As a woman and as a mum to 2 young girls I’m absolutely disgusted that the extreme abhorrent sexual abuse and violence which has occurred has also been downplayed by the UN.

Warning : this is not an easy article to view/read.

https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-police-extreme-sexual-violence-170042340.html



JERUSALEM — The first suggestion that Hamas terrorists committed acts of extreme sexual violence and rape against victims during their Oct. 7 rampage through southern Israel came on social media early on that fateful Saturday morning six weeks ago.

Two short videos, shared by the terrorists themselves, quickly emerged showing groups of cheering Palestinian men, some armed, in the streets of Gaza crowding around half-naked and bloodied young Israeli women.

In one clip, a woman later identified as German-Israeli citizen Shani Louk, 22, can be seen barely clothed lying unconscious in an unnatural position on the flatbed of a pickup as men spit and abuse her body while screaming "Allahu Akhbar."

In another video, 19-year-old Israeli soldier Na’ama Levy is pulled from the back of a jeep by an armed gunman, her hands bound behind her back and  thick blood stains between her legs, as Palestinian men jeer at her.

Louk is now counted among the 1,200 people murdered that day, and Levy is thought to be one of an estimated 240 hostages, including babies and children, being held by the terror group inside the Palestinian enclave.



While the victims of gender-based crimes committed during that brutal attack have yet to come forward, either because they were murdered or kidnapped or are still reeling from the trauma, the Israeli police and Israel’s newly formed Civil Commission on October 7th Crimes by Hamas Against Women believe sexual violence during the terror attack was widespread, systematic and even endorsed by the Islamic fundamentalist group’s religious and spiritual leaders as permissible during war.

Yet collecting the evidence for this intimate aspect of such a massive, multilevel terror attack, which sparked total chaos inside Israel and launched a full-scale war in the Gaza Strip, has proved challenging for criminal investigators. Those investigators hope to bring detailed charges against hundreds of Hamas terrorists now being held by Israel for their role in the assault and for women’s groups, who say that violent sexual crimes in war must be documented and remembered.

"This is the biggest criminal case in Israel’s history," said David Katz, head of the Israeli police’s Lahav 443 criminal investigation’s cyber unit, which is investigating the criminal aspects of the mass atrocity.

"We are dealing with thousands of murders and other crimes," he said. He described how the crime scene, which included more than 20 locations, among them army bases, civilian communities and a sprawling music festival not far from Israel’s border with Gaza, was an active combat zone for the first 48 hours following the attack, hampering police efforts to collect forensic and other evidence.

We’re still only in the initial phases of this investigation," said Katz, describing how his team was working to collect statements from thousands of survivors. It was also going to examine more than 60,000 videos taken by the terrorists on phones and bodycams and other footage taken by victims, first responders, CCTV cameras and dashcams.

At Tuesday’s briefing, the police screened one eyewitness account of a gang rape that she said took place at the Nova Music Festival, where more than 300 people were brutally murdered and thousands were injured by hundreds of heavily armed Hamas terrorists.

The witness, identified only by the initial "S," recounted on camera that while she was hiding from the terrorists, she saw a group of them pass a woman with long brown hair among them.

I understood they were raping her," S said. "They were passing her from one person to the next. She was alive and standing on her feet. She was bleeding from her back."

S then described how one of the terrorists sliced off the woman’s breast and began playing around with it. Another, the witness said, shot the woman in the head while he was still penetrating her.

"He did not even lift up his pants and shot her in the head," S said, adding that she spied another terrorist haul a naked, dead woman over his shoulder and walk off with her. Another, she said, cut off someone’s head and was walking around with it like a trophy.

Additionally, the police shared graphic photographs and video footage from the festival showing women, charred and bloody, their underwear visibly ripped and their legs spread apart.

Videotaped interrogations of some of the captured terrorists show them confessing that they had orders to murder, rape and kidnap Israeli civilians. One suspect told Israeli interrogators he and his men had received religious permission to kill children "because they’ll grow up to be soldiers" and to decapitate "to sow fear among the Israelis."

First responders from both the Israeli military and the country’s civilian services have described in detail the disturbing brutality and atrocities carried out by an estimated 3,000 Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists who entered Israel Oct. 7.

A commander with the Israeli army’s National Rescue Unit told journalists in the initial days after the attack that he had found multiple bodies of dead women who had been stripped naked. In one case, on Kibbutz Be’eri, Col. (Res) Golan Vach, said he found two women tied together on the same bed with no clothes on.

In another case, a soldier from the army’s special forces unit who was sent to search for survivors on a kibbutz told one media outlet he found the dead bodies of two young girls together in one room.

There was a teenage girl, 14 or 15. She was lying on the floor, on her stomach, her pants were pulled down, and she was half naked. Her legs were spread out, wide open, and there was the remains of sperm on her back," he said. "Someone executed her straight after he brutally raped her.

"It was like a slap in the face," the soldier said. "It was the first time I realized that we are not acting against terrorists here, we are acting against savages."

In the morgue, too, those working to identify the dead and prepare their bodies for burial spoke about brutalities consistent with rape and sexual assault.

"We saw evidence of rape," Shari, who works with a team of female volunteers tasked with cleaning the bodies of murdered women, told Fox News Digital in a previous interview. "Pelvises were broken, and it probably takes a lot to break a pelvis. … And this was also among grandmothers down to small children. These are things we saw with our own eyes."

Speaking this week on a Zoom panel organized by the Maimonides Society at Harvard Medical School, Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy, chair of Israel’s newly formed Civil Commission on October 7th Crimes by Hamas Against Women, said her team had also been working to compile a database of gender-based atrocities "to ensure that the Oct. 7 victims of sexual and other violence against women are never forgotten and that their stories are adequately told."

Elkayam-Levy, a legal expert from Hebrew University added, "We established the commission on the eighth day of the war as more and more evidence of gruesome crimes against women and children emerged," she told the panel.

She said that even though some of Hamas’ crimes, which were broadcast in real-time on social media, "showed clear violations of international law and brutal crimes committed against women and children," there was little international condemnation.

"Therefore, we took it upon ourselves to call for recognition and action," Elkayam-Levy said. "We also realized that these crimes must be documented and brought to the attention of the international community."



The UN is saying nothing. It’s like none of this matters.

Animals can never become 'Monsters',
like what Humans can.

I'm proud of Israel.
Doing its best to stay 'professional' and 'moral' in the face of such adversity.
Nearly every other Nation, even the USA would allow its Soldiers to 'return volley' in such atrocities out of revenge, bitterness, hate, etc, etc. We know Australian Soldiers would also succumb to the 'dark side' in revenge.
But despite the effects of Technology (its not all 'sword and shield' anymore) in War and the outcomes of it being used.
Israel is not perfect, but they are trying, UNDER DURESS, to do their best.

It is hard, because many of those Palestinian 'Women & Children' are also perpetrating violence against Jews and have been this past year in a spike of behaviour as if they knew what was going to happen. It is sad that the use of words 'Women & Children' even for Palestinians is compromised by 'death'. But they are in no way 'innocent' as we know around the world currently and in the past, Women & Children 'kill' also.

There is no solution to this situation but the entire end of Palestine for they have just made the truth - that they will not stop such atrocities of violence.

The irony of all this is that when the Moslem 'Empire' of Islam finally gets its Christian sacrificial 'Messiah' out of the destruction of Religious/Military/Political France - they will put down their weapons and fold their 'Empire'.
Once they become an 'unarmed' People, no longer Terrorists or Soldiers. That's when the Mafia ruled Italians will genocide them in their millions! (too gutless to do it now though).
Moslems will pray to Allah and the world to save them from this 'Genocide' - but none shall answer, not even Allah...
...except Israel.

This is what it means to be a Jew.

they are doing what their teachings tell them to do



What we've seen in conflict in the past is that rape is often used as a weapon of war. What's very different here is that the Islamic State is not making any attempt to hide or minimize what they are doing. The rape of the Yazidi women has been now publicized in - they're official publications in pamphlets and policy memos and in manuals that they've put out where they say very clearly that this was a practice that was current during the days of the Prophet Muhammad. That much is true.

And then they go a step further and make the conclusion that because it was practiced in the time of the Prophet Mohammed by the prophet and also by his companions, that therefore, it is something virtuous, and the partaking in it is spiritually beneficial to their Islamic project.



https://www.npr.org/2015/08/13/432122595/new-york-times-islamic-state-uses-quran-to-justify-rape-of-yazidi-women

Is the large font really needed?

It's hurting my eyes.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 2:31pm:

Is the large font really needed? It's hurting my eyes.

I’m on a minuscule IPhone AND I’m also very angry with what articles are coming through to me by women I know in certain circles.

There’s more unfortunately 😩😔🥺

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/17/world/israel-investigates-sexual-violence-hamas/index.html

Israeli police are using forensic evidence, video and witness testimony and interrogations of suspects to document cases of rape amid the October 7 Hamas attacks on Israel.

Women and girls caught in the rampage were brutalized sexually, as well as physically tortured and killed, witnesses to the aftermath say.

Police Superintendent Dudi Katz said officers have collected more than 1,000 statements and more than 60,000 video clips related to the attacks that include accounts from people who reported seeing women raped. He added that investigators do not have firsthand testimony, and it is not clear whether any rape victims survived.

Cochav Elkayam-Levy, a human rights law expert at Hebrew University, has formed a civil commission with colleagues to document evidence of the atrocities, fearing that as the war devastates Gaza and the lives of thousands of Palestinians, the world seems willing to look over the violence against Israeli women and girls. “We’ll never know everything that has happened to them,” Elkayam-Levy told CNN. “We know that most women who were raped and who were sexually assaulted were also murdered.”

She pointed to a United Nations statement just a week after the terror attacks that did not mention sexual violence.

“It’s much worse than just silence or an insult to us as Israeli women and to our children and to our people,” she said of the UN. “When they are failing to acknowledge us, to acknowledge what happened here, they are failing humanity.”

