This is not about interest or any other conventional definition. It is an attempt to figure out if TGD means anything at all by what he says, or if he is just some kind of mindless parrot.


freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 10:56am:

Quote: Oops...didn't agree for long: the price of the nation's currency is related to the nation's productivity. "related" is your way of saying you do not really know what you are talking about. The government can adjust the price of goods arbitrarily by controlling inflation. It could decide to replace the currency with an otherwise identical currency worth 100X more or 100X less. Apples could cost 10c each or $10,000,000 and it would have no effect on the economy.

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 1:55pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 10:56am: "related" is your way of saying you do not really know what you are talking about. Wrong: it is my refutation of your false proposition the price of money is "entirely arbitrary". Quote: The government can adjust the price of goods arbitrarily by controlling inflation. More accurately, the government can use price controls to control the price of goods; or more commonly  the govt. (via the central bank) can set interest rates to control inflation. In either case the price of money is NOT "arbitrary", it is related to the condition of the economy.  [quote]It could decide to replace the currency with an otherwise identical currency worth 100X more or 100X less. Apples could cost 10c each or $10,000,000 and it would have no effect on the economy.

Except if an apple cost $10 million, the economy would be f**ked; not necessarily true if the apple cost close to the unit of money. 


Quote:

And all of this has nothing to do with the point I am making, which you incorrectly think you are disproving. You are just too stupid to realise.

Careful ..did I mention 'mirror time'?
[/quote]


freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 2:49pm:

Quote: Except if an apple cost $10 million, the economy would be f**ked No it wouldn't, because the price is arbitrary. An apple probably will cost that much at some time long into the future, and not because the economy is struggling, but because it is doing so well. And the prices we pay today would seem equally incomprehensible to someone long enough in the past. When the Benz Patent-Motorwagon came out, it cost US$150 - an unaffordable luxury for all but the wealthiest. Which is entirely beside the point. If the person with the apple thinks your money has no value at all, it doesn't matter what price you offer, he is not going to exchange the apple for money. His belief literally makes your money worthless in that negotiation. This is true regardless of whether you care what he thinks. And yet somehow you come to the idiotic conclusion that whether everyone else believes the money has value is irrelevant.

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 4:43pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 4:42pm: freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 2:49pm: Quote: Except if an apple cost $10 million, the economy would be f**ked No it wouldn't, because the price is arbitrary. Wrong again;  in a functioning economy, the price of money must relate to the purchasing power of the average citizen's wage. Can you give the equation? Or is it just a whole lot of arm waving? And what do you even mean by the price of money?

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 5:02pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 4:43pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 4:42pm: freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 2:49pm: Quote: Except if an apple cost $10 million, the economy would be f**ked No it wouldn't, because the price is arbitrary. Wrong again;  in a functioning economy, the price of money must relate to the purchasing power of the average citizen's wage. Can you give the equation? Or is it just a whole lot of arm waving? You said it yourself: back in the day a Benz cost 150 Marks -  a big sum at that time when the average wage was 50 pfennigs (or whatever), but not beyond a rich man's financial capacity.  [quote]And what do you even mean by the price of money?

The same as you, ie the exchange value of money.


Quote:

And yet somehow you come to the idiotic conclusion that whether everyone else believes the money has value is irrelevant.

 

Your error there: you start out with "a person" who rejects your money; and turn it into "everyone" rejecting your money.

"Everyone" won't reject the nation's money, in a functioning economy.

Your "shared belief" fallacy debunked again.   


[/quote]

Can you give an equation for this relationship:


Quote:

price of money must relate to the purchasing power of the average citizen's wage

?


Quote:

The same as you, ie the exchange value of money.

Are you talking about foreign currency exchange rates? I specifically said that is not what I mean, and I am pretty sure you have no idea what you mean.


Quote:

Except if an apple cost $10 million, the economy would be f**ked; not necessarily true if the apple cost close to the unit of money.

Can you explain why?

Is there anyone in the world who really understands money?

If there is then how come the USA Govt is $34 trillion in debt?

How come Australia Fed Govt. is over $1 trillion in debt?

Why is inflation now a worldwide serious problem?

Do the people in charge really know what they're doing?

poll added

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:38am:

poll added

The poll doesn't have excitable boy so

I voted for "something else."

Inflation isn't affecting all nations. It seems to be just infecting Western and Western affiliated nations at the most.
Sounds more like a hole in the Western bucket.

I told you all many years ago there would be a Hyper-Inflation after the Pandemic Economic Lock-Down.

He's an advocate for Chinese communism, isn't he?

