https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_0VqoUs69Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2YceSmYE_o

americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 4:30pm:

americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive.

They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends; their country is also a repository of English language as is much of their spelling.

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 5:20pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends; their country is also a repository of English language as is much of their spelling.

Really?  I suppose from the 18th century when they were established but English has moved on since  then.  I was just reading a thread, on another forum, about what would happen if the US and the UK were mutually unintelligible.  George Bernard Shaw once quipped that the US and the UK were divided by a common language.  I wonder what he was referring to?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 5:20pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends  ..........

unless you have a differing view to them.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 5:37pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 5:20pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends; their country is also a repository of English language as is much of their spelling. Really?  I suppose from the 18th century when they were established but English has moved on since  then.  I was just reading a thread, on another forum, about what would happen if the US and the UK were mutually unintelligible.  George Bernard Shaw once quipped that the US and the UK were divided by a common language.  I wonder what he was referring to?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Actually, Oscar Wilde, The Canterville Ghost (1887):

Many American ladies on leaving their native land adopt an appearance of chronic ill-health, under the impression that it is a form of European refinement, but Mrs. Otis had never fallen into this error. She had a magnificent constitution, and a really wonderful amount of animal spirits. Indeed, in many respects, she was quite English, and was an excellent example of the fact that we have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14522/14522-h/14522-h.htm

Anyway, Sprinty made a very silly generalisation about Americans. Had it been about the Musulmans, you BBwian would have been clucking quite differently - equally stupidly but quite differently.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 4:30pm:

americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive.

Don't forget religious and hypocritical....Other than that I assume some are nice people???

;) ;) ;)

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 5:20pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends; their country is also a repository of English language as is much of their spelling.

move there then

JC Denton wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 8:13pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 5:20pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends; their country is also a repository of English language as is much of their spelling. move there then

The old boy tried that, did you know?

He set sail for Calcutta if you please. Ended up in the doledrums and washed up in the New World, poor thing.

All good, he saw all these backward, tribal tinted races and thought they were Injuns, the silly old fool.

How, they said. And how, he said.

You had to be there. The old boy learned his English watching Bob Hope in those God-awful On the Road matinees.

Anyway, he didn't like the culture over in America and settled on jolly old Oz. More British, he thought. He later found out we'd overturned the White Australia Policy 30 years before he got here, can you believe? Missed it by that much.

And he had no idea about our Boongs. He thought we were like Rhodesia or South Africa without the natives, just lots of soaked old fools in pith helmets and Bombay bloomers.

Too late now, of course. We're stuck with him. Now he pretends he's a passport-carrying Britisher, when he's really just a sunburnt old half-Kraut with sclerosis of the liver. Now you have to point Australia out on the globe and remind him we're not in England. He's always forgetting.

To his credit, I think he's slowly starting to dawn, but one needs to take time when dealing with the NESBers. Short words, lots of gestures and an abundance of patience.

He still thinks he's got a passport. No no, we say, Denmark - Australia. There - here. You get a vote in your Reichstag, old boy, you don't get a say down here.

He still doesn't get it.

Why move?
Australia is a much better place, despite certain shortcomings.

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 10:34pm:

Why move? Australia is a much better place, despite certain shortcomings.

The old boy hates the place. He thinks we're Pakis.

You can't please everybody, dear.

philperth2010 wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 7:32pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. Don't forget religious and hypocritical....Other than that I assume some are nice people??? I would think so, yes ;) ;) ;)

Well the Beta 'loser' males of America tend to come from the Black (Africa) & Grey (Oceania) males who are the 'Wankers' of the Country, in love with the size of their dicks. The 'Yobbo' Beta male 'losers' are the Blue (Europe) and Yellow (Asia) - these Wankers & Yobbos belong to the Team: Big Brother Media.

The New World Order team consists of Alpha males and they are the Powerful White (Sahul) and Green (S.America) males with the Alpha Breeders being the Brown (Middle-East) and of course the Red (N.America) themselves.

So you can see, when it comes to 'Culture' in USA - like every other region, it is not absolute in its culture as a single entity, it's made up of a representation from the other Regions as well.

Let's take the Media (Music/Entertainment) itself for an example. In the hands of its Wanker male beta's - its a real negative in N.America. But in the hands of its Alpha women - its a positive.

That's why you will see that Music in Europe is a positive ruled by Alpha Males. But when it comes to N.America & Sahul (Aust) - these 'Music' males become Beta's in the form of American Wankers and Australian Yobbos. Take a look at Peccary for example. Now there's a 'Beta' if ever there was one. American Music males try to be like 'Artists' but fail and its aimed at Youth (for the sex). Australian (Sahul) Music males try to do the same, but it is aimed at Elderly (but for $$$) - as all things Music & Entertainment is 'old' here.  ;)

This is how you discern 'Culture'. Let JaSin of Peanut Butter educate you all on it in his own cultural way. ;) :D

So when you say 'American Culture' - let's take into account your perception of view. Do you see it through the lens of the Lefty/Big Brother Media of America, that obviously is bias against the Religious (NWO) Americans?? Is it through the obesity Yobbos of the Food/Cooking/Restaurant Americans and their bias against the Military orientated Americans who have more money/budget and complain always about 'the food'?

Australian Culture?
Is Australia truly 'all' just like Queensland? FD will say so.

JC Denton wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 1:24pm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_0VqoUs69Y

What you see JC Denton is the Black (& Grey) male 'Wanker' denigration of his women because they are the Alphas, not them.
There is a great doco that goes into this about how Black African-American males would treat their women like crap and in the Music industry.
"We were made that a complaint against our Black men was like a complaint (Rape) against our Race!"

Yes, by 'majority' - Black Women are the Positive in America, the males are 'Negative'. This clip is a PIMP MUSIC CLIP and shows the denigration of Black Women. This is what the Music-Media is in the hands of the Males.
Pretty sad to see. Joe Biden Term for you.

What have the Americans done for us anyway?

