraine you are defending Putin you dickhead....You are a pathetic piece of crap aren't you??? ::) ::) ::) Bwahahahaha. America have been doing this around the world for years. Not my problem you're to God damned retarded to see whats going on. Keep licking cnn windows. They're all dirty to the core.

I thought it was lefty's defending Putin not half wit right wing arseholes???

Communist....Putin has you sucked in!!!

:) :) :)

It's mostly just CCP stooges and the wackier conspiracy theorists. That's why none of them have managed to make sense.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 6:30pm:

It's mostly just CCP stooges and the wackier conspiracy theorists. That's why none of them have managed to make sense.

Quote:

CCP stooges and the wackier conspiracy theorists. That's why none of them have managed to make sense.

Great I was starting to wonder why it all sounded so wacky. I was wondering if it was just me.

The CCP stooges actually sound like bots to me.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 1:19am:

I'm certain Putin does not want to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, not least because Russia is a shell of its former USSR self. Putin lied about the invasion, almost right up until the day of the invasion, he then informed the Russian people of his special military operation because Ukraine had been taken over by Nazis. Five days after the war began, he claimed Russia was not occupying any Ukrainian territory. He claimed that Russia was under attack. He claimed Ukrainians were committing genocide against Russians in Ukraine. He unleashed a massive propaganda campaign in Russia and outlawed any reporting on the war that doesn't follow the Kremlin line - even criminalising calling the SMO a war. He claimed the genocides uncovered by advancing Ukrainians were staged and that dead civilians were actors. His lying has been so prolific it has descended into a ridiculous farce in itself when he endorsed the notion that Ukraine had been taken over by gay Nazis. Putin's entire reason for the war and the excuses he has had to invent due to his administration's incompetence have been a conga line of lies and misinformation. If it was all about NATO, why the need for all the lies?

Please! Let's not talk about the lies countries use to justify their military actions. Especially, countries of the west. Would you like a list of all the lies(WMD's, Bay of Pigs, Gulf of Tongan Incident, Syrian president gassing his own people), half-truths, assassination attempts(Castro), executions(Hussein, Bin Laden), provocations, murders(Soleimani), election tampering(covertly and overtly), foreign government overthrows(Bolivia, Iran, Guatemala, Columbia, Afghanistan),
and the unlawful foreign occupations by NATO and the West(Syria, Iraq)? Their lies almost make Trump look like a saint!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_the_United_States
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-the-us-has-overthrown

I think you're just parroting elements of the western narrative. And completely ignoring context. If you are looking for the truth, you must look OUTSIDE of the Western Hegemony. There are many independent media sources I could recommend.

With all due respect, I think you have drunk too much of the Western propaganda Kool-Aid." Especially, if you still believe that Putin's goal is to rebuild the Warsaw Pact. Or, that he fears the west. And, I seriously doubt that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic, would be willing to join an economic system that is a proven failure! Putin is not bat-s**t delusional, and neither are the leaders of those countries.

I'm not interested in the lies that you claim Putin has said to justify this war. Your premises only support your obvious confirmation bias. All countries lie to justify their military actions. Countries will always be willing to accept an uncomfortable lie, before they will accept an uncomfortable truth. It is the lies that will spin their narrative.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/the-military-untruth-complex/
https://tayloroconnor.medium.com/lies-used-to-justify-war-and-how-to-dismantle-them-d0495ed6bac8

My point is, that nations have no right to choose which country they will support militarily. The West and NATO are NOT the world's police! What is the legal precedent here, that allows 20 foreign nations, to provide the arms, training, and the intelligence, to kill the opposing combatants? Maybe we should also start supplying arms to Taiwan, Sahel, Ethiopia, or Yemen? It seems to me, that the only people laughing all the way to the bank, are the war profiteers.

But we are not talking about just any country. We are talking about the number one nuclear weapons' country in the world. And, 20 NATO nations killing Russian soldiers by the thousands, is NOT going to end well. This is NOT our affair. This is between Russia and the Ukraine. Fears of what Putin might do, or want to do after the Ukraine, are the real lies.

Without our interference, the Ukraine would NOT be almost completely decimated. Would NOT have over 8M refugees. Would NOT have over 20K dead. Because this war would have ended in only a few months. But Russia never expected NATO to interfere, and prolong the war, and increase the number of body bags. Or, do you think that the Ukraine could win a war against Russia, with only their resolve?  

Of course, IF NATO had stopped their expansion into E. Europe(as it promised); and IF they didn't completely ignore and dismiss all of Russia's warnings; and IF the EU and the IMF had provided the fundings that the Ukraine needed, we would NOT be in this situation. But none of this happed, did it?

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 7:23pm:

With all due respect, I think you have drunk too much of the Western propaganda Kool-Aid." Especially, if you still believe that Putin's goal is to rebuild the Warsaw Pact. Or, that he fears the west. And, I seriously doubt that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic, would be willing to join an economic system that is a proven failure! Putin is not bat-s**t delusional, and neither are the leaders of those countries.

You need to get your fingers out of it and reply to what I post.

I didn't post Putin wanted to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, but you knew that - it's why you can't add a post of mine.

You threw in Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic to my reference to Hungary and Serbia.

Inventing a narrative to fit a justification is what you're railing against, isn't it?

Why are you doing it?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 7:34pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:23pm: With all due respect, I think you have drunk too much of the Western propaganda Kool-Aid." Especially, if you still believe that Putin's goal is to rebuild the Warsaw Pact. Or, that he fears the west. And, I seriously doubt that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic, would be willing to join an economic system that is a proven failure! Putin is not bat-s**t delusional, and neither are the leaders of those countries. You need to get your fingers out of it and reply to what I post. I didn't post Putin wanted to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, but you knew that - it's why you can't add a post of mine. You threw in Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic to my reference to Hungary and Serbia. Inventing a narrative to fit a justification is what you're railing against, isn't it? Why are you doing it?

The thing you all completely neglect is that when Putin came to office in the 1990's about the first thing he committed to was to put the old USSR back together again.

This is what we are seeing as simple as that. Nothing to do with any of the page after page of rubbish that has been posted.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 7:45pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:34pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:23pm: With all due respect, I think you have drunk too much of the Western propaganda Kool-Aid." Especially, if you still believe that Putin's goal is to rebuild the Warsaw Pact. Or, that he fears the west. And, I seriously doubt that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic, would be willing to join an economic system that is a proven failure! Putin is not bat-s**t delusional, and neither are the leaders of those countries. You need to get your fingers out of it and reply to what I post. I didn't post Putin wanted to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, but you knew that - it's why you can't add a post of mine. You threw in Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic to my reference to Hungary and Serbia. Inventing a narrative to fit a justification is what you're railing against, isn't it? Why are you doing it? The thing you all completely neglect is that when Putin came to office in the 1990's about the first thing he committed to was to put the old USSR back together again.

Putin may as well commit to putting Humpty Dumpty back together again.