A paramedic from the elite 669 Special Tactics Rescue Unit said he had encountered all kinds of casualties before, but the violence from October 7 was unimaginable.

In Kibbutz Be’eri, he went house to house looking for anyone still alive after the carnage and found the bodies of two young teenage girls in a bedroom.

“One is lying on the bed. One on the floor,” he told CNN.

The combat paramedic, who did not want his name published, said the girl on the floor was on her stomach. He had no doubt the teenager was raped, but he did not know if she died first.

Her pants are pulled down toward her knees and there’s a bullet wound on the back side of her neck near her head,” he recounted.“There’s a puddle of blood around her head and there’s remains of semen on the lower part of her back.”

The girl on the bed had bruises all over her body and a bullet wound to the chest, he said.

“These are two girls that were just killed, executed, perhaps raped in their own bedroom,” he told CNN.

Others reported similar horrors at the Nova music festival where hundreds of young people were killed by terrorists.

Rami Shmuel, an organizer of the festival, said he saw female victims with no clothes as he made his escape, and has no doubts about what happened.

“Their legs were spread out and some of them were butchered,” he told CNN.

He added that it appeared women were specifically targeted for sexual violence.

“Why didn’t they [take] clothes off men?” he asked. “Only women, only young girls, beautiful girls, why?”

A long investigation ahead
Israel’s police acknowledge their investigation may take months, and Elkayam-Levy said it remains unclear how or where any prosecutions would be handled, though she noted that some families of dual nationals could seek justice in countries other than Israel as well as pursue cases in international courts.

But officials provided a stark window into the evidence they have been gathering at a press briefing, which included a statement from a woman who witnessed the Nova festival attack from her hiding place on October 7.

They bent someone over and I understood he was raping her, and then he was passing her on to someone else,” the woman, who was not identified, said of what she saw.

“She was alive, she stood on her feet and she was bleeding from her back. I saw that he was pulling her hair. She had long brown hair. I saw him chop off her breast and then he was throwing it toward the road, tossed it to someone else and they started playing with it.”

The witness added: “I remember seeing another person raping her, and while he was still inside her he shot her in the head.”

And some of the barbarian perpetrators will soon be living in Europe, North America, Australia as 'refugees".

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 2:43pm:

And some of the barbarian perpetrators will soon be living in Europe, North America, Australia as 'refugees".

They can stay at Peccary's place then.

Ok so now that we know a little bit about Hamas the political party governing Palestine...let’s move on to the UN. We’ve all heard of that organisation... yeah?

https://www.foxnews.com/world/united-nations-slammed-silence-hamas-rapes-mutilation-murder-israeli-women-critics-say.amp



United Nations slammed for silence over Hamas rapes, mutilation and murder of Israeli women, critics say.

Israeli official says she shared documentation with UN groups: 'Silence is so deafening that it's sickening'

JERUSALEM –  Women’s rights groups and officials in Israel who have been working tirelessly for the past six weeks to document cases of rape and gender-based atrocities carried out by Hamas terrorists during their mass, brutal terror attack in Israel on Oct. 7., say the United Nations is ignoring them.

They say they have also shared much of this evidence, some of it horrifyingly graphic and all of it extremely intimate, with the United Nations and groups that protect and empower women.

The response: Silence.

Weiss Maudi, who last year became the first Israeli representative to serve as a senior adviser to the president of the 77th Session of the U.N. General Assembly in New York, said that U.N. bodies, particularly U.N. Women, whose specific mandate is to champion the rights of women regardless of race or ethnicity, have simply refused to acknowledge that atrocities were committed against Israeli women – and young girls – despite much of it filmed by Hamas, and other Palestinian terrorists from Gaza, themselves.


So what’s going on with the UN? Who’s there? Who’s behind all this BS of silence?

Oh look everyone! This is who’s behind the revolting silence in the UN (UN Women).

It’s none other than this Jordanian Muslim woman! She is their freaking Executive Director ffs!

https://www.unwomen.org/en/about-us/directorate/executive-director

And this is why I am not a feminist and I am disgusted by feminism. They are useless and hopeless and exist to service and promote their own personal agendas.

More ...this time by The Guardian

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-womens-groups-warn-of-failure-to-keep-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks

Women’s rights groups in Israel have warned of significant failings in preserving forensic evidence that could have shone a light on the scale of sexual violence committed against women and girls in last month’s Hamas attacks.

Several incidents of sexual assault and rape from 7 October have been documented by Hamas body camera footage, CCTV, material uploaded to social media, and photographs and videos taken by civilians and first responders, according to several people involved in analysing the footage. Survivor and witness testimonies, many from the Supernova rave, describe seeing women being raped before they were shot.

Many of the atrocities committed by Hamas, as well as what are believed to be civilians or criminal gangs from Gaza who also took advantage of the chaos, have been included by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) in a 40-minute reel of war crimes, screened to journalists and politicians.

However, the most distressing material has not been released, on the grounds that it is too difficult to watch, and to preserve the victims’ dignity.

A major worry for Israeli women’s rights groups is that it also appears that very little, if any, investigative work was done to document sexual violence before bodies were returned to their families for funerals, meaning that the gender-based nature of some of the violence has largely gone under the radar in Israeli and international media.

Tal Hochman, a government relations officer at the Israel Women’s Network, said: “Most of the women who were raped were then killed, and we will never understand the full picture, because either bodies were burned too badly or the victims were buried and the forensic evidence buried too. No samples were taken.

Continued

There are some survivors we are working with or are being treated privately. We also have no idea about what is happening to women currently being held by Hamas in Gaza.”

A volunteer who gave her name as Sherry, speaking to journalists at the Shura base, where Israel has been identifying bodies, said:“We have seen women who have been raped, from the age of children through to the elderly.”

A first responder, Simcha Dizengoff, said that in Kfar Aza, a kibbutz, his team found a woman who was naked from the waist down who had been bent over a bed and then shot in the back of the head, with a live grenade put in her hand.

In Be’eri, a kibbutz where about 100 people were killed, an Israeli special forces sergeant described finding the body of a teenage girl lying naked and face down on her bed with evidence of sexual violence, who had also been shot in the head.

In leaked details from interrogation reports of captured Hamas personnel, at least one man appears to have said his commander told the men that when it came to women and children, “do whatever you want”.

Israel is collecting visual, digital and forensic evidence from 7 October for a war crimes and a crimes against humanity investigation. The international criminal court (ICC) in The Hague will be supplied with the testimony for its continuing investigation into allegations of war crimes in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, as will courts in other countries whose citizens were victims of the massacres, where perpetrators could be tried under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids?

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:35pm:

Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids?

He's busy self-fellating, I gather.  It's his hobby, I heard.
Trump is his first preference, very keen on old blonds, he does that a lot, and then karnal, the more swarthy demographic. His Slavic self, as a last resort.  Allegedly.  The  suction must go on. Could be just a rumour. Is it?

I know nothing about it, I am just saying what I've heard. Could be totally made up but unlikely. Sounds credible to me.  Anyone else heard anything??  ::)

These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused....Israel cannot negotiate with these terrorists and must ensure every one of them is eliminated from the face of the earth....How can Palastinians support these inhuman scum....Even the innocent Palastinians who have done nothing wrong are suffering from HAMAS's reign of terror???

:-? :-? :-?

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:43pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:35pm: Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids? He's busy self-fellating, I gather.  It's his hobby, I heard. Trump is his first preference, very keen on old blonds, he does that a lot, and then karnal, the more swarthy demographic. His Slavic self, as a last resort.  Allegedly.  The  suction must go on. Could be just a rumour. Is it? I know nothing about it, I am just saying what I've heard. Could be totally made up but unlikely. Sounds credible to me.  Anyone else heard anything??  ::)

I think Groggy and his army of ids are frightened to death of the brutal truth esp when said brutal truth is extremely confronting.

Children being brutally raped in their own homes  then murdered. Not just by Hamas...but also by pro Hamas supporters who were civilians. That’s a bitter pill for Groggy to swallow.

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:46pm:

These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused....Israel cannot negotiate with these terrorists and must ensure every one of them is eliminated from the face of the earth....How can Palastinians support these inhuman scum....Even theinnocent Palastinians who have done nothing wrong are suffering from their reign of terror??? :-? :-? :-?

I am heartily glad to say I agree with you.

There is a depth at which the ephemeral differences of our daily politics become irrelevant and moral clarity becomes essential. So I join you at that depth.

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:46pm:

These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused....Israel cannot negotiate with these terrorists and must ensure every one of them is eliminated from the face of the earth....How can Palastinians support these inhuman scum....Even the innocent Palastinians who have done nothing wrong are suffering from HAMAS's reign of terror??? :-? :-? :-?

Agreed!!!

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:49pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:43pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:35pm: Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids? He's busy self-fellating, I gather.  It's his hobby, I heard. Trump is his first preference, very keen on old blonds, he does that a lot, and then karnal, the more swarthy demographic. His Slavic self, as a last resort.  Allegedly.  The  suction must go on. Could be just a rumour. Is it? I know nothing about it, I am just saying what I've heard. Could be totally made up but unlikely. Sounds credible to me.  Anyone else heard anything??  ::) I think Groggy and his army of ids are frightened to death ... of the brutal truth esp when the brutal truth is extremely confronting. Children being brutally raped in their own homes  then murdered. Not just by Hamas...but also by pro Hamas supporters who were civilians. That’s a bitter pill for Groggy to swallow.

Indeed.

You need to shed the sock obsession, though. Adds nothing, distracts hugely.  Ditch it.

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:55pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:49pm: Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:43pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:35pm: Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids? He's busy self-fellating, I gather.  It's his hobby, I heard. Trump is his first preference, very keen on old blonds, he does that a lot, and then karnal, the more swarthy demographic. His Slavic self, as a last resort.  Allegedly.  The  suction must go on. Could be just a rumour. Is it? I know nothing about it, I am just saying what I've heard. Could be totally made up but unlikely. Sounds credible to me.  Anyone else heard anything??  ::) I think Groggy and his army of ids are frightened to death ... of the brutal truth esp when the brutal truth is extremely confronting. Children being brutally raped in their own homes  then murdered. Not just by Hamas...but also by pro Hamas supporters who were civilians. That’s a bitter pill for Groggy to swallow. Indeed. You need to shed the sock obsession, though. Adds nothing, distracts hugely.  Ditch it.