Established modern democracy that became the model for the Australian 'Washminster' Consitution

Created the modern world of science and technology

Defended global trade routes allowing Australian exports to be sold anywhere in the world

Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure

Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history

Ended the Australian colonial mindset

Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment

...

Karnal wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 10:43pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 10:34pm: Why move? Australia is a much better place, despite certain shortcomings. The old boy hates the place. He thinks we're Pakis. You can't please everybody, dear.

Why would anyone ever think that \you were Pakis?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:16am:

What have the Americans done for us anyway? Established modern democracy that became the model for the Australian 'Washminster' Consitution Created the modern world of science and technology Defended global trade routes allowing Australian exports to be sold anywhere in the world Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history Ended the Australian colonial mindset Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment ...

America has done nothing for the world.
America has made the World do everything for it.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:16am:

What have the Americans done for us anyway? Established modern democracy that became the model for the Australian 'Washminster' Consitution Created the modern world of science and technology

Debatable.  Most of the world's inventions occurred separate from the US, such as WiFi, an Australian invention.


Quote:

Defended global trade routes allowing Australian exports to be sold anywhere in the world

Debatable. The US defended global trade routes for it's own purposes, to enable it to to sell it's goods worlwide.


Quote:

Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure

Debatable. Australia was never in danger of being attacked and invaded by anybody apart from the English.


Quote:

Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history Ended the Australian colonial mindset

Debatable.  Australia's "colonial mindset" was ended by the UN rather than the US.  It was never very big anyway, except perhaps in Queensland with it's delusions of grandeur.


Quote:

Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment ...

Something the US should be proud of,  I suppose.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:16am:

What have the Americans done for us anyway? Established modern democracy that became the model for the Australian 'Washminster' Consitution Created the modern world of science and technology Defended global trade routes allowing Australian exports to be sold anywhere in the world Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history Ended the Australian colonial mindset Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment ...

Aww, how cute. Looks like the Chomsky reading Commie is seeking attention while forgoing that kangaroo poo never stinks.


Best of luck.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 12:55pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:16am: What have the Americans done for us anyway? Established modern democracy that became the model for the Australian 'Washminster' Consitution Created the modern world of science and technology Debatable.  Most of the world's inventions occurred separate from the US, such as WiFi, an Australian invention. Quote: Defended global trade routes allowing Australian exports to be sold anywhere in the world Debatable. The US defended global trade routes for it's own purposes, to enable it to to sell it's goods worlwide. [quote] Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure

Debatable. Australia was never in danger of being attacked and invaded by anybody apart from the English.


Quote:

Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history Ended the Australian colonial mindset

Debatable.  Australia's "colonial mindset" was ended by the UN rather than the US.  It was never very big anyway, except perhaps in Queensland with it's delusions of grandeur.


Quote:

Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment ...

Something the US should be proud of,  I suppose.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)
[/quote]


So...in other words....capitalism

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 12:55pm:

Debatable. The US defended global trade routes for it's own purposes, to enable it to to sell it's goods worlwide. Quote: Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure Debatable. Australia was never in danger of being attacked and invaded by anybody apart from the English. [quote] Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history Ended the Australian colonial mindset

Debatable.  Australia's "colonial mindset" was ended by the UN rather than the US.  It was never very big anyway, except perhaps in Queensland with it's delusions of grandeur.


Quote:

Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment ...

Something the US should be proud of,  I suppose.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)
[/quote]
The US does not even closely depend on world trade routes in the way Australia and the rest of the world do.

When Britain abandoned Australia to its fate in WW2. and Curtin told a panicked Australia that only the south would be defended, it was the Americans who decided that all of Australia would be defended - to the eternal gratitude of Australians then and now.

The colonial mindset was ended by the Eisenhower administration which influenced the UN on the matter.

Australian colonial servility towards Britain waned dramatically during WW2 when Australia turned to the US after Britain abandoned Australia.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 4:30pm:

americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive.

God bless America.

Marla wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 1:55pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. God bless America.

Marla. Kangaroo poo doesn't actually 'stink'.
I've actually picked up Roo-Poo.
It felt like Roo-Poo.
It smelt like Roo-Poo.
It tasted like Roo-Poo.
I put it back down and thought 'lucky I didn't step on it'.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 1:27pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 12:55pm: Debatable. The US defended global trade routes for it's own purposes, to enable it to to sell it's goods worlwide. Quote: Defended the country against attack and invasion ensuring that the Australian state would endure Debatable. Australia was never in danger of being attacked and invaded by anybody apart from the English. [quote] Ensured victory for its Allies in two of the greatest wars in world history Ended the Australian colonial mindset Debatable.  Australia's "colonial mindset" was ended by the UN rather than the US.  It was never very big anyway, except perhaps in Queensland with it's delusions of grandeur. [quote] Created entirely new genres of popular music and entertainment ...

Something the US should be proud of,  I suppose.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)
[/quote]
The US does not even closely depend on world trade routes in the way Australia and the rest of the world do.

When Britain abandoned Australia to its fate in WW2. and Curtin told a panicked Australia that only the south would be defended, it was the Americans who decided that all of Australia would be defended - to the eternal gratitude of Australians then and now.

The colonial mindset was ended by the Eisenhower administration which influenced the UN on the matter.

Australian colonial servility towards Britain waned dramatically during WW2 when Australia turned to the US after Britain abandoned Australia.
[/quote]

Unlike America that 'rejected' British influence (it threw the Holy Grail away).
Britain's direction for Australia is to 'reject' Australia.
Australia holds as tight as it can on the Holy Grail (Britain).
Because like it or not, the USA - 'is not' the answer either.
Especially when it's politics is closer to that of ancient Rome and Athens having rejected the British version.

Who would you 'politically' ally yourself to?
Italy or Britain? Germany stuck to the 'Hail Caesar' and failed.
France too will fail, because it still bases its empowerment on ancient times and to 'Rome' (Italy).
Even Italy will fail with its Roman past foundation - the MAFIA/Vatican will fail.
Leaving only Britain as the Political Euro entity.
...but Britain's failure will be to 'fade into the west' to reclaim America at the cost of its own country.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 1:27pm:

The US does not even closely depend on world trade routes in the way Australia and the rest of the world do.