If he can't defeat Ukraine with Russia's entire conventional military, how could he take on even the Baltics if they were on their own, let alone Poland?

Whatever he may have thought about a resurgent 'USSR' in the early 1990s, he's definitely been disabused of it in the early 2020s.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 1:19am:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 11:34pm:   Russia has absolutely no interest in rebuilding the Warsaw Pact(or the old USSR). Putin has said so on numerous occasions. Do you know WHY Russia abandoned the Warsaw pact in the first place? And, NATO still continues to lie to Moscow, about limiting its expansion into Eastern Europe. I'm certain Putin does not want to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, not least because Russia is a shell of its former USSR self. Putin lied about the invasion, almost right up until the day of the invasion, he then informed the Russian people of his special military operation because Ukraine had been taken over by Nazis. Five days after the war began, he claimed Russia was not occupying any Ukrainian territory. He claimed that Russia was under attack. He claimed Ukrainians were committing genocide against Russians in Ukraine. He unleashed a massive propaganda campaign in Russia and outlawed any reporting on the war that doesn't follow the Kremlin line - even criminalising calling the SMO a war. He claimed the genocides uncovered by advancing Ukrainians were staged and that dead civilians were actors. His lying has been so prolific it has descended into a ridiculous farce in itself when he endorsed the notion that Ukraine had been taken over by gay Nazis. Putin's entire reason for the war and the excuses he has had to invent due to his administration's incompetence have been a conga line of lies and misinformation. If it was all about NATO, why the need for all the lies?

I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims.

Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!!

Were 20 foreign nations conducting a proxy war against Russia? Absolutely!!

Are Russian soldiers being killed by military weapons being supplied by foreign nations? Absolutely.

If the Ukraine joined the EU or NATO, could the West place more missiles along the Russia's borders? Absolutely!!

Do you think that Putin would launch a nuclear attack, if he feels that the sovereignty of Russia will be destroyed? Absolutely!!

Is Zelensky calling for NATO forces to start attacking Russia directly? Absolutely!

No country can win a conventional war against 30 other countries. And, it has nothing to do with their competency. Over 50 countries were fighting against 3 countries in WWII. And, WWI was even more lopsided.

https://www.thoughtco.com/countries-involved-in-world-war-1-1222074

How does the war in the Ukraine directly affect anyone of us? What do we gain, or lose, if Russia takes over the Ukraine? Absolutely nothing!! How does this war affect any aspects of our daily lives? So why the heck are we willing to risk forcing Putin's nuclear hand?

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 8:08pm:

I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims. Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!!

If Ukraine posed an actual existential threat, why did Putin stop short of declaring war on Ukraine, defining it instead as a special military operation (whatever that actually means)?

Why does Putin even ban the term 'war' in the context of Ukraine?

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 7:23pm:

Of course, IF NATO had stopped their expansion into E. Europe(as it promised); and IF they didn't completely ignore and dismiss all of Russia's warnings; and IF the EU and the IMF had provided the fundings that the Ukraine needed, we would NOT be in this situation. But none of this happed, did it?

If If If. The EU and the US tried to talk Lavrov and Putin out of invading with a force Lavrov said was merely on exercises. Putin intended to invade after the events of 2014 in Ukraine. Lavrov clutches at straws as they become available to him, supplied by the America haters and remnants of the "peace movement." NATO is not the other side of a coin with the Russian Federation. There is no comparison. NATO is a powerful defensive pact to protect Europe and the Atlantic seaways from Stalinists and their heirs, and you think the world would be better off without it? Your kind grew up in the world NATO protected, a world that tolerated, even encouraged the peace movement whose influence reached highest levels of the EU, dismantling defense budgets and integrating economically with the Russians, as "IF" that would placate their leadership's paranoia.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 7:34pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:23pm: With all due respect, I think you have drunk too much of the Western propaganda Kool-Aid." Especially, if you still believe that Putin's goal is to rebuild the Warsaw Pact. Or, that he fears the west. And, I seriously doubt that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic, would be willing to join an economic system that is a proven failure! Putin is not bat-s**t delusional, and neither are the leaders of those countries. You need to get your fingers out of it and reply to what I post. I didn't post Putin wanted to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, but you knew that - it's why you can't add a post of mine. You threw in Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic to my reference to Hungary and Serbia. Inventing a narrative to fit a justification is what you're railing against, isn't it? Why are you doing it?

Gaslighting? Really! I apologize if I have misrepresented your beliefs in Putin's motive for this war. I'll have to go back and re-read your posts. I don't invent narratives. I try to stick to the facts, and state its relevancy within the proper context. I mentioned these satellite states because they were once members of the Warsaw Pact. I didn't mention Serbia, because it was never a member of the pact.   

Was there any other points/questions that you might want to address? For example, what is the legal justification, allowing NATO to arm nations during an armed conflict? Are these nations now co-combatants? Or, maybe you can address the huge refugee problems? Or, maybe the almost complete decimation of the Ukraine's critical infrastructure? Or, maybe some other important point, including prolonging this war, and provoking a nuclear exchange?

I feel sorry for the Ukraine. Just like most other nations that NATO and the US have interfered in, the Ukraine will also be abandoned to fend for themselves.

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 8:58pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:34pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:23pm: With all due respect, I think you have drunk too much of the Western propaganda Kool-Aid." Especially, if you still believe that Putin's goal is to rebuild the Warsaw Pact. Or, that he fears the west. And, I seriously doubt that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic, would be willing to join an economic system that is a proven failure! Putin is not bat-s**t delusional, and neither are the leaders of those countries. You need to get your fingers out of it and reply to what I post. I didn't post Putin wanted to rebuild the Warsaw Pact, but you knew that - it's why you can't add a post of mine. You threw in Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and the Czech Republic to my reference to Hungary and Serbia. Inventing a narrative to fit a justification is what you're railing against, isn't it? Why are you doing it? Gaslighting? Really! I apologize if I have misrepresented your beliefs in Putin's motive for this war. I'll have to go back and re-read your posts. I don't invent narratives. I try to stick to the facts, and state its relevancy within the proper context. I mentioned these satellite states because they were once members of the Warsaw Pact. I didn't mention Serbia, because it was never a member of the pact.    Was there any other points/questions that you might want to address? For example, what is the legal justification, allowing NATO to arm nations during an armed conflict? Are these nations now co-combatants? Or, maybe you can address the huge refugee problems? Or, maybe the almost complete decimation of the Ukraine's critical infrastructure? Or, maybe some other important point, including prolonging this war, and provoking a nuclear exchange? I feel sorry for the Ukraine. Just like most other nations that NATO and the US have interfered in, the Ukraine will also be abandoned to fend for themselves.

There's something mechanical and bot-like about 'ShellShilo'.

I'm guessing Russian or Chinese.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 8:18pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:08pm: I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims. Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!! If Ukraine posed an actual existential threat, why did Putin stop short of declaring war on Ukraine, defining it instead as a special military operation (whatever that actually means)? Why does Putin even ban the term 'war' in the context of Ukraine?