It’s ok....Aussie has been at me over that all bloody day!

For the record - I’m trying very hard to accept the awful reality that I may well be one of the very few people on OzPol who logs online with 1 ID and 1 ID only. I’m finding that difficult to take because for some time I seriously believed I was posting alongside decent people. I now realise my mistake ... I’ve been posting amongst disturbed and dishonest vipers.

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 9:01pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:55pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:49pm: Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:43pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:35pm: Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids? He's busy self-fellating, I gather.  It's his hobby, I heard. Trump is his first preference, very keen on old blonds, he does that a lot, and then karnal, the more swarthy demographic. His Slavic self, as a last resort.  Allegedly.  The  suction must go on. Could be just a rumour. Is it? I know nothing about it, I am just saying what I've heard. Could be totally made up but unlikely. Sounds credible to me.  Anyone else heard anything??  ::) I think Groggy and his army of ids are frightened to death ... of the brutal truth esp when the brutal truth is extremely confronting. Children being brutally raped in their own homes  then murdered. Not just by Hamas...but also by pro Hamas supporters who were civilians. That’s a bitter pill for Groggy to swallow. Indeed. You need to shed the sock obsession, though. Adds nothing, distracts hugely.  Ditch it. It’s ok....Aussie has been at me over that all bloody day! For the record - I’m trying very hard to accept the awful reality that I may well be one of the very few people on OzPol who logs online with 1 ID and 1 ID only. I’m finding that difficult to take because for some time I seriously believed I was posting alongside decent people. I now realise my mistake ... I’ve been posting amongst disturbed and dishonest vipers.

Soooooo... They are vipers under one id or five. What exactly are you achieving by banging on about it? A viper is a viper is a viper.

EVERYBODY is a pseudonym here, you included. Some have multiple ids. So? It not like one is really sensible and another is a tosser. All socks smell the same. So move on. It isn't a great discovery that losts of people disagree with you and some of them are total mongs.

There is something of the frumpy, compulsive housewife about forever chasing after odd socks.
Odd sock? Bin it.

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 9:44pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 9:01pm: Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:55pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:49pm: Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:43pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:35pm: Does anyone know why Greggary is too frightened to face this topic under any of his ids? He's busy self-fellating, I gather.  It's his hobby, I heard. Trump is his first preference, very keen on old blonds, he does that a lot, and then karnal, the more swarthy demographic. His Slavic self, as a last resort.  Allegedly.  The  suction must go on. Could be just a rumour. Is it? I know nothing about it, I am just saying what I've heard. Could be totally made up but unlikely. Sounds credible to me.  Anyone else heard anything??  ::) I think Groggy and his army of ids are frightened to death ... of the brutal truth esp when the brutal truth is extremely confronting. Children being brutally raped in their own homes  then murdered. Not just by Hamas...but also by pro Hamas supporters who were civilians. That’s a bitter pill for Groggy to swallow. Indeed. You need to shed the sock obsession, though. Adds nothing, distracts hugely.  Ditch it. It’s ok....Aussie has been at me over that all bloody day! For the record - I’m trying very hard to accept the awful reality that I may well be one of the very few people on OzPol who logs online with 1 ID and 1 ID only. I’m finding that difficult to take because for some time I seriously believed I was posting alongside decent people. I now realise my mistake ... I’ve been posting amongst disturbed and dishonest vipers. Soooooo... They are vipers under one id or five. What exactly are you achieving by banging on about it? A viper is a viper is a viper. EVERYBODY is a pseudonym here, you included. Some have multiple ids. So? It not like one is really sensible and another is a tosser. All socks smell the same. So move on. It isn't a great discovery that losts of people disagree with you and some of them are total mongs. There is something of the frumpy, compulsive housewife about forever chasing after odd socks. Odd sock? Bin it.

A couple of things :

1. I don’t bin odd socks 🧦 I recycle them. In fact they come in quite handy for holding up plants (especially my current metre tall organic tomato plants).

2. I’m not a frumpy housewife. I’m a grumpy housewife. Why? I think it’s mainly because I have and expect very high standards about everything/of everyone. I’m also a perfectionist. It’s tiring work.

Quote:

1. I don’t bin odd socks 🧦 I recycle them. In fact they come in quite handy for holding up plants (especially my current metre tall organic tomato plants).

Good idea. Ta.

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 8:46pm:

These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused..

I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up?

Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad.

John Smith wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2023 at 9:11am:

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:46pm: These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused.. I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up? Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad.

Exactly!

Almost 900 Palestinians granted temporary visas to Australia since Hamas’s October 7 attacks on Israel.

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2023 at 9:19am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 22nd, 2023 at 9:11am: philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:46pm: These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused.. I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up? Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad. Exactly!

So?

Israel is defending itself. HAMAS didn't do the Palestinians any favors by starting a war with Israel. They should have thought about the consequences first, including the fact that children would be in grave danger. So all the children should have been moved to safe places prior to the beginning of hostilities. HAMAS is solely to blame for all the deaths. They simply should have stayed on their side of the border

As for Israel, they made it too easy for HAMAS to take hostages, now they're paying for that shortcoming

Frank wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 9:53am:

Almost 900 Palestinians granted temporary visas to Australia since Hamas’s October 7 attacks on Israel.

Nice political stunt to appease Palestinians in OZ Frank ... but I haven't seen anywhere that the visas are "temporary" ... we all know what will happen

At the same time, visas have been granted to a whole bunch of Israelis, Penny Wrong said

So what we are getting is more Palestinians and Israelis to boost the numbers of protestors in the streets, having a go at each other, flying their foreign flags, and wrestling with police, getting theirs points across that no one is really interested in

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 12:41pm:

Israel is defending itself.

but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did.

John Smith wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2023 at 9:11am:

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:46pm: These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused.. I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up? Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad.

Palestine is divided into Hamas from Gaza and PA from west bank.Palestine has 2 different governments Israel is not at war with PA.

These street protests are supporting Hamas.

Israel is at war with Hamas who broke the ceasefire and started this.

Australia list Hamas as a terrorist group these protestors are supporting terrorists.

John Smith wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did.

You are confused John.

How would John think Israel should defend itself?
Go in with Cricket Bats? ::)

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 6:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. You are confused John.

But John has a point.
In more detail:

Gaza has been turned into a place that looks like Hiroshima after it was bombed and
in fact the tonnage of bombs exceeds the 12 kiloton blast at Hiroshima.

Over 14,000 people have been killed and most of them are women, children and babies
crushed to death as whole buildings collapsed on top of them from 500 pound laser guided bombs.

It seems to be totally out of proportion to what happened on Oct. 7th
and it's not over.
Will there be any of Gaza left when Israel has finished their divine justice?
How many more people will be killed?
Who will pay for and re-build Gaza?

Well they were all in it 'together' - that makes the Women & Children Terrorists as well. It's in the 'blood', just like it is with Royalty's justification.

Too bad, so sad.

Jasin wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 6:54pm:

Well they were all in it 'together' - that makes the Women & Children Terrorists as well. It's in the 'blood', just like it is with Royalty's justification. Too bad, so sad.

It's in the 'blood' -  isn't that what Hitler thought about the Jews?

and thus those little Terrorist children will grow up to seek revenge on Jews for killing their daddy and mummy for 'murdering' innocent unarmed Jewish civilians in a massacre.

Every Palestinian is a Terrorist. It's a 'Group Mentality' called Palestine.

John Smith wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did.

Either way, HAMAS should have sent all the women and children to the Egyptian border before they decided to fire rockets and paraglide into Israel. That would have been the decent human thing to do, get them out of harms way ... So why didn't HAMAS do that? Don't they respect their own women and children?

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 6:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. You are confused John.

I'm not the one pretending that the over 5500 Palestinian children killed by Israel,  were attacking Israel

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 7:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. Either way, HAMAS should have sent all the women and children to the Egyptian border before they decided to fire rockets and paraglide into Israel. That would have been the decent human thing to do, get them out of harms way ... So why didn't HAMAS do that? Don't they respect their own women and children?

Hamas are terrorists,  they don't give a shit.  Just like Israel 🇮🇱

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 7:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. Either way, HAMAS should have sent all the women and children to the Egyptian border before they decided to fire rockets and paraglide into Israel. That would have been the decent human thing to do, get them out of harms way ... So why didn't HAMAS do that? Don't they respect their own women and children?

Those so-called 'innocent' women and children should have sought protection from Hamas, dobbed them in and all the rest to prove they stand apart and condemn Terrorism.
Instead, they whole-heartedly supported/support still - Hamas.

They are all Terrorists!

How many Jewish kids are being bullied and bashed by Moslem kids in Australian Primary Schools?
The Media dare not look into it.
The Moslem kids feeling blessed that the Media and the ALP are on their side - they'll do what they want and what their parents tell them to do. "Go bash a Jew kid."

John Smith wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 7:22pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 6:22pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. You are confused John. I'm not the one pretending that the over 5500 Palestinian children killed by Israel,  were attacking Israel

No one else is either John. You are very confused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NTo5NG6C8M

John Smith wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did.

Not sure there is any point in telling them the truth. They just don't like that.

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 8:26pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 7:22pm: freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 6:22pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. You are confused John. I'm not the one pretending that the over 5500 Palestinian children killed by Israel,  were attacking Israel No one else is either John. You are very confused.

Sure they are.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 8:52pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. Not sure there is any point in telling them the truth. They just don't like that.