The US depends on world trade routes a great deal,  without the world, the US would be broke.


Quote:

When Britain abandoned Australia to its fate in WW2. and Curtin told a panicked Australia that only the south would be defended, it was the Americans who decided that all of Australia would be defended - to the eternal gratitude of Australians then and now.

Funny, I've never read of Curtin doing such a thing.  Care to provide a quote where he did?  The Americans made no such decision, that I can recall.  Care to provide a quote that I can check?


Quote:

The colonial mindset was ended by the Eisenhower administration which influenced the UN on the matter.

Really?  You seem to have sources of information that I've never heard of.  Australia's "Colonial mindset" ended because of Australia's criticism of South Africa apartheid.  They really could do that when holding onto PNG, so they jettisoned PNG and criticised Cape Town.


Quote:

Australian colonial servility towards Britain waned dramatically during WW2 when Australia turned to the US after Britain abandoned Australia.

Partially true.  It waned because of the British habit of treating Australia, an independent Dominion as a Colony controlled from London.  It basically ended through the assertion of the ANZAC Pact which was penned in reaction to the Cairo Declaration of 1943.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 2:22pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 1:27pm: The US does not even closely depend on world trade routes in the way Australia and the rest of the world do. The US depends on world trade routes a great deal,  without the world, the US would be broke.

No, it doesn't.

The US is currently in the process of withdrawing its navy from the defence of world trade routes,

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 2:22pm:

Quote: The colonial mindset was ended by the Eisenhower administration which influenced the UN on the matter.  Really?  You seem to have sources of information that I've never heard of.  Australia's "Colonial mindset" ended because of Australia's criticism of South Africa apartheid.  They really could do that when holding onto PNG, so they jettisoned PNG and criticised Cape Town.

The Roosevelt and Truman administrations, and later the Eisenhower administration told Churchill that the days of colonialism were over - that once the war was over, Britain was to dismantle its empire by granting independence to any colony that requested it.

Colonialism's death knell occurred in 1956 when Eisenhower rebuked the British and the French over the Suez Crisis and demanded their withdrawal.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 2:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 2:22pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 1:27pm: The US does not even closely depend on world trade routes in the way Australia and the rest of the world do. The US depends on world trade routes a great deal,  without the world, the US would be broke. No, it doesn't. The US is currently in the process of withdrawing its navy from the defence of world trade routes,

Is it?  News to me.  It presently has fleets on station in the Mediterranean, the Atlantic. the Pacific and the Indian oceans.  Do you have any evidence of their withdrawing any ships, anywhere?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 2:40pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 2:28pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 2:22pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 1:27pm: The US does not even closely depend on world trade routes in the way Australia and the rest of the world do. The US depends on world trade routes a great deal,  without the world, the US would be broke. No, it doesn't. The US is currently in the process of withdrawing its navy from the defence of world trade routes, Is it?  News to me.  It presently has fleets on station in the Mediterranean, the Atlantic. the Pacific and the Indian oceans.  Do you have any evidence of their withdrawing any ships, anywhere?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

The US Navy's withdrawal as a global protector has significant implications for international trade and the global economy, potentially leading to disruptions in supply chains and the rise of Germany and China as major players.


https://eightify.app/summary/international-affairs-and-conflict/us-navy-s-withdrawal-impact-on-global-security-peter-zeihan

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 2:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 2:22pm: Quote: The colonial mindset was ended by the Eisenhower administration which influenced the UN on the matter.  Really?  You seem to have sources of information that I've never heard of.  Australia's "Colonial mindset" ended because of Australia's criticism of South Africa apartheid.  They really could do that when holding onto PNG, so they jettisoned PNG and criticised Cape Town. The Roosevelt and Truman administrations, and later the Eisenhower administration told Churchill that the days of colonialism were over - that once the war was over, Britain was to dismantle its empire by granting independence to any colony that requested it.

They had already supposedly granted it to Australia in 1901 when Australia became a Federation and a self-governing Domion.  They also ceased it for New Zealand and Canada. Empire means different things for different people.  Australia kept it's Empire in PNG and the Islands until 1975. A long time after the Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower administrations.  Tsk, tsk, tsk... ::) ::)


Quote:

Colonialism's death knell occurred in 1956 when Eisenhower rebuked the British and the French over the Suez Crisis and demanded their withdrawal.

The message seems to have taken quite a while to sink through, don't you think?  Tsk, tsk tsk...  ::) ::)

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 12:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 10:43pm: Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 10:34pm: Why move? Australia is a much better place, despite certain shortcomings. The old boy hates the place. He thinks we're Pakis. You can't please everybody, dear. Why would anyone ever think that \you were Pakis?

Because the old boy, AKA Frank or Sore End, has Superior Culture. The Pakis are an inferior subspecies.

Alas, we're only "spiritually" Pakistani. This is due to "resentment ten rupee gimme."

The old boy, you see, would prefer a little more respect and gratitude for flying down to Australia to disseminate his culture.

This isn't racist or anything. The old boy calls himself a "culturalist". His culture is universal. It's best summed up in his much-cited aphorism, "colonialism ended far too soon".

This can be changed to suit the circumstances. He recently used it in reference to slavery, which he would prefer to see reimposed on the African American population of the American deep south as a solution to their crime problem.

In Australia, he advocates a form of mass incarceration. Our blacks, you see, can't (or won't) work. Instead, they should be incarcerated, have their children placed in foster care and, where possible, civilised.

He remains somewhat pessimistic on the odds of the latter, but we should not want for trying. That, you see is what superior culture is all about. The old boy calls this "the white man's burden".

The old boy was all for the invasion of Iraq in order to civilise them. Three years later, he saw the folly of his views. It was a momentary lapse of judgement. Iraqis can never be civilised, he said, because of Islam.