The Ukraine poses absolutely zero threat to Russia. But, if the Ukraine became a member of the EU or NATO, more NATO missiles would soon be along the Russian borders. The US would soon install its missiles facing Moscow. This is the existential threat! Remember what America did when Russian missiles were placed in Cuba? And, Cuba was completely justified in wanting missiles to defend themselves(Bay of Pigs). More US double standards. Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles.

Why can't anyone just look at the facts? Maybe it is the NATO/US good, and Russia/China/N. Korea bad, indoctrinated mindset.

Quote:

Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles.

So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat?

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 9:13pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:18pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:08pm: I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims. Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!! If Ukraine posed an actual existential threat, why did Putin stop short of declaring war on Ukraine, defining it instead as a special military operation (whatever that actually means)? Why does Putin even ban the term 'war' in the context of Ukraine? The Ukraine poses absolutely zero threat to Russia. But, if the Ukraine became a member of the EU or NATO, more NATO missiles would soon be along the Russian borders. The US would soon install its missiles facing Moscow. This is the existential threat! Remember what America did when Russian missiles were placed in Cuba? And, Cuba was completely justified in wanting missiles to defend themselves(Bay of Pigs). More US double standards. Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. Why can't anyone just look at the facts? Maybe it is the NATO/US good, and Russia/China/N. Korea bad, indoctrinated mindset.

So, are you running 'ShellShilo' out of Russia or China?

issuevoter wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 8:37pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:23pm: Of course, IF NATO had stopped their expansion into E. Europe(as it promised); and IF they didn't completely ignore and dismiss all of Russia's warnings; and IF the EU and the IMF had provided the fundings that the Ukraine needed, we would NOT be in this situation. But none of this happed, did it? If If If. The EU and the US tried to talk Lavrov and Putin out of invading with a force Lavrov said was merely on exercises. Putin intended to invade after the events of 2014 in Ukraine. Lavrov clutches at straws as they become available to him, supplied by the America haters and remnants of the "peace movement." NATO is not the other side of a coin with the Russian Federation. There is no comparison. NATO is a powerful defensive pact to protect Europe and the Atlantic seaways from Stalinists and their heirs, and you think the world would be better off without it? Your kind grew up in the world NATO protected, a world that tolerated, even encouraged the peace movement whose influence reached highest levels of the EU, dismantling defense budgets and integrating economically with the Russians, as "IF" that would placate their leadership's paranoia.

All I'm saying is, IF the good guys(world police) that I should prostrate myself before in thanks, should force Russia to push the nuclear button, then all of this blind loyalist fanatism will become meaningless.

I don't give a damn about Russia or Putin. But I DO give a damn about what Russia and Putin can do. And, it is absolutely an unnecessary and stupid risk to keep provoking both!

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 9:32pm:

All I'm saying is, IF the good guys(world police) that I should prostrate myself before in thanks, should force Russia to push the nuclear button, then all of this blind loyalist fanatism will become meaningless. I don't give a damn about Russia or Putin. But I DO give a damn about what Russia and Putin can do. And, it is absolutely an unnecessary and stupid risk to keep provoking both!

When you do the hokey-cokey, which leg do you choose? Your left or right?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 9:17pm:

Quote: Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat?

Because the Ukrainians can launch these missiles into Russia. And, kill Russian people. And, NATO can say that they only provided the missile, and NOT used them. Russia has every reason to feel threatened!

Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could?

Why was Russian missiles in Cuba an existential threat to the US?

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 9:44pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:17pm: Quote: Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat? Because the Ukrainians can launch these missiles into Russia. And, kill Russian people. And, NATO can say that they only provided the missile, and NOT used them. Russia has every reason to feel threatened! Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could? Why was Russian missiles in Cuba an existential threat to the US?

Does Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da mean 'life goes on' in both Russian and Ukrainian or only among 3-legged reindeer?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 8:18pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:08pm: I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims. Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!! If Ukraine posed an actual existential threat, why did Putin stop short of declaring war on Ukraine, defining it instead as a special military operation (whatever that actually means)? Why does Putin even ban the term 'war' in the context of Ukraine?

Window dressing for the Russian people. He wanted the Russian people to think that he was going into Ukraine to help and not to conquer as it was in reality.

He expected it to take a week or two and that he would get away with it.

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 9:44pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:17pm: Quote: Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat? Because the Ukrainians can launch these missiles into Russia. And, kill Russian people. And, NATO can say that they only provided the missile, and NOT used them. Russia has every reason to feel threatened! Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could? Why was Russian missiles in Cuba an existential threat to the US?

Quote:

Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could?

Of course he should, The Russians have sent thousands of missiles into Ukraine why shouldn't they respond in kind. With the capability they should take out Russian city power, infrastructure and military sites - give them a dose of their own medicine and see how they like that.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 10:40pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:18pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:08pm: I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims. Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!! If Ukraine posed an actual existential threat, why did Putin stop short of declaring war on Ukraine, defining it instead as a special military operation (whatever that actually means)? Why does Putin even ban the term 'war' in the context of Ukraine? Window dressing for the Russian people. He wanted the Russian people to think that he was going into Ukraine to help and not to conquer as it was in reality. He expected it to take a week or two and that he would get away with it.

So, there was no actual existential threat to Russia and Russians at all, then - it was an opportunistic land grab that owes more to innate Russian paranoia about the possibility of a threat and instinctive, expansionist Russian imperialism than an objective assessment of reality.

Dnarever wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 10:46pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:44pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:17pm: Quote: Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat? Because the Ukrainians can launch these missiles into Russia. And, kill Russian people. And, NATO can say that they only provided the missile, and NOT used them. Russia has every reason to feel threatened! Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could? Why was Russian missiles in Cuba an existential threat to the US? [quote]Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could?

Of course he should, The Russians have sent thousands of missiles into Ukraine why shouldn't they respond in kind. With the capability they should take out Russian city power, infrastructure and military sites - give them a dose of their own medicine and see how they like that. [/quote]
In this post, you're interacting with a, likely Chinese, AI bot.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 11:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 10:46pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:44pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:17pm: Quote: Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat? Because the Ukrainians can launch these missiles into Russia. And, kill Russian people. And, NATO can say that they only provided the missile, and NOT used them. Russia has every reason to feel threatened! Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could? Why was Russian missiles in Cuba an existential threat to the US? [quote]Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could? Of course he should, The Russians have sent thousands of missiles into Ukraine why shouldn't they respond in kind. With the capability they should take out Russian city power, infrastructure and military sites - give them a dose of their own medicine and see how they like that.