The truth is that the Israelis targeted specific HAMAS command posts and leaders. They also gave residents a chance to head south and get away from HAMAS fighters

HAMAS themselves should have evacuated women and children out of harms way before they fired rockets into Israel. Israel was always going to retaliate, that was a given ... and they weren't going to swarm Gaza firing with just Colt 45s so as avoid hitting civilians

HAMAS brought this on themselves, and they failed to protect Palestinian women and children ... that's the first thing they should have done

John Smith wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 8:54pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 8:26pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 7:22pm: freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 6:22pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. You are confused John. I'm not the one pretending that the over 5500 Palestinian children killed by Israel,  were attacking Israel No one else is either John. You are very confused. Sure they are.

They are saying that you are confused John. Unable to comprehend.

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 10:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 8:52pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. Not sure there is any point in telling them the truth. They just don't like that. The truth is that the Israelis targeted specific HAMAS command posts and leaders. They also gave residents a chance to head south and get away from HAMAS fighters HAMAS themselves should have evacuated women and children out of harms way before they fired rockets into Israel. Israel was always going to retaliate, that was a given ... and they weren't going to swarm Gaza firing with just Colt 45s so as avoid hitting civilians HAMAS brought this on themselves, and they failed to protect Palestinian women and children ... that's the first thing they should have done

And thereby give away that they are going to launch an attack? An attack they somehow managed to plan, stage and carry out? An attack on the illegal occupiers of Palestinians’ land?

freediver wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 4:19am:

They are saying that you are confused John. Unable to comprehend.

The voices in your head are irrelevant to this thread, you should seek medical help for those. I'm talking about what people on your forum are saying

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2023 at 10:03pm:

The truth is that the Israelis targeted specific HAMAS command posts and leaders. They also gave residents a chance to head south and get away from HAMAS fighters

and then bombed those 'safe' areas

It's difficult to read these reports without feeling sick to the stomach. They are not dissimilar to accounts of Russian soldiers in just about every part of Ukraine they have occupied so far. What drives people to do that sort of thing? We saw the same, and worse in the Japanese sack of Nanjing, but that doesn't excuse anything.

Is the rape of innocent women and girls worse than murder though?  I'd say that it's a form of torture which makes it worse.

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 5:56am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 10:03pm: The truth is that the Israelis targeted specific HAMAS command posts and leaders. They also gave residents a chance to head south and get away from HAMAS fighters and then bombed those 'safe' areas

Yeah sure .... you're making things up as you go along

There was no reports of civilians being bombed as they moved south. They were doing the right thing, what the Israelis told them to do

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 5:37am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 10:03pm: Dnarever wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 8:52pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. Not sure there is any point in telling them the truth. They just don't like that. The truth is that the Israelis targeted specific HAMAS command posts and leaders. They also gave residents a chance to head south and get away from HAMAS fighters HAMAS themselves should have evacuated women and children out of harms way before they fired rockets into Israel. Israel was always going to retaliate, that was a given ... and they weren't going to swarm Gaza firing with just Colt 45s so as avoid hitting civilians HAMAS brought this on themselves, and they failed to protect Palestinian women and children ... that's the first thing they should have done And thereby give away that they are going to launch an attack? An attack they somehow managed to plan, stage and carry out? An attack on the illegal occupiers of Palestinians’ land?

Bit silly wasn't it? ....  plan and carry out an attack without warning their own population about it first

The land always belonged to the Israelis. The Palestinians should have settled it when they had a chance while the Israelis were still in forced exile. All the Israelis did was reoccupy their own land, and there was hardly a soul on it when they did

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 9:55am:

The land always belonged to the Israelis. The Palestinians should have settled it when they had a chance while the Israelis were still in forced exile. All the Israelis did was reoccupy their own land, and there was hardly a soul on it when they did

Modern Jews did not return to their homeland. They claimed a land to which they have a religious association.

That is no different to Christian Europe claiming the land as belonging to Christian Europe by right of religious association.

And little different to Muslims arguing the same.

The myth of European Jews being Semitic was entrenched in the Eurocentric mindset as the term had been used to define Jews for 2000 years, despite its ethnic inaccuracy, as it turns out.

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 9:55am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 5:37am: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 10:03pm: Dnarever wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 8:52pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 4:41pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2023 at 12:41pm: Israel is defending itself. but they're not defending themselves, they're punishing a whole innocent men women and children as punishment for what hamas did. Not sure there is any point in telling them the truth. They just don't like that. The truth is that the Israelis targeted specific HAMAS command posts and leaders. They also gave residents a chance to head south and get away from HAMAS fighters HAMAS themselves should have evacuated women and children out of harms way before they fired rockets into Israel. Israel was always going to retaliate, that was a given ... and they weren't going to swarm Gaza firing with just Colt 45s so as avoid hitting civilians HAMAS brought this on themselves, and they failed to protect Palestinian women and children ... that's the first thing they should have done And thereby give away that they are going to launch an attack? An attack they somehow managed to plan, stage and carry out? An attack on the illegal occupiers of Palestinians’ land? Bit silly wasn't it? ....  plan and carry out an attack without warning their own population about it first The land always belonged to the Israelis. The Palestinians should have settled it when they had a chance while the Israelis were still in forced exile. All the Israelis did was reoccupy their own land, and there was hardly a soul on it when they did

What the hell are you talking about? “Hardly a soul” in Palestine?

Plenty of Palestinians were there, like in West Jerusalem now. Where the hell do you think the Palestinians now in Gaza came from?

Just to put it into perspective, European Jews migrating into Palestine from the late 19th century until 1948, mostly settled the land in the west of Palestine by the sea and paid Arabs for it.

The land was the poorest quality marshlands, and had for centuries been not ideal for settling given that; and the fact that Palestine had always been most vulnerable to invasion by would-be European conquerors from the west, made living there not a good idea.

They could afford that land because it was poor quality. This was pre WWII.

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 21^st, 2023 at 2:00pm:

[size=14]As a woman and as a mum to 2 young girls I’m absolutely disgusted that the extreme abhorrent sexual abuse and violence which has occurred has also been downplayed by the UN.

The UN majority vote - again and again - is for UN res 242 ie two states living side by side in security; but the UN is crippled by the UNSC veto.

And this is because your mind is crippled by  the 'individual rights' delusion, leading directly to your "freedom or death (in war)" ideology.

Once the "legal" killing starts, there is no bottom to the the resulting barbarity -- proving that 'rules of war' are thenmselves insane, you can't kill people nicely, you have to do with self-righteous passion and insanity, when they are firing back... 

And the fact is Israel was created in other peoples' land.

...leading to war, of course.

You might be a mother with 2 daugters, but  your crippled brain makes you complict in the ruination of our beautiful world, in war.



Quote:

Warning : this is not an easy article to view/read.

No, and your lack of insight into the human condition is also egregious.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 10:03am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 9:55am: The land always belonged to the Israelis. The Palestinians should have settled it when they had a chance while the Israelis were still in forced exile. All the Israelis did was reoccupy their own land, and there was hardly a soul on it when they did Modern Jews did not return to their homeland. They claimed a land to which they have a religious association. That is no different to Christian Europe claiming the land as belonging to Christian Europe by right of religious association. And little different to Muslims arguing the same. The myth of European Jews being Semitic was entrenched in the Eurocentric mindset as the term had been used to define Jews for 2000 years, despite its ethnic inaccuracy, as it turns out.

Interesting to read some truth from you, occasionally you get it right.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 12:37pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 10:03am: Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 9:55am: The land always belonged to the Israelis. The Palestinians should have settled it when they had a chance while the Israelis were still in forced exile. All the Israelis did was reoccupy their own land, and there was hardly a soul on it when they did Modern Jews did not return to their homeland. They claimed a land to which they have a religious association. That is no different to Christian Europe claiming the land as belonging to Christian Europe by right of religious association. And little different to Muslims arguing the same. The myth of European Jews being Semitic was entrenched in the Eurocentric mindset as the term had been used to define Jews for 2000 years, despite its ethnic inaccuracy, as it turns out. Interesting to read some truth from you

You should try it sometime.

John Smith wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2023 at 9:11am:

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:46pm: These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused.. I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up? Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad.

I don't believe you or anyone else supporting Palastinian's support HAMAS John....I condemn the deaths of every innocent person on both sides of the conflict....Israel should be held to account for civilian deaths and a humain ceasfire is coming....HAMAS cannot be trusted and will not keep to the terms of any agreement....If Israel keeps killing civilians the Arab world will not stay silent???

:-? :-? :-?

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 7:25pm:

If Israel keeps killing civilians the Arab world will not stay silent???

Yes, they will. The Sunni Arab states want detente with Israel to deal to their greater enemies: Shia states.

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 7:25pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 22nd, 2023 at 9:11am: philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:46pm: These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused.. I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up? Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad. I don't believe you or anyone else supporting Palastinian's support HAMAS John....I condemn the deaths of every innocent person on both sides of the conflict....Israel should be held to account for civilian deaths and a humain ceasfire is coming....HAMAS cannot be trusted and will not keep to the terms of any agreement....If Israel keeps killing civilians the Arab world will not stay silent??? :-? :-? :-?

The Arab world doesn't care about Palestinians.  For them Palestinians are merely an excuse .

As for help from the West, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out what ultra-conservative Arab leaders and Arabs thought of 'Queers for Palestine'.

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 7:44pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 7:25pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 22nd, 2023 at 9:11am: philperth2010 wrote on Nov 21st, 2023 at 8:46pm: These stories are very disturbing and should unite everyone against HAMAS and it's supporters....Even if someone has sympathy for Palastinians there can be no denying the conduct of these terrorists is disgusting and cannot be excused.. I haven't seen anyone that supports Hamas. Try asking the women if they would prefer to be raped or if they prefer to have their kids blown up? Highlighting one sides atrocities and using it for justification of the other sides atrocities is dishonest in the extreme. Hamas are terrorists, everyone knows that, but what Israel is doing is just as bad. I don't believe you or anyone else supporting Palastinian's support HAMAS John....I condemn the deaths of every innocent person on both sides of the conflict....Israel should be held to account for civilian deaths and a humain ceasfire is coming....HAMAS cannot be trusted and will not keep to the terms of any agreement....If Israel keeps killing civilians the Arab world will not stay silent??? :-? :-? :-? The Arab world doesn't care about Palestinians.  For them Palestinians are merely an excuse .