Too bad, too sad, 280,000 deaths and a few trillion later, he conceded Islam to be only one criteria. Ultimately the Iraqis, like the Pakis, like the blacks, and like a few other types such as Chows, cannot be civilised because they're tinted.

But that shouldn't stop us trying. If you draw alternative views to the above conclusion, you're generally tinted, or have some form of the tar brush in you.

Thus, I'm a Paki Bastard. Greggery's a Macedonian Turd. JS is a Calabrian Dago. The only two who have gotten away without being chastised as tinted in some way are Brian, Milk Monitor, and Mothra, Frightbat. Occasionally, she's a Tinted Bint too, so that's not always right.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2024 at 5:37pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 5:20pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 4:30pm: americans are belligerent, self centered, tribal, narrow minded and aggressive. They are also warm hearted, honest, hospitable, loyal, patriotic and faithful friends; their country is also a repository of English language as is much of their spelling. Really?  I suppose from the 18th century when they were established but English has moved on since  then.  I was just reading a thread, on another forum, about what would happen if the US and the UK were mutually unintelligible.  George Bernard Shaw once quipped that the US and the UK were divided by a common language.  I wonder what he was referring to?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Actually the quip is usually attributed to Winston Churchill..
As regards the spelling they didn’t take up the French influenced ‘our’ words preferring to retain the English spellings.
Although we have dropped the ‘u’ from doctour we still retain it in ‘labour’ etc.
The US armed services retained/adopted the English salute whereas our services , other than the Navy, use the German salute.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 2:49pm:

Quote: Colonialism's death knell occurred in 1956 when Eisenhower rebuked the British and the French over the Suez Crisis and demanded their withdrawal. The message seems to have taken quite a while to sink through, don't you think?  Tsk, tsk tsk...  ::) ::)

11 years to end an empire, at the insistence of the US, is a long time to you?

Many law suits take longer than that!

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 6:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 2:49pm: Quote: Colonialism's death knell occurred in 1956 when Eisenhower rebuked the British and the French over the Suez Crisis and demanded their withdrawal. The message seems to have taken quite a while to sink through, don't you think?  Tsk, tsk tsk...  ::) ::) 11 years to end an empire, at the insistence of the US, is a long time to you? Many law suits take longer than that!

So, you acknowledge the correctness, otherwise, of what I have said, Eckhard?

People expect instant obedience to a Government directive. not the the 30 years it took Canberra to act on Roosevellt's directive.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 7:12pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 6:30pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 2:49pm: Quote: Colonialism's death knell occurred in 1956 when Eisenhower rebuked the British and the French over the Suez Crisis and demanded their withdrawal. The message seems to have taken quite a while to sink through, don't you think?  Tsk, tsk tsk...  ::) ::) 11 years to end an empire, at the insistence of the US, is a long time to you? Many law suits take longer than that! So, you acknowledge the correctness, otherwise, of what I have said, Eckhard? People expect instant obedience to a Government directive. not the the 30 years it took Canberra to act on Roosevellt's directive.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

From 1945 to 1956 is as instant as it gets when dismantling an empire, I'd say.

How many empires of history, do you know of, that were ended by a diplomatic finger-wagging from a foreign head of state?

Before WW2, the Roosevelt administration drew up plans to attack the British Empire in Canada.

The 30 years it may have taken Australia is because the US allowed it - it was not an act of defiance by the Australian government.

Karnal wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 5:18pm:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 12:46pm: Karnal wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 10:43pm: Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 2nd, 2024 at 10:34pm: Why move? Australia is a much better place, despite certain shortcomings. The old boy hates the place. He thinks we're Pakis. You can't please everybody, dear. Why would anyone ever think that \you were Pakis? Because the old boy, AKA Frank or Sore End, has Superior Culture. The Pakis are an inferior subspecies. Alas, we're only "spiritually" Pakistani. This is due to "resentment ten rupee gimme." The old boy, you see, would prefer a little more respect and gratitude for flying down to Australia to disseminate his culture. This isn't racist or anything. The old boy calls himself a "culturalist". His culture is universal. It's best summed up in his much-cited aphorism, "colonialism ended far too soon". This can be changed to suit the circumstances. He recently used it in reference to slavery, which he would prefer to see reimposed on the African American population of the American deep south as a solution to their crime problem. In Australia, he advocates a form of mass incarceration. Our blacks, you see, can't (or won't) work. Instead, they should be incarcerated, have their children placed in foster care and, where possible, civilised. He remains somewhat pessimistic on the odds of the latter, but we should not want for trying. That, you see is what superior culture is all about. The old boy calls this "the white man's burden". The old boy was all for the invasion of Iraq in order to civilise them. Three years later, he saw the folly of his views. It was a momentary lapse of judgement. Iraqis can never be civilised, he said, because of Islam. Too bad, too sad, 280,000 deaths and a few trillion later, he conceded Islam to be only one criteria. Ultimately the Iraqis, like the Pakis, like the blacks, and like a few other types such as Chows, cannot be civilised because they're tinted. But that shouldn't stop us trying. If you draw alternative views to the above conclusion, you're generally tinted, or have some form of the tar brush in you. Thus, I'm a Paki Bastard. Greggery's a Macedonian Turd. JS is a Calabrian Dago. The only two who have gotten away without being chastised as tinted in some way are Brian, Milk Monitor, and Mothra, Frightbat. Occasionally, she's a Tinted Bint too, so that's not always right.

:D :D :D :D

Gawd, it's gnawing at your rancorous heart, doesn't it, wee shalwar sniffer.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 7:17pm:

From 1945 to 1956 is as instant as it gets when dismantling an empire, I'd say.

Except it took Canberra 30 years... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)


Quote:

How many empires of history, do you know of, that were ended by a diplomatic finger-wagging from a foreign head of state?

None.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)


Quote:

Before WW2, the Roosevelt administration drew up plans to attack the British Empire in Canada.