In this post, you're interacting with a, likely Chinese, AI bot.
[/quote]

I Know.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 11:02pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 10:40pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:18pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 8:08pm: I'm not sure of the context of any of your truth claims. Was Putin justified in his belief that an existential threat existed against Russia? Absolutely!! If Ukraine posed an actual existential threat, why did Putin stop short of declaring war on Ukraine, defining it instead as a special military operation (whatever that actually means)? Why does Putin even ban the term 'war' in the context of Ukraine? Window dressing for the Russian people. He wanted the Russian people to think that he was going into Ukraine to help and not to conquer as it was in reality. He expected it to take a week or two and that he would get away with it. So, there was no actual existential threat to Russia and Russians at all, then - it was an opportunistic land grab that owes more to innate Russian paranoia about the possibility of a threat and instinctive, expansionist Russian imperialism than an objective assessment of reality.

Quote:

So, there was no actual existential threat to Russia and Russians at all, then

Exactly.

Unless you want to consider that Ukraine defending against the previous invasion and occupation of Crimea. Effectively there was already one Russian invasion of Ukraine in progress and this is really only opening a second front to their previous 2014 invasion.

Bwahahahaha
Shilo states facts and you call him/her a bot.
Bwahahahahaha.

Western nation populations are so farrking nieve.



Who's the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in conflict?
And you lot are fair up their arse to use more.
It's quite concerning really.
Put it down to stupid old men. That's all you lot are. Stupid old hypnotised morons cheering on a terrorist organisation.

Stop nuclear conflict now.
That is all that matters.

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 9:44pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 9:17pm: Quote: Russia is almost surrounded by NATO missiles. So why are missiles in Ukraine suddenly an existential threat? Because the Ukrainians can launch these missiles into Russia. And, kill Russian people. And, NATO can say that they only provided the missile, and NOT used them. Russia has every reason to feel threatened! Do you think that Zelensky wouldn't use NATO missiles to attack Moscow if he could? Why was Russian missiles in Cuba an existential threat to the US?

Now that Russia is invading, of course he would use whatever he could. But defending yourself against a Russian invasion is not the same thing as being an existential threat to Russia. That's just crazy talk. Even if Ukraine has a clear conventional military victory over Russia in the near future, they won't be rolling into Moscow. Neither the Russian nor the Ukrainian people have an actual appetite for this war, and unlike Putin, Ukraine's leaders are answerable to the will of the people.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 5:04am:

Bwahahahaha Shilo states facts and you call him/her a bot. Bwahahahahaha. Western nation populations are so farrking nieve. Who's the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in conflict? And you lot are fair up their arse to use more. It's quite concerning really. Put it down to stupid old men. That's all you lot are. Stupid old hypnotised morons cheering on a terrorist organisation. Stop nuclear conflict now. That is all that matters.

Can't recognise AI-generated text, then. Start practising to recognise it using ChatGPT.

It's facts (always written with 'confidence') are very often wrong.

Check this out - a Chat CPT response to: 'How many unique images of Queen Elizabeth can be found on Australian banknotes?'

ChatGPT's response:[olist]There are six unique images of Queen Elizabeth II that can be found on Australian banknotes. These images are:

The Queen's portrait as a young woman on the $5 note.
The Queen's portrait in middle age on the $10 note.
The Queen's portrait as an older woman on the $20 note
The Queen's portrait wearing the Australian Wattle brooch on the $50 note.
The Queen's portrait wearing the Australian Akubra hat on the $100 note.
The Queen's portrait as a young girl on the polymer $5 note, which was introduced in 2016 to replace the paper version of the note.

Each of these images was created by a different artist and reflects a different era in Queen Elizabeth's life and reign.
[/olist]There were a few giveaways in 'shellshilo's' responses in this thread, one being its confusion about the Warsaw Pact in response to references io Hungary and Serbia. Its algorithm determined the post was about the Warsaw Pact and its re-establishment.

Shellshilo is a Chinese AI bot.

Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 7:04am:

Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person.

Yes.

Another one, with Chinese bots at least, tends to be that they are (dare I say it), bots with Chinese characteristics.

On the matter of war, CCP-driven bots almost exclusively 'emotionally' focus on nuclear war. The likely reason is: the CCP's military would be as effective in war as a Boys' Scouts jamboree - something the CCP is well aware of, so it has its bots focus on the one thing it has - nuclear weapons - and then focuses on obliquely reminding us of that.

It reveals the CCP's Achilles heel - a piss weak military that is all about facade, farce and face.

ShellShiloh posted REAMS of anti vaxxer stuff in my fine forum. Didn’t think it might be a bot tho.

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 8:27am:

ShellShiloh posted REAMS of anti vaxxer stuff in my fine forum. Didn’t think it might be a bot tho.

It seems to too often miss the mark and is too well referenced. It seems strange to be both not comprehending the point it is responding to and to have a ream of well researched referenced material at hand. It shows simultaneously a low to moderate intelligence and a highly trained and educated brain. 

The format / structure indicates someone a lot smarter than the comprehension level displayed. It could be someone using a tool to generate the answer.

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 5:04am:

Western nation populations are so farrking nieve. Who's the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in conflict? And you lot are fair up their arse to use more. It's quite concerning really. Put it down to stupid old men. That's all you lot are. Stupid old hypnotised morons cheering on a terrorist organisation.

Who's military makes global trade possible? And it ain't Leichtenstein.

How do goods get from one side of the world to the other without being stolen, or hijacked, or the ships carrying them getting pirated and confiscated by latter-day tin pot robber barons and their states?

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 7:04am:

Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person.

Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 10:28am:

freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 7:04am: Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person. Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌

Thank you Lisa. I really enjoy Jordan's work. He reminds me of the "Planet American" show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJ7CSRRCDM

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 6:51pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 10:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 7:04am: Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person. Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌 Thank you Lisa. I really enjoy Jordan's work. He reminds me of the "Planet American" show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJ7CSRRCDM 

Yes Jordan is brilliant, and obviously difficult to counter by someone like Clive. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 9:07pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 6:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 10:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 7:04am: Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person. Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌 Thank you Lisa. I really enjoy Jordan's work. He reminds me of the "Planet American" show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJ7CSRRCDM  Yes Jordan is brilliant, and obviously difficult to counter by someone like Clive.

Responding to a Chinese AI bot, eh! What a surprise! Not!

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 9:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 9:07pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 6:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 10:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 7:04am: Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person. Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌 Thank you Lisa. I really enjoy Jordan's work. He reminds me of the "Planet American" show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJ7CSRRCDM  Yes Jordan is brilliant, and obviously difficult to counter by someone like Clive.  Responding to a Chinese AI bot, eh! What a surprise! Not!

I'll bite: who is the 'AI bot' (Chinese or otherwise), and what is being responded to (other than a clearly brilliant Jordan Shanks  take down of Clive Palmer?).