If the Palestinians cared more about Palestinians than about killing Jews, this would all be over.

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2023 at 5:55am:

freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 4:19am: They are saying that you are confused John. Unable to comprehend. The voices in your head are irrelevant to this thread, you should seek medical help for those. I'm talking about what people on your forum are saying

Is there anyone here who doesn't think John is confused? Greg maybe?

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:18am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 5:55am: freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 4:19am: They are saying that you are confused John. Unable to comprehend. The voices in your head are irrelevant to this thread, you should seek medical help for those. I'm talking about what people on your forum are saying Is there anyone here who doesn't think John is confused? Greg maybe?

when were john or gweg ever capable of critical thinking ?

at least john isnt up to 110.105 posts of the words rape, child rape, masturbation, vagina .

claerly gweg has no excess brain capacity left over  to analyse any issue

the noble conservative is like an israeli tank....strong powerful and well put together

john is like an   angry child throwing rocks at the tank

the tank is unaffected and john gets to release a bit of pent up rage at being a loser

in the scheme of things, he is pretty harmless and irrelevant

the banging on the tanks mighty armor is a little annoying

noise cancelling headphones will help

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:18am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 5:55am: freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2023 at 4:19am: They are saying that you are confused John. Unable to comprehend. The voices in your head are irrelevant to this thread, you should seek medical help for those. I'm talking about what people on your forum are saying Is there anyone here who doesn't think John is confused? Greg maybe?

There is one advantage to being confused all the time. You never get bored.  (What has this got to do with Gaza though?)

If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent',
you're a dead set Fool.

indeed jasin

did you watch barons excellent clip of the naked jew in the back of the ute being driven thru gaza?

and the 1000's of palestinians who were lined up to beat a dead body

it was a feeding frenzy of monsters

possibly the most disgusting clip i have seen

good motivation for the idf to exterminate the vermin who would behave in such a fashion

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool.

We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine.

After Israel was created out of other peoples' land..... 

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....

How many states can you name that have been created or exist, whose territorial boundaries are not challenged by peoples who claim the land as theirs?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR

NO country should have a 'veto' power

John Smith wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:50am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR NO country should have a 'veto' power

:D

Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....

Wake up GD.
Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created.
It's a justified reclaimation.

Frank wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:29pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:50am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR NO country should have a 'veto' power :D Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc.

The veto power is merely a way to allow a SC nation to ignore rule of international law. 

All nations need to abide by international law maintained by the UNSC, impossible with the veto power claimed by those responsible for maintaining the peace.   ie the UN Security (sic) Council.

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation.

Justified by whom?

Not by the people from whom the land was taken.

And ancient Israel of course came into being via conquest of territory by force .... "inadmissible" since 1946 (see the UN Charter).

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation. Justified by whom? Not by the people from whom the land was taken.

Yes. Tibet comes to mind.

But then, all states' territorial borders are challenged by other peoples.

Frank wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:29pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:50am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR NO country should have a 'veto' power :D Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc.

You're equal to a roach? Does that count?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation. Justified by whom? Not by the people from whom the land was taken. And ancient Israel of course came into being via conquest of territory by force .... "inadmissible" since 1946 (see the UN Charter).

Go back to the BC era dude.  ;D

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:49pm: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation. Justified by whom? Not by the people from whom the land was taken. Yes. Tibet comes to mind. But then, all states' territorial borders are challenged by other peoples.

That's exactly right ME.
And the Palestinians are 'imploding' and causing their own failure. They will 'lose' their own country, rather than Israel having to conquer it by unprovoked invasion.

No nation-state is guaranteed to exist in perpetuity - they exist by the will of the regional/world order of the day.

What does exist in perpetuity are multiple claims to the same territory, so long as there are peoples whose collective memory asserts those claims.

John Smith wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:22pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:29pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:50am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR NO country should have a 'veto' power :D Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc. You're equal to a roach? Does that count?

Well, you are a thick moron which definitely counts.

Go and sweep or do some concreting, thicko.   

Frank wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 3:22pm: Frank wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:29pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:50am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR NO country should have a 'veto' power :D Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc. You're equal to a roach? Does that count? Well, you are a thick moron which definitely counts. Go and sweep or do some concreting, thicko.

Well that was a wasted effort. 
You were bullshitting when you said you worked at a uni, weren't you?

Reckon John Smith is a 4ft midget with little man's syndrome.  ;D ;D

John Smith wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:38pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 5:14pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 3:22pm: Frank wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:29pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:50am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR NO country should have a 'veto' power :D Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc. You're equal to a roach? Does that count? Well, you are a thick moron which definitely counts. Go and sweep or do some concreting, thicko.    Well that was a wasted effort.  You were bullshitting when you said you worked at a uni, weren't you?

I told you to sweep or do some concreting.


We are not here to discuss or accommodate your inferiority complex.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:49pm: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation. Justified by whom? Not by the people from whom the land was taken. Yes. Tibet comes to mind. But then, all states' territorial borders are challenged by other peoples.

Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations.

(I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC).

Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations  gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946.  etc etc. 

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:24pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 3:19pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:49pm: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation. Justified by whom? Not by the people from whom the land was taken. Yes. Tibet comes to mind. But then, all states' territorial borders are challenged by other peoples. That's exactly right ME.

ME  is ignoring the "new world order" established in 1946 to "save Mankind from the scourge of war", which all nations signed up to.  The failure of UN machinery to achieve it doesn't alter the fact: "the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible" under international law, since 1946.



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And the Palestinians are 'imploding' and causing their own failure.

The Palestinians are entitled to their own state as stated in UN res 242.


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They will 'lose' their own country, rather than Israel having to conquer it by unprovoked invasion.

The US-promoted Oslo Accords never granted Palestinians their sovereignty. Hence the failure of the Accords.

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:49pm: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 2:39pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 10:45am: Jasin wrote on Nov 25th, 2023 at 6:58am: If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent', you're a dead set Fool. We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine. After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....  Wake up GD. Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created. It's a justified reclaimation. Justified by whom? Not by the people from whom the land was taken. And ancient Israel of course came into being via conquest of territory by force .... "inadmissible" since 1946 (see the UN Charter). Go back to the BC era dude.  ;D

I did .....have you forgotten David took Jerusalem by force, c.1100BC?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations. (I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC). Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations  gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946.  etc tec.

Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history and are fundamental features of our nature.

Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory.

However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection, then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:07pm:

No nation-state is guaranteed to exist in perpetuity - they exist by the will of the regional/world order of the day.

Yes , and in 1946, a new world order came into being, signed by all nations.....see my previous post.


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What does exist in perpetuity are multiple claims to the same territory, so long as there are peoples whose collective memory asserts those claims.

See above.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:30am: Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations. (I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC). Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations  gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946.  etc, etc.  Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history

True; it's 'natural law' in the animal kingdom.


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and are fundamental features of our nature.

A dismal conservative ideation; "nature" is subject to reason, among homo sapiens.


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Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory.

Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus.

But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.   


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However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection......

All 'inadmissible' under internatinal law, since 1946. 


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.....then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors.

See above; but in any case a majority of UN members, ie all nations of the world,  are in favour of UN res 242.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:46am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:30am: Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations. (I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC). Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations  gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946.  etc, etc.  Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history Quote: True; it's 'natural law' in the animal kingdom. and are fundamental features of our nature.[quote] A dismal conservative ideation; "nature" is subject to reason, among homosapiens. [quote]Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory. Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.    [quote]However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection...... All 'inadmissible' under internatinal law, since 1946.  [quote] then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors.

See above; but in any case a majority of UN members, ie all nations of the world,  are in favour of UN res 242.
[/quote]
Human nature pre-dates 1946.

What world orders do is accommodate and manage human nature - they cannot create desirable, and cannot expunge undesirable components.

And world orders come and go.

People who have not spent most of their life isolated understand this relatively early in life.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:06am:

Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.

Jewish claims to Palestine is based on territorial right by religious affiliation - not a bogus claim.

With Taiwan and Tibet, when the modern Chinese state collapses, it's almost certain that the world order of the day will quickly recognise Taiwan and Tibet as independent sovereign states.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:12am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:46am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:30am: Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations. (I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC). Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations  gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946.  etc, etc.  Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history Quote: True; it's 'natural law' in the animal kingdom. and are fundamental features of our nature.[quote] A dismal conservative ideation; "nature" is subject to reason, among homosapiens. [quote]Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory. Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.    [quote]However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection...... All 'inadmissible' under internatinal law, since 1946.  [quote] then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors. See above; but in any case a majority of UN members, ie all nations of the world,  are in favour of UN res 242.

Human nature pre-dates 1946.[/quote]

Your dismal conservative ideation; the human cortex (thinking brain) also predates 1946, but only in 1946 was international  law signed up to by all nations...beginning a 'new world order', for the first time in history.  

Human nature today is subject to international law.


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What world orders do is accommodate and manage human nature - they cannot create desirable, and cannot expunge undesirable components.

Er... rule of law codifies "desirable and undesirable componenets" (of human nature), and  establishes the machinery - sanctions etc , to enforce the law. 


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And world orders come and go.

You are mistakenly referring to the rise and fall of empires, an anachronism under a regime of international law. 

(What might change is the provisions of the law, but the principles of the UNUDHR - universal well-being and security - are eternal, obviously. 


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People who have not spent most of their life isolated understand this relatively early in life.

I'll be generous.....and just say.... nice try, but no cigar. :-)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:20am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:06am: Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.    Jewish claims to Palestine is based on territorial right by religious affiliation - not a bogus claim.

Of course religious claims to territory (eg "The Promised Land")  are bogus. That I even have to say that is amazing. [And the sad fact is 'The Peoples of the Book' don't recognize their brotherhood]. 