They drew up plans to attack everybody, Plan Orange was for the Japanese Empire.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)


Quote:

The 30 years it may have taken Australia is because the US allowed it - it was not an act of defiance by the Australian government.

Funny, the US signed a security guarantee with Canberra and Wellington, funny way of disapproving of Empire... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 7:47pm:

Quote: The 30 years it may have taken Australia is because the US allowed it - it was not an act of defiance by the Australian government. Funny, the US signed a security guarantee with Canberra and Wellington, funny way of disapproving of Empire... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

ANZUS did not incorporate Australia and NZ into an imperial state.

And ANZUS was not and is not a security guarantee. It only commits the US to consult with Canberra and Wellington.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 7:47pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:17pm: From 1945 to 1956 is as instant as it gets when dismantling an empire, I'd say. Except it took Canberra 30 years... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

It took Canberra as long as the US required it to take.

Having its staunchest ally in PNG was clearly in US interests.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:47pm: Quote: The 30 years it may have taken Australia is because the US allowed it - it was not an act of defiance by the Australian government. Funny, the US signed a security guarantee with Canberra and Wellington, funny way of disapproving of Empire... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) ANZUS did not incorporate Australia and NZ into an imperial state. And ANZUS was not and is not a security guarantee. It only commits the US to consult with Canberra and Wellington.

An interesting point there, Eckhart.  ANZUS was treated as a security guarantee and sold as a security guarantee by successive Australian Governments for decades.  Today, AUKUS has superseded it and that definitely is a security guarantee,  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whenever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:47pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:17pm: From 1945 to 1956 is as instant as it gets when dismantling an empire, I'd say. Except it took Canberra 30 years... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) It took Canberra as long as the US required it to take. Having its staunchest ally in PNG was clearly in US interests.

Was it?  Really?  Why then did Washington refuse Australian requests for aid in the West New Guinea dispute of 1960 and East Timor in 1999?  When we needed assurances from our vaunted Security Guarantee, Washington refused us.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:25pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:05pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:47pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:17pm: From 1945 to 1956 is as instant as it gets when dismantling an empire, I'd say. Except it took Canberra 30 years... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) It took Canberra as long as the US required it to take. Having its staunchest ally in PNG was clearly in US interests. Was it?  Really?  Why then did Washington refuse Australian requests for aid in the West New Guinea dispute of 1960 and East Timor in 1999?  When we needed assurances from our vaunted Security Guarantee, Washington refused us.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

Yes, Australia is the US staunchest ally but that doesn't mean the US can't say no to Australia's requests.

You're confirming that the 'much-vaunted' security guarantee commits the US to nothing other than consultation.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:22pm:

ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US.

However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:25pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:05pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:47pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 7:17pm: From 1945 to 1956 is as instant as it gets when dismantling an empire, I'd say. Except it took Canberra 30 years... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) It took Canberra as long as the US required it to take. Having its staunchest ally in PNG was clearly in US interests. Was it?  Really?  Why then did Washington refuse Australian requests for aid in the West New Guinea dispute of 1960 and East Timor in 1999?  When we needed assurances from our vaunted Security Guarantee, Washington refused us.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::) Yes, Australia is the US staunchest ally but that doesn't mean the US can't say no to Australia's requests. You're confirming that the 'much-vaunted' security guarantee commits the US to nothing other than consultation.

*SIGH*  I wish someone would tell the Australian Liberal and National Parties that, Eckhart.  They seem to assume we have an insurance policy with Washington and we need to pay the premium in blood periodically. Just in case a Yellow Peril will sail over the horizon.   Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support.

Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 9:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

I can see why you are friendless, cockwomble. Anyone would be a fool to count or rely on you for anything.
Your motto is " a friend in need is a  - pest".

A Response To a Comment By Joel Persinger

Below is a response I posted to a comment on one of my videos. The comment was from someone who described himself as "a foreigner watching your channel."  You might find it interesting.  Here it is:

Whatever country you are from has a culture that is very different from ours. Consequently, you cannot see our culture in any other way than through the lens of your own. In this country and in this culture, we are citizens, not subjects. If you live in a country where you are a subject, you will never fully understand what it means to be a citizen.

Our Constitution protects the rights of the people, not the powers of the government. [u][u]Nearly every other founding document in the world protects the powers of the government and says nothing of the rights of the people[/u][/u]. If you live in a country like that, you will never fully understand what it is like to live in a country like ours.

Americans are rightfully distrustful of government by nature.  Governments are easily corrupted. Corrupt governments are responsible for oppression, poverty, starvation, and genocide. We have a government because we can't have a country without a government. However, we look upon government as a necessary evil. We detest and distrust it. Politicians are among the most distrusted and hated class of people in this country.

Our government, which is corrupt like every other, is constantly working to undermine our status as citizens and relegate us to the status of subjects. We won't allow that, so we constantly push back. This is why Trump started TruthSocial – why Elon Musk bought Twitter – why Rumble became a thing – why Cody Wilson started Defense Distributed – why I started GunGuyTV, and so on.

This is also why many Americans (probably most) prefer to be self-sufficient rather than to rely upon government. Here are some examples:

· When a power outage happens in my neighborhood, almost nobody is affected by it. Everyone either has solar with backup batteries or emergency generators.

· If there was a food shortage, just about everyone here would simply eat the food they produce. Everybody has a garden and fruit trees - most people have chickens, etc.

· When Black Lives Matter decided to start a riot in a neighboring town, men in my neighborhood armed themselves and prepared to protect the neighborhood. The police were overwhelmed. We were not.

I live in a suburb of San Diego California. You can imagine what it might be like in a rural area.

Now, with that abbreviated look at the American culture, I will try to answer your questions.

· Question: "do u feel insecure over there if u dont carry a firearm?"

No. It is not an issue of insecurity. It is an issue of self-sufficiency. I have no fear of criminals or violence because I can defend myself. I don't need to rely upon a government employee (policeman) to do it for me.

· Question: "Is it that dangerous ?"

It is no more dangerous than any other first world country. That said, violence happens in every country and sometimes in places where people feel very safe. I am unconcerned about it since I have the ability to defend myself against criminal violence.