Oh...  I remember -  the reference to the CCP in the video....a long shot, Meister 

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 5:12pm:

Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 3:51pm: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 11:36am: Captain Caveman wrote on Mar 8th, 2023 at 5:19am: philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 10:23am: issuevoter wrote on Mar 4th, 2023 at 12:20pm: Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists. Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021. However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies. The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too. Bullshit....The only people defending Putin are Gordon and his ilk from the right....Where has anyone on the Left defended Putin??? :-? :-? :-? Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard. Yes it is cock sucker....When you claim Russia is innocent and the West are responsible for Russian planes and tanks attacking Ukraine you are defending Putin you dickhead....You are a pathetic piece of crap aren't you??? ::) ::) ::) Bwahahahaha. America have been doing this around the world for years. Not my problem you're to God damned retarded to see whats going on. Keep licking cnn windows. They're all dirty to the core. I thought it was lefty's defending Putin not half wit right wing arseholes??? Communist....Putin has you sucked in!!! :) :) :)

Firstly Communism has been banned in Russia since 1991. And, since 1993 Russia has been a Constitutional Federal Republic. And secondly, Communism is a Left-wing ideology, not a Right-wing.

I'm certainly no type of bot(whatever that means). And, I DO research everything that I post. I don't want to look like an idiot when my points are challenged. I certainly may be autistic. But at my age who gives a s**t! Since I am also NOT that good a creative writer, I certainly might misinterpret some your comments. But, I will always respond to what a person says, and never to HOW a person says it. This is NOT a creative writing forum.

I'll speak more about this silly nonsense later. 

I am under no illusion, that after decades of anti-Russian depictions and propaganda by America(and its NATO lackey), that I will ever make a dent in the cognitive bias of the typical red white and blue toady sycophant. They will always find a way to rationalize and justify anything that the US does as good or necessary. Including, foreign executions, war crimes(Abu Ghraib), murders(Soleimani), covert terrorism, illegal foreign occupation(Syria), racism, or even forcing regime changes, and overthrowing governments.

I have absolutely zero respect for any country where its leaders can continually, and openly lie to its people. And still, the people continue to believe it(WMD's, the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, Bay of Pigs, etc.).

I have absolutely zero respect for any country that has roughly 750 foreign military bases in over 80 countries. This is 3 times the number of foreign military bases, than all the other countries COMBINED(Russia has 36).

I have zero respect for a country that always runs its government at a budget deficit(spends more than it receives). And, is the most indebted nation on the planet($32T in national debt, NOT total debt!). The total amount of circulating money in the world is around $40T.

I have zero respect for a country that keeps promising domestic/foreign policy reforms every election year, but delivers nothing(minimum wages, universal healthcare, cheaper drugs, etc.). No change!

I have zero respect for a country that must be the military bitch for the no.1 terrorist country in the world(Saudi Arabia). If the US refuses, the Saudis could change the petrol dollars from $US to another currency. This would not only cripple the US's "floating dollar" economy, but the US could no longer threaten any country with sanctions. In fact, other countries could now threaten the US with sanctions.

I have zero respect for any country that ignores its own Constitution whenever it suits them(Congressional approval for all foreign military actions).

I have zero respect for any country that lies, breaks treaties(Iran), or abandons allies(Kurds, Iraq, Gaddafi), whenever it suits their latest agenda.

Finally, I have zero respect for any country that could elect an openly bigoted, racist, misogynistic, narcissistic, twice impeached,  lying conman as their leader. And later, elect a senile octogenarian as their next leader. Clearly, Americans are NOT serious about having social changes. They just love watching the soapy-like political shows, and hearing again the same promises for change every 4 years. Or, MOTSS.

Anyway, back to the topic. There are four reasons why the US/NATO should abandon this insanity. IMHO

One. There is no legal/NATO/international statute, that directly gives any country the right to arm, or provide military support to any countries engaged in a military conflict. Arming nations for defense-only, ignores the actual cause for the conflict in the first place. And, it sets a very dangerous precedence for other nations to follow.

Should NATO/US adopt the policy of defending any nations being attacked by another nation? Did this alliance provide defensive assistance to the Palestinians, when they were being attacked by Israel? How about the Kurds in Iraq, or the Houthi rebels in Yemen? Where was this defensive support from NATO??

Two. NATO/US armed support, may be killing more Russian soldiers, but it is also prolonging the conflict, creating a refugee crisis, destroying/razing the entire country, and increasing the number of Ukrainian body bags. With no exit strategy in sight, this proxy conflict may come down to the LAST Ukrainian standing! 

Three. There are 5 NATO Democratic countries that border Russia. All are armed with nukes or other missiles aimed at Moscow. NATO has always claimed that their military exercises, and armaments are for defense only(just like Cuba claimed about its missiles). So Russia should NOT feel an existential threat to their security? Are you kidding??

Four. Russia has around 2K tactical nukes. The US has around 200 tactical nukes. The US is now sending its watered-down nukes into the fray. What do you think will happen, when the US tells that star-struck idiotic US puppet(Zelensky), that he should use these weapons only as defensive weapons? And, who do you think Russia will blame when they are used against Russian soldiers? This is how the US strategizes. "Plausible Deniability"!! It's the true American way!!

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-us-lowers-nuclear-threshold-by-deploying-new-nuclear-bombs-europe-2022-10-29/#:~:text=Russia%20has%20about%202%2C000%20working,Turkey%2C%20Belgium%20and%20the%20Netherlands.

Since nobody chooses any of the circumstances of their birth(place, race, gender, time, etc.), nationalism and patriotism produces only the arrogance that foster elitism, and aggression towards other nations. This conflict has nothing to do with me. But if we keep upping the intensity of this conflict, only the Ukrainian people will suffer. The Ukraine has already lost almost 30% of its territory. And, if we keep bragging about the number of Russians killed, and about Russian incompetence, this conflict will have everything to do with me. And, the rest of the world.

This will go down in history, as the nuclear war we could've easily avoided. But don't worry! Biden said, that he doesn't think Putin will use tactical nukes! No matter how much we provoke him! 


   

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 10:19pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 9:58pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 9:07pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 6:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 10:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 7:04am: Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person. Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌 Thank you Lisa. I really enjoy Jordan's work. He reminds me of the "Planet American" show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJ7CSRRCDM  Yes Jordan is brilliant, and obviously difficult to counter by someone like Clive.  Responding to a Chinese AI bot, eh! What a surprise! Not! I'll bite: who is the 'AI bot' (Chinese or otherwise), and what is being responded to (other than a clearly brilliant Jordan Shanks  take down of Clive Palmer?). Oh...  I remember -  the reference to the CCP in the video....a long shot, Meister

We used to get regular drive by spammers in the Europe and global boards. Posting on topics like Ukraine and other mostly eastern European stuff. This was before the most recent flare up. At the time I couldn't figure out what it was about. But I now suspect it was Russian propaganda bots. They would post a very lengthy article and then disappear, never returning. Sometimes when I googled the article I could not find it anywhere else.

Since then the CCP stooges like you have turned up, blurring the lines even further.