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With Taiwan and Tibet, when the modern Chinese state collapses, it's almost certain that the world order of the day will quickly recognise Taiwan and Tibet as independent sovereign states.

Speculation - not to say in your dreams.....

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:29am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:12am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:06am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:46am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 9:30am: Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations. (I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC). Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations  gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946.  etc, etc.  Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history Quote: True; it's 'natural law' in the animal kingdom. and are fundamental features of our nature.[quote] A dismal conservative ideation; "nature" is subject to reason, among homosapiens. [quote]Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory. Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.    [quote]However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection...... All 'inadmissible' under internatinal law, since 1946.  [quote] then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors. See above; but in any case a majority of UN members, ie all nations of the world,  are in favour of UN res 242. Human nature pre-dates 1946.

Your dismal conservative ideation; the human cortex (thinking brain) also predates 1946, but only in 1946 was international  law signed up to by all nations...beginning a 'new world order.' 

Human nature today is subject to international law.


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What world orders do is accommodate and manage human nature - they cannot create desirable, and cannot expunge undesirable components.

Er... rule of law codifies "desirable an undesirable componenets" (of human nature), and  establish the machinery - sanctions etc , to enforce the law. 


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And world orders come and go.

You are mistakenly referring to the rise and fall of empires, an anachronism under a regime of international law. 

(What might change is the provisions of the law, but the principles of the UNUDHR - universal well-being and security - are eternal, obviously. 


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People who have not spent most of their life isolated understand this relatively early in life.

I'll be generous.....and just say.... nice try, but no cigar. :-)
[/quote]
Law is dependent on the societies it serves - what is legal and acceptable in one jurisdiction can be the reverse in another.

International law is predicated on world concensus at a given historical time.

Human nature, including its contemporary comprehension, influences and informs societal sensibilities, which influence and inform lawmakers.

When societal sensibilities and circumstances change, the law changes to accommodate and manage them.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:37am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:20am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:06am: Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.    Jewish claims to Palestine is based on territorial right by religious affiliation - not a bogus claim. Of course religious claims to territory (eg "The Promised Land")  are bogus. That I even have to say that is amazing. [And the sad fact is 'The Peoples of the Book' don't recognize their brotherhood].  Quote: With Taiwan and Tibet, when the modern Chinese state collapses, it's almost certain that the world order of the day will quickly recognise Taiwan and Tibet as independent sovereign states. Speculation - not to say in your dreams.....

The Jewish religious claim is no different to a cultural claim - both may be contentious, but they are not bogus.

Looks like you and Xi have one thing in common - you're both isolated from reality.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:42am:

Law is dependent on the societies it serves - what is legal and acceptable in one jurisdiction can be the reverse in another. International law is predicated on world concensus at a given historical time. Human nature, including its contemporary comprehension, influences and informs societal sensibilities, which influence and inform lawmakers. When societal sensibilities and circumstances change, the law changes to accommodate and manage them.

That's conservative progressivism for ya!!   Works as it should...

This...... errrr..... fall of empires that no longer exist under international law .............. does that include the former Aboriginal empires wrought at the point of spear and nulla-nulla?  Or are they .... you know.... exempt and now called 'land claims' over massive swathes of land they never use or used?

Do we have one law in this country or a hundred or more?  Kind of a 'national law' ..... one for all, all for one - not every man for himself?


... torpedoes in the water! ............

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:37am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:20am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:06am: Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus. But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted  that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.    Jewish claims to Palestine is based on territorial right by religious affiliation - not a bogus claim. Of course religious claims to territory (eg "The Promised Land")  are bogus. That I even have to say that is amazing. [And the sad fact is 'The Peoples of the Book' don't recognize their brotherhood].  Quote: With Taiwan and Tibet, when the modern Chinese state collapses, it's almost certain that the world order of the day will quickly recognise Taiwan and Tibet as independent sovereign states. Speculation - not to say in your dreams..... The Jewish religious claim is no different to a cultural claim - both may be contentious, but they are not bogus.

The Jewish settlers' claims to the WB are  bogus, based on OT "Promised Land" mythology eg as  spouted by the FITH Jewish murderer of PM Rabin.


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Looks like you and Xi have one thing in common - you're both isolated from reality.

Resorting to ad hominems again...again, no cigar...

That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:54am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:45am: The Jewish religious claim is no different to a cultural claim - both may be contentious, but they are not bogus. The Jewish settlers' claims to the WB are  bogus, based on OT "Promised Land" mythology eg as  spouted by the FITH Jewish murderer of PM Rabin. Quote: Looks like you and Xi have one thing in common - you're both isolated from reality. Resorting to ad hominems again...again, no cigar... That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity.

The Jewish Tanakh (the Christian Old Testament) is the current text that defines modern Jews religiously and culturally in the present. It's not an ancient claim recently resurrected, it has existed in Jewish religion and culture consistently, for thousands of years to the present day.

Not only is it worthy of a cigar, it wins the whole factory.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:48am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:42am: Law is dependent on the societies it serves - what is legal and acceptable in one jurisdiction can be the reverse in another. International law is predicated on world concensus at a given historical time. Human nature, including its contemporary comprehension, influences and informs societal sensibilities, which influence and inform lawmakers. When societal sensibilities and circumstances change, the law changes to accommodate and manage them. That's conservative progressivism for ya!!   Works as it should...

It applies to liberal progressivism as well - usually predicated on how to accommodate and manage youthful aspirations and expectations.

It's not a left/right thing.

How different pre-boomer societal sensibilities were to boomer and post-boomer sensibilities that have led to dramatic changes to the law.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:54am:

That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity.

All law is man-made.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:48am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:42am: Law is dependent on the societies it serves - what is legal and acceptable in one jurisdiction can be the reverse in another. International law is predicated on world concensus at a given historical time. Human nature, including its contemporary comprehension, influences and informs societal sensibilities, which influence and inform lawmakers. When societal sensibilities and circumstances change, the law changes to accommodate and manage them. That's conservative progressivism for ya!!   Works as it should... It applies to liberal progressivism as well - usually predicated on how to accommodate and manage youthful aspirations and expectations. It's not a left/right thing. How different pre-boomer societal sensibilities were to boomer and post-boomer sensibilities that have led to dramatic changes to the law.

Aye, there could be some truth in what you say - but the fact remains - an unjust law is not law at all, and no unjust law may be placed upon a people by the sole act of a bunch of clowns raising their hands in unison... there are rules, you see... one of which is that the 'independent' courts (LMFAO) must first guarantee by the proper standards that a legislation passed as law actually fits the requirements for Law.... (note the difference) ... and if it does not - if it in any way does not subscribe to the fundamental rules surrounding law - then it must be struck down at first glance.

Such things as discriminatory laws are in that category - if they are not equal rights as required by law - then adios, baby ... the courts are required to do right by all equally under Law (not under law, legislation or regulation, the last of which must be under the same encompassment as any other governance, and the first two of which must first pass that Test of Law) as per their oath of office - and NOT by the oath of office as applies to police - to uphold the law/legislation as WRITTEN.

It is therefore incumbent upon the courts to properly oversee all legislation before it can be passed into Law... THAT is one major component of theproper  'separation of powers' between state and Law that MUST b e properly established for the first time in this (and quite a few other nations) nation.

Ergo - until it has passed the proper test of Law - a law cannot be Law..... and may, and always will remain until properly validated, an unjust law .... you'll get there one day....

Now then - about that crying need to set these 'courts' on their proper path....

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:54am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:45am: The Jewish religious claim is no different to a cultural claim - both may be contentious, but they are not bogus. The Jewish settlers' claims to the WB are  bogus, based on OT "Promised Land" mythology eg as  spouted by the FITH Jewish murderer of PM Rabin. Quote: Looks like you and Xi have one thing in common - you're both isolated from reality. Resorting to ad hominems again...again, no cigar... That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity. The Jewish Tanakh (the Christian Old Testament) is the current text that defines modern Jews religiously and culturally in the present.

Er ...magical thinking?

An anachronistic, largely bronze-age text cited eg, by Rabin's murderer, "defines Jews in the present"?

This is why these texts need to be exposed for what they are, ie historical records of ancient mythologies.   


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It's not an ancient claim recently resurrected, it has existed in Jewish religion and culture consistently, for thousands of years to the present day.

Yes - like the present claim that the Koran is the final true revelation of the Word of God.

Good one....


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Not only is it worthy of a cigar, it wins the whole factory.

Apart from some human wisdom contained within its pages, it's worthy of being tossed into the dust-bin of history. (The NT has much more going for it).

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:42am:

Law is dependent on the societies it serves - what is legal and acceptable in one jurisdiction can be the reverse in another.

You are merely arguing against an international  rules- based order; that's your reptilian brain,  driving non- reasoning instinct, as usual.


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International law is predicated on world concensus at a given historical time.

Yeh .... like at San Fransico in 1946, with much of the world laying in self-inflicted ruins; but the human 'neanderthals' with their triumphant instincts STILL  won the day, demanding the UNSC veto...   


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Human nature, including its contemporary comprehension, influences and informs societal sensibilities, which influence and inform lawmakers.

Yeh....  pity about that.

Law needs to be directed to the cause of universal well-being and security.


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When societal sensibilities and circumstances change, the law changes to accommodate and manage them.

Pity about "sensibilities"; with acquiesence in the slaughter of children which is still considered 'unavoidable' .....

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:54am: That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity. All law is man-made.

Yeh...but some law is made by modern day Neanderthals like you....(not an ad hominem, because you are indeed arguing for the triump of instinct over reason...  hence a "Neanderthal", by definition).

5000 ( + 500?) children recently slaughtered, to serve your sick  "freedom" ideology. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 1:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 11:17am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:54am: That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity. All law is man-made. Yeh...but some law is made by modern day Neanderthals like you....(not an ad hominem, because you are indeed arguing for the triump of instinct over reason...  hence a "Neanderthal", by definition). 5000 ( + 500?) children recently slaughtered, to serve your sick  "freedom" ideology.