· Question: "That of u leave your home without u feel u just prey ?"

No. Why would I feel like prey? I'm not. I'm an armed American citizen. Anyone who thinks of an armed American as prey is in for a terrible shock.

Frank wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 9:53pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) I can see why you are friendless, cockwomble. Anyone would be a fool to count or rely on you for anything. Your motto is " a friend in need is a  - pest".

The only pest is you, Soren.  Piss off.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

No Brian - you piss off. Frank offers a lot for this Forum.
You offer only yawns, tsks and dearie dearies repetitively.
So go on. Piss off you intellectually lazy pleb soldier retard.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 9:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2024 at 9:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

you'd have to be a huge trump fan then bwian

he's the first president to tell americans to get the hell out of foreign wars and treaties and tell allies to stop leaning on the US.

biden with his wars in the ukraine and the middle east must be a disappointment

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4^th, 2024 at 7:06am:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain.

Yes, but has this been in Australia's best interests?  Australia is an independent state, not the 51st state of the USA.  We have become involved in numerous conflicts that really do not concern us (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) at the urging of Washington.  Kiwi land has resisted that as much as possible.  We should follow suit.  We are far enough away and a large enough population to defend ourselves, alone.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4^th, 2024 at 12:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 7:06am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain. Yes, but has this been in Australia's best interests?  Australia is an independent state, not the 51st state of the USA.  We have become involved in numerous conflicts that really do not concern us (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) at the urging of Washington.  Kiwi land has resisted that as much as possible.  We should follow suit.  We are far enough away and a large enough population to defend ourselves, alone.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

All true, but you only have to read the subject titles of threads in this forum to see the Australian obsession with all things American that do not concern us - to the degree that a foreigner might wonder if Australians see themselves as quasi-Americans,

aquascoot wrote on Feb 4^th, 2024 at 7:34am:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) you'd have to be a huge trump fan then bwian he's the first president to tell americans to get the hell out of foreign wars and treaties and tell allies to stop leaning on the US. biden with his wars in the ukraine and the middle east must be a disappointment

Ouch!! says Bbwian. tsk, tsk.
Trump's policies are identical to Bbwians - Western self-reliance, not hiding in Uncle Sam's shadow.
Gweggy won't be pleased about Bbwian 'worshipping Trump. Double tsk tsk with eyerolls.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4^th, 2024 at 12:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 12:02pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 7:06am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain. Yes, but has this been in Australia's best interests?  Australia is an independent state, not the 51st state of the USA.  We have become involved in numerous conflicts that really do not concern us (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) at the urging of Washington.  Kiwi land has resisted that as much as possible.  We should follow suit.  We are far enough away and a large enough population to defend ourselves, alone.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) All true, but you only have to read the subject titles of threads in this forum to see the Australian obsession with all things American that do not concern us - to the degree that a foreigner might wonder if Australians see themselves as quasi-Americans,

A fair point.  I see myself as Australian, not American.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

While Governor-Generals serve the UK here.
Prime Ministers (both Parties) serve the USA here.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4^th, 2024 at 1:17pm:

I see myself as Australian, not American.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

If this forum represents mainstream Australian society, I'd say having a sense of being Australian is a dying perception.

Australianism has become the poor cousin of imagined Americanism.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 5^th, 2024 at 7:09am:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 1:17pm: I see myself as Australian, not American.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::) If this forum represents mainstream Australian society, I'd say having a sense of being Australian is a dying perception. Australianism has become the poor cousin of imagined Americanism.

Poor fools my countrymen then.  Australianism is making a comeback on the ABC and SBS Tv networks and radio ones as well.  Americanism has many problems, be it as far as guns and the US Constitution is concerned.  The number of times Gun Nuts have attempted to invoke the 2nd in Australia is vast.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Kangaroo Rooter culture looks a lot like Alabama

https://youtu.be/45JP45Z4lyQ

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4^th, 2024 at 12:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 7:06am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain. Yes, but has this been in Australia's best interests?  Australia is an independent state, not the 51st state of the USA.  We have become involved in numerous conflicts that really do not concern us (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) at the urging of Washington.  Kiwi land has resisted that as much as possible.  We should follow suit.  We are far enough away and a large enough population to defend ourselves, alone.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Small correction, Korea was at the request of the UN, just as it was for Britain, India, New Zealand, Turkey and so on.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 5^th, 2024 at 11:37am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 5th, 2024 at 7:09am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 1:17pm: I see myself as Australian, not American.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::) If this forum represents mainstream Australian society, I'd say having a sense of being Australian is a dying perception. Australianism has become the poor cousin of imagined Americanism. Poor fools my countrymen then.  ....  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Is there ANYBODY you don't feel eternally superior to, cockwomble - other than Muslims?


There are very few people, if any, who have even less cause to feel superior and condescending to anyone. You are not superior, Bbwian, merely supercilious. You are so low as to have no room to condescend any further.

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 9:13am:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 12:02pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 7:06am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain. Yes, but has this been in Australia's best interests?  Australia is an independent state, not the 51st state of the USA.  We have become involved in numerous conflicts that really do not concern us (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) at the urging of Washington.  Kiwi land has resisted that as much as possible.  We should follow suit.  We are far enough away and a large enough population to defend ourselves, alone.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Small correction, Korea was at the request of the UN, just as it was for Britain, India, New Zealand, Turkey and so on.

It might have been a request from the UN but it was not the reason why Canberra went.  It was angling for a security guarantee from the US and saw this as an opportunity to earn one. Poor fools, all they got was the A**US Pact, which is not a security guarantee.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Nobody is looking for a blanket security guarantee.
After 1914, when Germany and Russia gave blanket security guarantees to their proxies in the Balkans, a blanket guarantee is recognised as a recipe for things getting out of hand very quickly.

A security guarantee from the US is exactly what Australia has been chasing since WW2.

Peter Zeihan explains it well...

"Australia is arguably the staunchest ally America has."