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 7:37am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 10:19pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 9:58pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 9:07pm: ShellShilo wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 6:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 10:28am: freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 7:04am: Another giveaway is lack of genuine engagement. The bots can imitate humans in a one-off, one way dialogue. Rather well, and it is a bit scary TBH. But as soon as there is any back and forth requiring it to understand what the other person is saying or demonstrate understanding of what they themselves are saying, they fail miserably. So they tend to "blurt out" an endless succession of sometimes-relevant facts. They are a bit like a barely-functional autistic person. Ahhh like Jordan Shanks then. Gotcha 👌 Thank you Lisa. I really enjoy Jordan's work. He reminds me of the "Planet American" show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJ7CSRRCDM  Yes Jordan is brilliant, and obviously difficult to counter by someone like Clive.  Responding to a Chinese AI bot, eh! What a surprise! Not! I'll bite: who is the 'AI bot' (Chinese or otherwise), and what is being responded to (other than a clearly brilliant Jordan Shanks  take down of Clive Palmer?). Oh...  I remember -  the reference to the CCP in the video....a long shot, Meister  We used to get regular drive by spammers in the Europe and global boards. Posting on topics like Ukraine and other mostly eastern European stuff. This was before the most recent flare up. At the time I couldn't figure out what it was about. But I now suspect it was Russian propaganda bots. They would post a very lengthy article and then disappear, never returning. Sometimes when I googled the article I could not find it anywhere else. Since then the CCP stooges like you have turned up, blurring the lines even further.

Ah...thanks, that explains my confusion re Meister's comment (being aware of your ideological blinkers and all...)

....parroting decades old communist propaganda about the evils of capitalism and what a dirt poor place America is. It got even funnier when you tried to garner sympathy for Australia's poor, when our unemployment benefits are several times higher than the median Chinese wage.

I can see how they managed to hoodwink people back then, but are the Chinese still stupid enough to believe that crap? Or are you trying to convince us?

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 10^th, 2023 at 11:56pm:

I am under no illusion, that after decades of anti-Russian depictions and propaganda by America(and its NATO lackey), that I will ever make a dent in the cognitive bias of the typical red white and blue toady sycophant. They will always find a way to rationalize and justify anything that the US does as good or necessary. Including, foreign executions, war crimes(Abu Ghraib), murders(Soleimani), covert terrorism, illegal foreign occupation(Syria), racism, or even forcing regime changes, and overthrowing governments.

If mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey, a kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 10:09am:

....parroting decades old communist propaganda about the evils of capitalism and what a dirt poor place America is. It got even funnier when you tried to garner sympathy for Australia's poor, when our unemployment benefits are several times higher than the median Chinese wage. I can see how they managed to hoodwink people back then, but are the Chinese still stupid enough to believe that crap? Or are you trying to convince us?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. We are way past lateral thinking and open-mindedness! What communist propaganda are you talking about?? Have you ever been to America? A country where the people would sell their mother for a bigger tip. Have you ever visited the projects(subsidized housing), or the soup-kitchens and half-way houses in the US? Have you ever had to stepped over the beggars outside of the post office? A country where 1 in 8 children face hunger everyday. Feel free to correct any facts that you might feel are incorrect. Is this the communist propaganda that you mean??

https://moveforhunger.org/hunger-facts?gclid=Cj0KCQiAx6ugBhCcARIsAGNmMbg1GBha3yg8vfHtWkXJF2_1KaNUQccr4-fuEyrXenRu3YlNVYOg85gaAtgFEALw_wcB

Regarding capitalism, where your individual worth is based ONLY on the amount of the capital that you can consume. The more capital you can consume, the more you are worth.

If you sell a loaf of bread for a $1 to 10 people, each person has $1 less capital. You will gain $10 more capital. Minus 50%(or less) on all the overheads, you will increase your overall capital by $5. As more and more people consume/buy more and more bread, your capital will continue to increase. And the less and less capital for the people buying the bread can consume. Therefore, capitalism in a free market system will always produce a schism between the consumers and the producers. As the producers get richer, the consumers will become poorer(unable to consume). This is an unavoidable byproduct of capitalism.

Our(?) unemployment benefits may be higher than the median wage of Chinese workers. But there are many other factors that you might want to consider. Such as the cost of living, goods and services in China. The less wages you make, the cheaper the cost of living. 

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 4:01pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2023 at 10:09am: ....parroting decades old communist propaganda about the evils of capitalism and what a dirt poor place America is. It got even funnier when you tried to garner sympathy for Australia's poor, when our unemployment benefits are several times higher than the median Chinese wage. I can see how they managed to hoodwink people back then, but are the Chinese still stupid enough to believe that crap? Or are you trying to convince us? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. We are way past lateral thinking and open-mindedness! What communist propaganda are you talking about?? Have you ever been to America? A country where the people would sell their mother for a bigger tip. Have you ever visited the projects(subsidized housing), or the soup-kitchens and half-way houses in the US? Have you ever had to stepped over the beggars outside of the post office? A country where 1 in 8 children face hunger everyday. Feel free to correct any facts that you might feel are incorrect. Is this the communist propaganda that you mean?? https://moveforhunger.org/hunger-facts?gclid=Cj0KCQiAx6ugBhCcARIsAGNmMbg1GBha3yg8vfHtWkXJF2_1KaNUQccr4-fuEyrXenRu3YlNVYOg85gaAtgFEALw_wcB Regarding capitalism, where your individual worth is based ONLY on the amount of the capital that you can consume. The more capital you can consume, the more you are worth. If you sell a loaf of bread for a $1 to 10 people, each person has $1 less capital. You will gain $10 more capital. Minus 50%(or less) on all the overheads, you will increase your overall capital by $5. As more and more people consume/buy more and more bread, your capital will continue to increase. And the less and less capital for the people buying the bread can consume. Therefore, capitalism in a free market system will always produce a schism between the consumers and the producers. As the producers get richer, the consumers will become poorer(unable to consume). This is an unavoidable byproduct of capitalism. Our(?) unemployment benefits may be higher than the median wage of Chinese workers. But there are many other factors that you might want to consider. Such as the cost of living, goods and services in China. The less wages you make, the cheaper the cost of living.