Awww... you're a lonely old bitch! Have you tried seniors' lawn bowls?

Human instinct and sensibility always trump reason. Human reason retrospectively justifies instinct and sensibility.

Reason arises from human instincts and sensibilities.

Where else can law through reason arise from? Or are you proposing that a transcendental interventionist god actually writes laws on stone tablets that transcend or contradict human instinct and sensibility?

Either that or you're deifying reason - as if reason itself was a universal force for good - never for the worse.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 1:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 1:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 11:17am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:54am: That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity. All law is man-made. Yeh...but some law is made by modern day Neanderthals like you....(not an ad hominem, because you are indeed arguing for the triump of instinct over reason...  hence a "Neanderthal", by definition). 5000 ( + 500?) children recently slaughtered, to serve your sick  "freedom" ideology.  Awww... you're a lonely old bitch! Have you tried seniors' lawn bowls?

Back to the ad hominems.... but let's read on, to see you continue making a fool of yourself with your delusional individual freedom/rights ideology


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Human instinct and sensibility always trump reason. Human reason retrospectively justifies instinct and sensibility.

Reason encompasses 'sensibility'/perception - unless you are a Neanderthal like yourself. 


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Reason arises from human instincts and sensibilities.

There you are, hung by your own ignorance and stupidty; reason arises from the capacity to think (endowed by the human cortex brain), independently of instinct. 


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Where else can law through reason arise from?

From the cortex brain, dummy.


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Or are you proposing that a transcendental interventionist god actually writes laws on stone tablets that transcend or contradict human instinct and sensibility?

No....now you have descended to asking  FD's silly questions.


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Either that or you're deifying reason - as if reason itself was a universal force for good - never for the worse.

Pure reason - following from the capacity for analysis - is neither good or evil (it's a gift of God granted to humans); but it can distinguish between good or evil, and make laws on behalf of universal well-being and collective security. 

Or it can be crippled by your reptilian brain which is still kicking and screaming after a billion years of evolution....

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 4:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 1:38pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 1:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 11:17am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:54am: That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity. All law is man-made. Yeh...but some law is made by modern day Neanderthals like you....(not an ad hominem, because you are indeed arguing for the triump of instinct over reason...  hence a "Neanderthal", by definition). 5000 ( + 500?) children recently slaughtered, to serve your sick  "freedom" ideology.  Awww... you're a lonely old bitch! Have you tried seniors' lawn bowls? Back to the ad hominems.... but let's read on, to see you continue making a fool of yourself with your delusional individual freedom/rights ideology Quote: Human instinct and sensibility always trump reason. Human reason retrospectively justifies instinct and sensibility. Reason encompasses 'sensibility'/perception - unless you are a Neanderthal like yourself.  [quote]Reason arises from human instincts and sensibilities.

There you are, hung by your own ignorance and stupidty; reason arises from the capacity to think (endowed by the human cortex brain), independently of instinct. 


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Where else can law through reason arise from?

From the cortex brain, dummy.


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Or are you proposing that a transcendental interventionist god actually writes laws on stone tablets that transcend or contradict human instinct and sensibility?

No....now you have descended to asking  FD's silly questions.


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Either that or you're deifying reason - as if reason itself was a universal force for good - never for the worse.

Pure reason - following from the capacity for analysis - is neither good or evil (it's a gift of God granted to humans); but it can distinguish between good or evil, and make laws on behalf of universal well-being and collective security. 

Or it can be crippled by your reptilian brain which is still kicking and screaming after a billion years of evolution....[/quote]
Geez, where to start with this dribble...

Define perception such that it's not just a synonym of sensibility or a component of it.


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Reason arises from a capacity to think.

As all humans think, explain the significance of this where thought does not arise from, and is not informed by, human instinct and sensibility.


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[Reason] arises from the cortex brain.

Explain this where the cortex brain is separate and independent of, and is not informed by, human instinct and sensibility.


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Reason is 'a gift of God granted to humans'

so you can insinuate a deity into your argument, but Jews can't, then. And if the deity is wrathful?


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and make laws on behalf of universal well-being and collective security.

What divine revelation are you referring to that spoke of 'universal well-being and collective security'?

Or do you think a god spoke to you directly after the nurse spiked your milk with morphine?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 5:43pm:

Or do you think a god spoke to you directly after the nurse spiked your milk with morphine?

The CCP.

Anyway, Poppets - now is a good time to return to the subject of those two men killed in Gaza for 'spying for the Israelis' - more likely they were denounced by an enemy, or simply so that HAMAS could 'make a statement' and so forth - I can't see anyone there seriously 'spying for Israel'...

I have pointed out to you time and again the very real perils inherent in any regime of 'guilt by accusation' - tell me this - what real chance did those men have once they were accused and then held up to the standards of an emotion driven court such as we see increasingly even here in the once-civilised west, its essential civilisation based on calm reason as opposed to some emotional nightmare imposed by every ratbag who comes along with a grievance?

I do so again, in the context of asking simply - "What real chance did those men have once they were accused?" ... and do not laugh.... for you will not be he who laughs last...

Further in that vein - how interesting it is to see those who come here with the greatest dose of emotion driven insanity, are the very ones who also bring with them the criticism that somehow this is a small, backwoods, forum filled with nobodies... and yet they come here to spread their vitriol.....

Rather than being a small back woods forum - this is as close to a perfect microcosm as you will find in Poor Fellow My Country at this time - with every failed and flawed approach to the New Civilisation being shown clearly for what it is - and the ways in which people think and behave in reality clear for all to see...

The recent Mod election showed us the true depths to which the human spirit can fall... and that is why political flunkies are under orders to actually check in here and separate the wheat from the dross.... I've told you that I've seen and heard the exact same words uttered here by some in the utterances of political hacks ... and that is why.

Here is Microcosm..... keep up the good work, including those of you so lost you cannot even begin to see Reason ...... you are demonstrating to the world the range of thinking and non-thinking that is out there on countless subjects.  Now go - tell the school children where they are wrong about Palestine .....


...we Aussies were that close to going out..... but there was one man who taught us to unite, to organise, to fight against the party machines.... his name was Connor, Sarah - John Connor - your son ... and he once said to me long ago that the battle for the future begins tonight.... and I didn't understand then what he meant... except that now is tonight, and he has sent me back from the future to tell you this.... his code name is The Grappler.... and he said to tell you that you must be stronger than you could ever imagine yourself to be...... that's all I can tell you .... but we have to move... and move quickly before that Terminator finds us.... come on.....

I am not surprised that this attack by HAMAS occured when it did,

The Israelis has thousands of Arabs imprisoned without trial or ability to appeal, even kids who threw rocks at soldiers etc.

Serves the bastards right in my opinion!

As that saying goes

"their NAZI masters taught them well" !

>:( >:(

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 5:43pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 4:39pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 1:38pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 1:15pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 11:17am: thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26th, 2023 at 10:54am: That you can't see the difference between 'natural'/  instinctive law, and man-made law in a new world order,  is your intellectual incapacity. All law is man-made. Yeh...but some law is made by modern day Neanderthals like you....(not an ad hominem, because you are indeed arguing for the triump of instinct over reason...  hence a "Neanderthal", by definition). 5000 ( + 500?) children recently slaughtered, to serve your sick  "freedom" ideology.  Awww... you're a lonely old bitch! Have you tried seniors' lawn bowls? Back to the ad hominems.... but let's read on, to see you continue making a fool of yourself with your delusional individual freedom/rights ideology Quote: Human instinct and sensibility always trump reason. Human reason retrospectively justifies instinct and sensibility. Reason encompasses 'sensibility'/perception - unless you are a Neanderthal like yourself.  [quote]Reason arises from human instincts and sensibilities. There you are, hung by your own ignorance and stupidty; reason arises from the capacity to think (endowed by the human cortex brain), independently of instinct.  [quote]Where else can law through reason arise from?

From the cortex brain, dummy.


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Or are you proposing that a transcendental interventionist god actually writes laws on stone tablets that transcend or contradict human instinct and sensibility?

No....now you have descended to asking  FD's silly questions.


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Either that or you're deifying reason - as if reason itself was a universal force for good - never for the worse.

Pure reason - following from the capacity for analysis - is neither good or evil (it's a gift of God granted to humans); but it can distinguish between good or evil, and make laws on behalf of universal well-being and collective security. 

Or it can be crippled by your reptilian brain which is still kicking and screaming after a billion years of evolution....[/quote]

Geez, where to start with this dribble... [/quote]

"Dribble"....like this self-serving justification of your neanderthal instincts:

"Reason arises from human instincts and sensibilities".

Reason - analytical thinking -  is not instinct,  obviously.  Animals don't reason. 


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Define perception such that it's not just a synonym of sensibility or a component of it.

Perception isn't reasoning, it's perceiving via the senses. 


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GD Reason arises from a capacity to think. As all humans think, explain the significance of this where thought does not arise from, and is not informed by, human instinct and sensibility.

It's the task of human civilization to free itself from thinking influenced by instinct, where this results in catastrophe.

"Civilization is a race between education (my edit: "instinct-free thinking") and catastrophe" HG Wells.


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GD [Reason] arises from the cortex brain. Explain this where the cortex brain is separate and independent of, and is not informed by, human instinct and sensibility.

The cortex brain is an evolved appendage to the the reptilian brain. The task of human civilization is to free itself from the negative consequences of mindless instinct, where these result in disaster eg war.  Start by getting rid of the veto in the UNSC., and implementing the provisions of the UNUDHR.   


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GD Reason is 'a gift of God granted to humans' so you can insinuate a deity into your argument, but Jews can't, then. And if the deity is wrathful?

The Jewish God IS wrathful, authourizing genocide  (Moses had to intecede on even the Jews' behalf to stop God destroying them also...); that's why Marcion, when collating texts for the evolving NT canon in the first century AD, rejected the OT entirely. But reason in conjunction with  'reverence for life' (Albert Schweitzer)  is joyful. 