"[The Australians] know, at the end of the day, if they don't have a partnership with the Americans, then they are on their own. They can read a map and they realise they're wildly outnumbered in the region, so it's a strategy [a security guarantee] they've been following for decades, a strategy that has borne a lot of fruit and it is a strategy that will continue to serve them well into the future."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eejRr-oP6hw

American "culture" ......:

"Former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley has put in a formal request for Secret Service protection, and says she has experienced threats amid her primary battle against Donald Trump.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/nikki-haley-applies-for-secret-service-protection-after-a-surge-in-threats-as-the-final-rival-to-donald-trump-in-the-republican-race/ar-BB1hPijo?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=ENTPSP&cvid=68c22abab0e34d99a4539feb83b2dfb2&ei=8

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 11:35am:

Nobody is looking for a blanket security guarantee. After 1914, when Germany and Russia gave blanket security guarantees to their proxies in the Balkans, a blanket guarantee is recognised as a recipe for things getting out of hand very quickly.

That would explain the NATO treaty which is a security guarantee, right, Soren?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 1:43pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 11:35am: Nobody is looking for a blanket security guarantee. After 1914, when Germany and Russia gave blanket security guarantees to their proxies in the Balkans, a blanket guarantee is recognised as a recipe for things getting out of hand very quickly. That would explain the NATO treaty which is a security guarantee, right, Soren?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Neither ANZUS nor AUKUS no any other treaty involving AUstralia has a security guarantee.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 11:05am:

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 9:13am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 12:02pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 4th, 2024 at 7:06am: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 9:21pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:57pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2024 at 8:22pm: ANZUS definitely locked us and the Kiwis into a US Imperial State, why else did we ask when we could down whever Washington asked us to jump?  We ended up in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq at the whim of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Both Australia and NZ are not locked in to any materiel support for the US. However, successive governments in Australia have never refused any US request for support. Funny that, it's almost if we do as we told by Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Since WW2, in the interests of national security and cultural sensibilities, it has always been perceived by successive Australian governments to align itself with, and staunchly support, US interests - not so much with NZ, which aligns itself culturally with Britain. Yes, but has this been in Australia's best interests?  Australia is an independent state, not the 51st state of the USA.  We have become involved in numerous conflicts that really do not concern us (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) at the urging of Washington.  Kiwi land has resisted that as much as possible.  We should follow suit.  We are far enough away and a large enough population to defend ourselves, alone.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Small correction, Korea was at the request of the UN, just as it was for Britain, India, New Zealand, Turkey and so on. It might have been a request from the UN but it was not the reason why Canberra went.  It was angling for a security guarantee from the US and saw this as an opportunity to earn one. Poor fools, all they got was the A**US Pact, which is not a security guarantee.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

It was a request from the UN, not “. . . it might have been . . .” just as India, the UK, etc. responded.

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 3:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 1:43pm: Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 11:35am: Nobody is looking for a blanket security guarantee. After 1914, when Germany and Russia gave blanket security guarantees to their proxies in the Balkans, a blanket guarantee is recognised as a recipe for things getting out of hand very quickly. That would explain the NATO treaty which is a security guarantee, right, Soren?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Neither ANZUS nor AUKUS no any other treaty involving AUstralia has a security guarantee.

That is not how successive Australian Governments have interpreted the agreements, Soren.   Seems you aren't listening to what the Government claims.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 3:35pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 11:05am: It might have been a request from the UN but it was not the reason why Canberra went.  It was angling for a security guarantee from the US and saw this as an opportunity to earn one. Poor fools, all they got was the A**US Pact, which is not a security guarantee.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) It was a request from the UN, not “. . . it might have been . . .” just as India, the UK, etc. responded.

Seems you didn't read the second part of my response, Eugene.  Governments rarely act simply on "a request,"  they usually have their own motives for doing things.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 1:13pm:

American "culture" ......: "Former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley has put in a formal request for Secret Service protection, and says she has experienced threats amid her primary battle against Donald Trump. https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/nikki-haley-applies-for-secret-service-protection-after-a-surge-in-threats-as-the-final-rival-to-donald-trump-in-the-republican-race/ar-BB1hPijo?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=ENTPSP&cvid=68c22abab0e34d99a4539feb83b2dfb2&ei=8

i entirely believe that

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 3:40pm:

That is not how successive Australian Governments have interpreted the agreements

And how successive generations of Australians have also interpreted ANZUS - as a security guarantee - given that that is exactly how Australian governments sold it to the people.

When NZ effectively pulled out of ANZUS over its nuclear-free policy, Australian governments of the day acted and spoke like NZ would be vulnerable to attack without any expectation of assistance, given they'd 'exited' a 'security guarantee'.

Something Joe Rogan mentioned on one of his podcasts rings true.

Having spoken to many Australians over the years, he commented, 'What is it about Australians that they think America will just take care of everything if sh!t hits the fan?'

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 3:40pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 3:13pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 1:43pm: Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 11:35am: Nobody is looking for a blanket security guarantee. After 1914, when Germany and Russia gave blanket security guarantees to their proxies in the Balkans, a blanket guarantee is recognised as a recipe for things getting out of hand very quickly. That would explain the NATO treaty which is a security guarantee, right, Soren?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Neither ANZUS nor AUKUS no any other treaty involving AUstralia has a security guarantee. That is not how successive Australian Governments have interpreted the agreements, Soren.   Seems you aren't listening to what the Government claims.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

You make up nonsense as you go, as usual, Bbwian.

There is no such thing as 'security guarantee'. There is only pledge of mutual assistance. Nobody is in a position to guarantee anything. NATO members can't and don't guarantee the security of members, only that they would rally around if any member is attacked.

ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers.