Yep. A Chinese bot.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 4:24pm:

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 11th, 2023 at 4:01pm: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2023 at 10:09am: ....parroting decades old communist propaganda about the evils of capitalism and what a dirt poor place America is. It got even funnier when you tried to garner sympathy for Australia's poor, when our unemployment benefits are several times higher than the median Chinese wage. I can see how they managed to hoodwink people back then, but are the Chinese still stupid enough to believe that crap? Or are you trying to convince us? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. We are way past lateral thinking and open-mindedness! What communist propaganda are you talking about?? Have you ever been to America? A country where the people would sell their mother for a bigger tip. Have you ever visited the projects(subsidized housing), or the soup-kitchens and half-way houses in the US? Have you ever had to stepped over the beggars outside of the post office? A country where 1 in 8 children face hunger everyday. Feel free to correct any facts that you might feel are incorrect. Is this the communist propaganda that you mean?? https://moveforhunger.org/hunger-facts?gclid=Cj0KCQiAx6ugBhCcARIsAGNmMbg1GBha3yg8vfHtWkXJF2_1KaNUQccr4-fuEyrXenRu3YlNVYOg85gaAtgFEALw_wcB Regarding capitalism, where your individual worth is based ONLY on the amount of the capital that you can consume. The more capital you can consume, the more you are worth. If you sell a loaf of bread for a $1 to 10 people, each person has $1 less capital. You will gain $10 more capital. Minus 50%(or less) on all the overheads, you will increase your overall capital by $5. As more and more people consume/buy more and more bread, your capital will continue to increase. And the less and less capital for the people buying the bread can consume. Therefore, capitalism in a free market system will always produce a schism between the consumers and the producers. As the producers get richer, the consumers will become poorer(unable to consume). This is an unavoidable byproduct of capitalism. Our(?) unemployment benefits may be higher than the median wage of Chinese workers. But there are many other factors that you might want to consider. Such as the cost of living, goods and services in China. The less wages you make, the cheaper the cost of living.  Yep. A Chinese bot.

Confirming your lack of ability for lateral thinking.

From the link:

"Over 34 million Americans face hunger each and every day including 1 in 8 children. If we think about hunger as most of us experience it, as a temporary sensation, the solution to this problem is straightforward: we just need to get more food to people who don’t have enough.

Food banks, shelters, and soup kitchens may seem like the answer to hunger in America. They are, however, a short-term and inadequate response. There has been a stunning increase in the number of emergency food programs over the last 40 years. In 1980, there were about 2 dozen food banks in the United States.

Today, there are more than 400, which serve 63,000 affiliated pantries and shelters. The growth of the emergency food system, however, has failed to solve “hunger.” Despite a spike during the Great Recession and during the pandemic, the prevalence of food insecurity has remained relatively constant over the past 28 years. Over 10% of households are food insecure, which is only a little below the 11.9% rate that was recorded in 1995, the year the federal government started keeping statistics".


Hence your nonsense about 'bots'; the last refuge of an ideologically blind 'individual sovereignty' ideologue who has already lost the debate.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 5:08pm:

Hence your nonsense about 'bots'; the last refuge of an ideologically blind 'individual sovereignty' ideologue who has already lost the debate.

AI's a bit above you, then.

China under the CCP is descending into a bigger sewer than it already was this time last year.

Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 11th, 2023 at 5:08pm: Hence your nonsense about 'bots'; the last refuge of an ideologically blind 'individual sovereignty' ideologue who has already lost the debate.    AI's a bit above you, then. China under the CCP is descending into a bigger sewer than it already was this time last year. Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired.

I sincerely hope that you are NOT an Australian. Because being an American toady sycophant is an embarrassment to all Australians. Comparing other foreign societies, based on your own societal standards, is only an exercise for the cognitively impaired.

If you were born and raised in a N. Korea, China, or Russia society, then your understanding of the language, customs, moral beliefs, norms, and rules for behavior, would be proscriptive and prescriptive. From your perspective.

In other words, your daily life in these societies, would be as normal to you, as the daily life of someone in an Australian or US society. Since this is the only life that you know. Maybe if you have lived in these countries for years, you might have a more informed understanding about what I'm saying! You may not wish to live in these societies. But the reality is, YOU DON'T! And, how they live have absolutely no effect on you.

Clearly, Western self-serving propaganda, deepities, and meaningless platitudes, ARE NOT ABOVE YOU!
   

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 11^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 11th, 2023 at 5:08pm: Hence your nonsense about 'bots'; the last refuge of an ideologically blind 'individual sovereignty' ideologue who has already lost the debate.    AI's a bit above you, then.

Maybe, maybe not: the point is the US is a dysfunctional  economy, and all you are capable of is to criticize the CCP, as if that will counter the argument that the US is a dysfunctional economy. 

[quote]China under the CCP is descending into a bigger sewer than it already was this time last year.[/quote]

Gawd blimey....right on cue.....


Quote:

Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired.

The narrative from a blind ideologue who is happy to look at the problems in other nations, while disregarding the problems in his own nation.   


Just to remind you - speaking of AI - the 'robodebt' scandal in Oz was caused by mindless conservative ideologues like you spouting the 'dole bludger' ideology.

You are complicit in the reported suicides of the most vulnerable. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 10:37am:

Quote: Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired. The narrative from a blind ideologue who is happy to look at the problems in other nations, while disregarding the problems in his own nation.

Don't you refer to the US economy?

The fact is the Chinese economy is on the verge of collapse. Even the Chinese people have woken up to that.

How could they not? Even public servants (except for those with enough guanxi with CCP seniors) haven't been paid in months.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 10:43am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 10:37am: Quote: Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired. The narrative from a blind ideologue who is happy to look at the problems in other nations, while disregarding the problems in his own nation.    Don't you refer to the US economy?

Er ...yes, of course. It's dysfunction has global consequences


Quote:

The fact is the Chinese economy is on the verge of collapse. Even the Chinese people have woken up to that.

Actually I'm also worried about the present state of the economy in China: there is a battle going on between private sector spruikers with their greedy contempt for common prosperity on the one hand (which is what we see in the US in spades),  and enlightened economists who know that public investment, not private consumption, is the better way to achieve sustainable, equitable national development


Quote:

How could they not? Even public servants (except for those with enough guanxi with CCP seniors) haven't been paid in months

Yes: the (natural) individualistic greed which is  actualized by private-sector money allocation, appears to be gaining ascendency over public sector resource allocation in China; SCMP's West-looking commentators are all bleating about Xi's 'common prosperity' driving out private entrepreneurs.

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 11:34am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 10:43am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 10:37am: Quote: Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired. The narrative from a blind ideologue who is happy to look at the problems in other nations, while disregarding the problems in his own nation.    Don't you refer to the US economy? Er ...yes, of course. It's dysfunction has global consequences [quote]The fact is the Chinese economy is on the verge of collapse. Even the Chinese people have woken up to that.

Actually I'm also worried about the present state of the economy in China: there is a battle going on between private sector spruikers with their greedy contempt for common prosperity on the one hand (which is what we see in the US in spades),  and enlightened economists who know that public investment, not private consumption, is the better way to achieve sustainable, equitable national development


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How could they not? Even public servants (except for those with enough guanxi with CCP seniors) haven't been paid in months

Yes: the (natural) individualistic greed which is  actualized by private-sector money allocation, appears to be gaining ascendency over public sector resource allocation in China; SCMP's West-looking commentators are all bleating about Xi's 'common prosperity' driving out private entrepreneurs. [/quote]
No money moves anywhere in China without the CCP approving it.

Billions have been moved out of the country to support CCP officials in the event of a CCP collapse.

They have moved all family out so an incoming regime will not be able to force them back into the country.