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GD and make laws on behalf of universal well-being and collective security. What divine revelation are you referring to that spoke of 'universal well-being and collective security'?

See artists and humanitarians  like Schweitzer (above).


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Or do you think a god spoke to you directly after the nurse spiked your milk with morphine?

Your desperate, instinctive, unthinking  'freedom or death' ideation has crippled your mind, obviously. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2023 at 8:50am:

Define perception such that it's not just a synonym of sensibility or a component of it.

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Perception isn't reasoning, it's perceiving via the senses.

You didn't explain perception such that it's not just a synonym of sensibility or a component of it - you spewed up 'perception is perceiving'.

Let me help you out of your mudhole. Perception is a component of sensibility. We perceive what we learn to see and hear - it's why the same experiences in separate individuals, when processed through different cultural filters, arrive at different conclusions about what was perceived and what those perceptions mean relative to the individuals' sensibility.


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GD Reason arises from a capacity to think. As all humans think, explain the significance of this where thought does not arise from, and is not informed by, human instinct and sensibility.

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It's the task of human civilization to free itself from thinking influenced by instinct, where this results in catastrophe.

How do you think or reason uninfluenced by human instinct and sensibility?

In what way would you know you're thinking or reasoning without them being informed by human instinct and sensibility?


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GD [Reason] arises from the cortex brain. Explain this where the cortex brain is separate and independent of, and is not informed by, human instinct and sensibility. The cortex brain is an evolved appendage to the the reptilian brain. The task of human civilization is to free itself from the negative consequences of mindless instinct, where these result in disaster eg war.

The cerebral cortex evolved from the mammalian brain structure and is present in all mammalian brains - to a greater or lesser degree depending on species.

Reasoning capacity among mammalian species relative to humans is a matter of degree not kind.

It is informed by instinct arising from lower brain structures and integrates them with human sensibilities informed by lower and higher brain functions.


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GD Reason is 'a gift of God granted to humans' so you can insinuate a deity into your argument, but Jews can't, then. And if the deity is wrathful?

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The Jewish God IS wrathful, authourizing genocide  (Moses had to intecede on even the Jews' behalf to stop God destroying them also...); that's why Marcion, when collating texts for the evolving NT canon in the first century AD, rejected the OT entirely. But reason in conjunction with  'reverence for life' (Albert Schweitzer)  is joyful.

So you can insinuate a deity into your argument, but Jews can't, then. And is your deity wrathful, or just your internal dialogue arising from your isolation from society and community?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 27^th, 2023 at 9:29am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27th, 2023 at 8:50am: Define perception such that it's not just a synonym of sensibility or a component of it. Quote: Perception isn't reasoning, it's perceiving via the senses. You didn't explain perception such that it's not just a synonym of sensibility or a component of it - you spewed up 'perception is perceiving'. Let me help you out of your mudhole. Perception is a component of sensibility.

Which means nothing more than perception is a component of consciousness.  Dogs have it.  Nothing to do with reason, the capacity for which is evolution's gift to homo sapiens. 


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We perceive what we learn to see and hear -

Goobledegook: conscious beings see and hear without having to learn to perceive, a jelly fish can 'perceive' its environment.   


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it's why the same experiences in separate individuals, when processed through different cultural filters, arrive at different conclusions about what was perceived and what those perceptions mean relative to the individuals' sensibility.

And what of reality... you are still confusing perception with reason, which tells us all ideological differences are delusional; there is only one truth/reality. 


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How do you think or reason uninfluenced by human instinct and sensibility?

By thinking and learning, and becoming 'enlightened' - ie self-aware (of one's motivations); "know thyself".


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In what way would you know you're thinking or reasoning without them being informed by human instinct and sensibility?

When life, not death,  is the outcome of the thinking.


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The cerebral cortex evolved from the mammalian brain structure and is present in all mammalian brains - to a greater or lesser degree depending on species.

So far, so good, not contradicting what I said.


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Reasoning capacity among mammalian species relative to humans is a matter of degree not kind.

...the degree meaning able to CHOOSE between possible behaviours, other than driven by instinct, eg "make love not war...".


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It is informed by instinct arising from lower brain structures and integrates them with human sensibilities informed by lower and higher brain functions.

"Informed by"...and open to rejection by the reasoning person, as opposed to the merely 'thinking' person  who is deluded eg,  by "freedom or death" ideation. 


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So you can insinuate a deity into your argument, but Jews can't, then.

And I explained why, but it went straight over your brain, crippled by its "freedom or death"  ideation.

Schweitzer's God is referenced in the concept of'reverence for life',  the Jewish God is a bronze-age "jealous God" given to authorizing genocide.

In any case, no need to "insinuate"  a God;  consciousness and the possibility for humans to experience transcendence don't require belief in ancient scripture.
 

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And is your deity wrathful, or just your internal dialogue arising from your isolation from society and community?

Now you are just mindlessly repeating what you have said previously; obviously 'reverence for life' is the opposite to your 'freedom or death' ideation which is based on opposing ideologies. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2023 at 10:34am:

Let me help you out of your mudhole. Perception is a component of sensibility. Which means nothing more than perception is a component of consciousness.  Dogs have it.  Nothing to do with reason, the capacity for which is evolution's gift to homo sapiens.

High-order primates reason all the time. As do other mammals like all species of canine. You thinking is 19th century.


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[quote]We perceive what we learn to see and hear -

Goobledegook: conscious beings see and hear without having to learn to perceive, a jelly fish can 'perceive' its environment.[/quote]   
Let me help you. Blind people from birth whose sight is restored don't just open their eyes and see what is to be seen. As they have not learned to perceive anything nor been informed of what these perceptions mean - they see only a meaningless kaleidoscope of colour.


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[quote]it's why the same experiences in separate individuals, when processed through different cultural filters, arrive at different conclusions about what was perceived and what those perceptions mean relative to the individuals' sensibility.

And what of reality... you are still confusing perception with reason, which tells us all ideological differences are delusional; there is only one truth/reality.  [/quote]
Let me help again. Witnesses to the same incident, standing alongside each other, cam perceive and reason what they have witnessed and be entirely at odds with each other about what happened. Why is that, you think?


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[quote]How do you think or reason uninfluenced by human instinct and sensibility?

By thinking and learning, and becoming 'enlightened' - ie self-aware (of one's motivations); "know thyself". [/quote]

What does knowing yourself mean in isolation from human instinct and sensibility?


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[quote]In what way would you know you're thinking or reasoning without them being informed by human instinct and sensibility?

When life, not death,  is the outcome of the thinking. [/quote]

Life, not death is exactly the outcome that human instinct is for.
That which harms me = bad. That which helps me = good.

It's why when we hear a sudden loud noise, we instinctively crouch to protect our organs.


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Reasoning capacity among mammalian species relative to humans is a matter of degree not kind.

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...the degree meaning able to CHOOSE between possible behaviours, other than driven by instinct, eg "make love not war...".

How do we choose anything that is not informed by human instinct and sensibility?


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It is informed by instinct arising from lower brain structures and integrates them with human sensibilities informed by lower and higher brain functions. "Informed by"...and open to rejection by the reasoning person, as opposed to the merely 'thinking' person who is deluded eg,  by "freedom or death" ideation.

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[quote]So you can insinuate a deity into your argument, but Jews can't, then.

And I explained why, but it went straight over your brain, crippled by its "freedom or death"  ideation.[/quote]
No. You crapped on about Schweitzer.

What you think is a god that has reverence for life, like your erotic obsession with the CCP, maybe for others a disease that needs to be eradicated.

Given you insinuated a deity into your argument to explain reason, you left reason behind and wafted off into mysticism.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 27^th, 2023 at 10:57am:

What does knowing yourself mean in isolation from human instinct and sensibility?

It means knowing (being aware of) both instinct, and your capacity to think independently of it, something animals can't do.  Of course, instinct is unconscious, but its existance can be inferred by observation.


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Life, not death is exactly the outcome that human instinct is for.

.

Of course, nature began with instinct as the organism's survival mechanism.  But unmanaged instinct in the aggregate runs the risk of destruction, given men's abilities to engage in technology-enhanced arms races,  and the potential  for MAD.


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That which harms me = bad. That which helps me = good.

Yes, at the individual level; but an arms race might result in catastrophe.


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It's why when we hear a sudden loud noise, we instinctively crouch to protect our organs.

That's right, the unthinking survival mechanism, as opposed to a reasoned plan to eg, "save mankind from the scourge of war" (war being an unreasoning instinctive activity).

But you need to be dragged kicking and screaming to implement such a plan, because it opposes your (unthinking) instincts. 


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How do we choose anything that is not informed by human instinct and sensibility?

By making conscious choices to do so, eg to "save n mankind from the scorge of war" (eg, under a regime of international law which outlaws war as a means of dispute settlement).


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No. You crapped on about Schweitzer.

Because Schweitzer was a  non-orthodox  Christian who actually believed in - and practiced - Christ's  Great Commandments: "Love God and love one-another". 

...the opposite of your "freedom, or death (to those who oppose your ideology) ideation, demanding the slaughter of you, your 'enemy', or often both.


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What you think is a god that has reverence for life, like your erotic obsession with the CCP, maybe for others a disease that needs to be eradicated.

So now you reveal your 'thinking" - much less reasoning -   in all its monstrosity; life, and reverence for it, is now a "disease that needs to be eradicated" according to you.

[I have already noted your penchant for dealing with unwanted ideology - unwanted by you - via slaughter, rather than education]. 


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Given you insinuated a deity into your argument to explain reason, you left reason behind and wafted off into mysticism.

Explained above, with reference to Schweitzer. who was inspired by "Love God and love oneanother" - an example of pure life affriming reason, from the Jew called Chrst, 2000 years ago.

As opposed to the death-affirming, instinct-driven unreason of your "freedom or death" ideation.....