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 5:00pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 3:40pm: Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 3:13pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 1:43pm: Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 11:35am: Nobody is looking for a blanket security guarantee. After 1914, when Germany and Russia gave blanket security guarantees to their proxies in the Balkans, a blanket guarantee is recognised as a recipe for things getting out of hand very quickly. That would explain the NATO treaty which is a security guarantee, right, Soren?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) Neither ANZUS nor AUKUS no any other treaty involving AUstralia has a security guarantee. That is not how successive Australian Governments have interpreted the agreements, Soren.   Seems you aren't listening to what the Government claims.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::) You make up nonsense as you go, as usual, Bbwian. There is no such thing as 'security guarantee'. There is only pledge of mutual assistance. Nobody is in a position to guarantee anything. NATO members can't and don't guarantee the security of members, only that they would rally around if any member is attacked.

You do ignore reality, don't you, Soren.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 5:16pm:

ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers.

Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 5:58pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:16pm: ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers. Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Bollocks.

Incoherent ranty bollocks. Bbwianesque.

The Howard government was not committed. Instead, Howard correctly said that you can't be a Bbwianesque half-ally when 9/11 happened.

Anyone relying on you in a foxhole would be a suicidal idiot. So nobody here on anywhere trusts or relies on you, spineless squishy traitor of trust and alliance.

You are a betrayer by nature. Must not be trusted under any circumstances. You lie and undermine and betray.

Political cowboys, Back-shooters, Dry-gulchers, Rustlers, and Carpetbaggers.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 5:58pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:16pm: ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers. Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

I think you'll find that the Australian governments of the day were more than happy with the Americans in Vietnam and more than happy to be there with them - the 'red yellow hordes' were poised to overrun Australia any day... Apparently!

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 6:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:58pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:16pm: ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers. Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) I think you'll find that the Australian governments of the day were more than happy with the Americans in Vietnam and more than happy to be there with them - the 'red yellow hordes' were poised to overrun Australia any day... Apparently!

You are both talking newspapery.

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 7:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 6:55pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:58pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:16pm: ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers. Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) I think you'll find that the Australian governments of the day were more than happy with the Americans in Vietnam and more than happy to be there with them - the 'red yellow hordes' were poised to overrun Australia any day... Apparently! You are both talking newspapery.

Australians felt more than threatened by the 'Yellow Peril' in the 50s and 60s.

It was 'common knowledge' back then that the red, yellow Asian hordes were green with envy at what Australia had, and it was just a matter of time before they were swarming across our northern border.

It was the existential insecurity that was infused into the Australian psyche after Britain abandoned Australia to its fate during WW2 after the shock fall of Singapore.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 6:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:58pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:16pm: ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers. Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) I think you'll find that the Australian governments of the day were more than happy with the Americans in Vietnam and more than happy to be there with them - the 'red yellow hordes' were poised to overrun Australia any day... Apparently!

Australia was expressly worried about America's commitment to the South Pacific and particularly Australia's security after the 1960 West New Guinea dispute.  America had expressed that it's interests were in Europe, their refusal to aid Australia against Indonesia meant that Australia was out on a limb, which they didn't like.  So, they basically became involved in South Vietnam, claiming that the South Vietnam invited them, despite no one knowing who was the South Vietnamese government after the deposing of Diem.  "War for the Asking" by Michael Sexton has this all detailed and the lies the Australian Prime Minister told the Parliament over it.  Menzies was good liar.  A very good liar, almost as good as John Howard, when he claimed that a treaty that only pertained to the Pacific region meant he was at the beck and call of Washington.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6^th, 2024 at 7:49pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 7:36pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 6:55pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:58pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 6th, 2024 at 5:16pm: ANZUS binds Australia and the United States to consult on mutual threats, and, in accordance with respective constitutional processes, to act to meet common dangers. Basically, yes, you are correct.  However there is a lot of things that Australian Governments have created in their own minds and rhetoric about it's relationships to A??US and other Treaties such as SEATO.  Despite SEATO expressly refusing to accept Indochina as being important to the signatories of the treaty, SEATO was supposedly invoked by members of the Australian Government.  A??US was invoked several times by Canberra as a security guarantee.  Washington however refused to come to the party.  This led to Canberra thinking it had to pay a premium on it's A??US membership and we became involved in Vietnam, Iraq 1990 and 2003 and Afghanistan.  A??US does not commit either party but it committed Australia under the Howard Government to the US Wagon after 11 September 2001.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) I think you'll find that the Australian governments of the day were more than happy with the Americans in Vietnam and more than happy to be there with them - the 'red yellow hordes' were poised to overrun Australia any day... Apparently! You are both talking newspapery. Australians felt more than threatened by the 'Yellow Peril' in the 50s and 60s. It was 'common knowledge' back then that the red, yellow Asian hordes were green with envy at what Australia had, and it was just a matter of time before they were swarming across our northern border. It was the existential insecurity that was infused into the Australian psyche after Britain abandoned Australia to its fate during WW2 after the shock fall of Singapore.

Who remembers the DLP TV adverts which featured red arrows descending through Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia to Australia?  I do. Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

“Who remembers the DLP TV adverts which featured red arrows descending through Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia to Australia?  I do.”

I do, Brian, I also remember that the Vietnamese were our allies against the Japanese in WW 2, and how we helped to shaft them at the war’s end, giving the control of the country back to the French.

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 7^th, 2024 at 7:40am:

“Who remembers the DLP TV adverts which featured red arrows descending through Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia to Australia?  I do.” I do, Brian, I also remember that the Vietnamese were our allies against the Japanese in WW 2, and how we helped to shaft them at the war’s end, giving the control of the country back to the French.

Will, all we did was assent to the British view that Indochina was a French territory.  We were not involved there at all until 1964.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Feb 7^th, 2024 at 7:40am:

“Who remembers the DLP TV adverts which featured red arrows descending through Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia to Australia?  I do.” I do, Brian, I also remember that the Vietnamese were our allies against the Japanese in WW 2, and how we helped to shaft them at the war’s end, giving the control of the country back to the French.

The Yanks created the Viet Cong to fight the Japs.    ::)    -

just like they created Saddam Hussein to fight Iran
and the Taliban and Bin Laden to fight the Russians.


Every time it backfired in their faces.