The people are called 'naked bureaucrats' because, in a worst-case scenario where they cannot leave the country, their money and family will at least be out. Practising the most sincere form of communism with Chinese characteristics.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 11:47am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 11:34am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 10:43am: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 10:37am: Quote: Seems the CCP has pilfered the people's health insurance so, to deal with it, now that it's out, the CCP has slashed health benefits by half. This has severely impacted all Chinese people not ranked within the CCP and further lowered the, already pitifully low, quality of life for China's massive number of poor and retired. The narrative from a blind ideologue who is happy to look at the problems in other nations, while disregarding the problems in his own nation.    Don't you refer to the US economy? Er ...yes, of course. It's dysfunction has global consequences [quote]The fact is the Chinese economy is on the verge of collapse. Even the Chinese people have woken up to that. Actually I'm also worried about the present state of the economy in China: there is a battle going on between private sector spruikers with their greedy contempt for common prosperity on the one hand (which is what we see in the US in spades),  and enlightened economists who know that public investment, not private consumption, is the better way to achieve sustainable, equitable national development [quote]How could they not? Even public servants (except for those with enough guanxi with CCP seniors) haven't been paid in months

Yes: the (natural) individualistic greed which is  actualized by private-sector money allocation, appears to be gaining ascendency over public sector resource allocation in China; SCMP's West-looking commentators are all bleating about Xi's 'common prosperity' driving out private entrepreneurs. [/quote]


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No money moves anywhere in China without the CCP approving it.

And the problem is: the CCP is increasingly diverted by Western economists into thinking private sector consumption is the way to common prosperity and sustainable development


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Billions have been moved out of the country to support CCP officials in the event of a CCP collapse.

No doubt, now that common prosperity is increasingly despised by the neuveux riche after the failure of housing, as a 'get rich quick' investment ponzi.   


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They have moved all family out so an incoming regime will not be able to force them back into the country.

Yes...terrible that all those who grew rich on Western-type  ponzi invertments in China  should be forced back to China....


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The people are called 'naked bureaucrats' because, in a worst-case scenario where they cannot leave the country, their money and family will at least be out. Practising the most sincere form of communism with Chinese characteristics.

Obviously wrong: the most sincere form - by definition -  of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics', is 'common prosperity', recommitted to by Xi after the housing as investement failure.

hence Xi said: "houses are for living in"... (not for 'get rich] investment ponzis like we have in Oz)

At least the West is open about its motivations: greed  reigns supreme. But the reckoning is approaching, as ordinary punters  are beginning to cast a closer eye over the behaviour of central bankers dedicated to serving the one percent, and threatening to take their houses and jobs via rising interest rates.

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 12:11pm:

Quote: The people are called 'naked bureaucrats' because, in a worst-case scenario where they cannot leave the country, their money and family will at least be out. Practising the most sincere form of communism with Chinese characteristics. Obviously wrong: the most sincere form - by definition -  of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics, is 'common prosperity'. At the least the West is open about its motivations: greed  reigns supreme. But the reckoning is approaching, as ordinary punters  are beginning to cast a closer eye over the behaviour of central bankers dedicated to serving the one percent. ......

Yes, I was being facetious. The only ideology that stands the test of time is self-interest. In extended family cultures, self-interest is subsumed into the family.

Make no mistake that the CCP is taking care of its own 1%

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 12:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 12:11pm: Quote: The people are called 'naked bureaucrats' because, in a worst-case scenario where they cannot leave the country, their money and family will at least be out. Practising the most sincere form of communism with Chinese characteristics. Obviously wrong: the most sincere form - by definition -  of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics, is 'common prosperity'. At the least the West is open about its motivations: greed  reigns supreme. But the reckoning is approaching, as ordinary punters  are beginning to cast a closer eye over the behaviour of central bankers dedicated to serving the one percent. ......  Yes, I was being facetious. The only ideology that stands the test of time is self-interest. In extended family cultures, self-interest is subsumed into the family.

Self-interest.....so long as the government steps in when self-interest fails; let's see how the FDIC in the US deals with the current SVB failure.


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Make no mistake that the CCP is taking care of its own 1%

...in direct opposition to Xi's direction: "houses are for living in", not private wealth creation.

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 12:31pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 12:23pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 12:11pm: Quote: The people are called 'naked bureaucrats' because, in a worst-case scenario where they cannot leave the country, their money and family will at least be out. Practising the most sincere form of communism with Chinese characteristics. Obviously wrong: the most sincere form - by definition -  of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics, is 'common prosperity'. At the least the West is open about its motivations: greed  reigns supreme. But the reckoning is approaching, as ordinary punters  are beginning to cast a closer eye over the behaviour of central bankers dedicated to serving the one percent. ......  Yes, I was being facetious. The only ideology that stands the test of time is self-interest. In extended family cultures, self-interest is subsumed into the family. Self-interest.....so long as the government steps in when self-interest fails; let's see how the FDIC in the US deals with the current SVB failure. [quote]Make no mistake that the CCP is taking care of its own 1%

...in direct opposition to Xi's direction: "houses are for living in", not private wealth creation. [/quote]
The CCP government is colluding with its senior rank and file to move money and family out of China.

Firstly, Xi is isolated He is the least informed CCP official in China.

Secondly, Xi is, however, aware that CCP seniors have and are embezzling funds out of China.

Thirdly, Xi's daughter is not in China. She was moved out years ago, and apparently, she's very wealthy.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12^th, 2023 at 12:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 12:31pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 12:23pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 12:11pm: Quote: The people are called 'naked bureaucrats' because, in a worst-case scenario where they cannot leave the country, their money and family will at least be out. Practising the most sincere form of communism with Chinese characteristics. Obviously wrong: the most sincere form - by definition -  of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics, is 'common prosperity'. At the least the West is open about its motivations: greed  reigns supreme. But the reckoning is approaching, as ordinary punters  are beginning to cast a closer eye over the behaviour of central bankers dedicated to serving the one percent. ......  Yes, I was being facetious. The only ideology that stands the test of time is self-interest. In extended family cultures, self-interest is subsumed into the family. Self-interest.....so long as the government steps in when self-interest fails; let's see how the FDIC in the US deals with the current SVB failure. [quote]Make no mistake that the CCP is taking care of its own 1% ...in direct opposition to Xi's direction: "houses are for living in", not private wealth creation.

The CCP government is colluding with its senior rank and file to move money and family out of China.

Firstly, Xi is isolated He is the least informed CCP official in China.[/quote]

'Despite the fact Xi was elected unopposed as leader  for another 5 years....some "misinformation" going on there.....


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Secondly, Xi is, however, aware that CCP seniors have and are embezzling funds out of China.

"however" ....and what is he doing about it?

Certainly, he is urging the prosecution of corruption.


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Thirdly, Xi's daughter is not in China. She was moved out years ago, and apparently, she's very wealthy.

So a parent who had known absolute poverty  took pains to ensure their offspring would be insulated from an uncertain future?  Disgusting; though not quite as disgusting as those wealthy individuals in Oz who want taxpayer-funded concessions so they can bequeath oversized super accounts to their kids.