Whatever their system currently is, he is an advocate for. He reflexively defends everything about the CCP. Including starving 50 million Chinese to death by trying to feed them. Just a little hiccup on the way to shared prosperity.

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 1:15pm:

Whatever their system currently is, he is an advocate for. He reflexively defends everything about the CCP. Including starving 50 million Chinese to death by trying to feed them. Just a little hiccup on the way to shared prosperity.

He/she is not on the list of cultural Marxists -
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1660808671/1080

should he/she be added?

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 5:56pm:

This is not about interest or any other conventional definition. It is an attempt to figure out if TGD means anything at all by what he says, or if he is just some kind of mindless parrot.

Parrot. He doesn't undertsand his own slogans.



If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason.
...
Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out.
Chesterton



TGD understand nothing outside his slogans.
He doesn't understand anything inside his slogans either.

I am leaning towards bot or paid propagandist. The range of responses seems too narrow and uninteresting for a real person. At the very least, crazy people have some kind of emotional investment in what they are saying.

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 5:56pm:

TGD: ..... the exchange value of money. Are you talking about foreign currency exchange rates?

No.  I'm talking about "the person" who (you said) won't accept your money unless he shares your belief it has value.


Quote:

I specifically said that is not what I mean, and I am pretty sure you have no idea what you mean.

Low IQ? Read the above again.

So when you posted this:


Quote:

Wrong again;  in a functioning economy, the price of money must relate to the purchasing power of the average citizen's wage.

You were talking about someone being unwilling to exchange an apple for your money because they don't think your money is actually worth anything?

Frank wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 5:56pm: This is not about interest or any other conventional definition. It is an attempt to figure out if TGD means anything at all by what he says, or if he is just some kind of mindless parrot. Parrot. He doesn't undertsand his own sogans. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason. ... Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out. Chesterton TGD understand nothing outside his slogans. He doesn't understand anything inside his slogans either.

Already refuted on the foundations thread,  which you didn't have the nous to reply to. So you sneakily give it another shot here with an identical post....

fraud.. or coward... or dumbo.

Sad in any case...


Chesterton wasn't an economist;  and you haven't been able to find the error in Kelton's argument (in the MMT thread). 

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 2:49pm:

So when you posted this: "in a functioning economy, the price of money must relate to the purchasing power of the average citizen's wage.

Try replacing the words "must relate" with the words "automatically relates"....understand now?


Quote:

You were talking about someone being unwilling to exchange an apple for your money because they don't think your money is actually worth anything?

Oh dear: that's  what you are claiming.....poor FD has got himself all tied up in knots.

Quote:

Try replacing the words "must relate" with the words "automatically relates"....understand now?

No. Can you give the equation for the automatic relationship?

If a person refused to sell you an apple because they thought your money was worthless, would you tell them something like this:


Quote:

in a functioning economy, the price of money automatically relates to the purchasing power of the average citizen's wage

and expect them to come to their senses and sell you the apple?


Quote:

No.  I'm talking about "the person" who (you said) won't accept your money unless he shares your belief it has value.

So the "price of money" is the person who refuses to sell you the apple? Are you talking about the CCP shooting them in the back of the head? That is the price of having a functioning currency?

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 2:54pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 15th, 2024 at 1:25pm: freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 5:56pm: This is not about interest or any other conventional definition. It is an attempt to figure out if TGD means anything at all by what he says, or if he is just some kind of mindless parrot. Parrot. He doesn't undertsand his own sogans. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason. ... Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out. Chesterton TGD understand nothing outside his slogans. He doesn't understand anything inside his slogans either. Already refuted on the foundations thread,  which you didn't have the nous to reply to. So you sneakily give it another shot here with an identical post.... fraud.. or coward... or dumbo. Sad in any case... Chesterton wasn't an economist;  and you haven't been able to find the error in Kelton's argument (in the MMT thread).

Refuted above.

Price or cost?  If it's someone else's money it has no direct cost to you - see government..... though it may have costs in other areas, such as the functioning of economies....

A politician/elected body may feel that since the money to hand is essentially free - it can be disbursed at whim.... however - in doing so they very often forget or fail to see that the ultimate cost of misplacing money at hand falls on everyone - including them personally, through the simple process of that money not yielding up a worthwhile result.

Well may they say Abos take Mount Warning!  Because nothing will save the governments that sold it out...................

Apparently the LNP is over-running Labor in the polls in Queersland - meaning Queerslund is well on track to replacing one evil with another.... elitist Labor may well fall next time around in every state and at Commonwealth level, due to its woeful performance in over-riding the will of the people over voices in their heads and similar non-issues, such as their unshakable refusal to confront the transgender disease like Western Europe is, the persecution of police over righteous shootings of armed criminals who have already caused them injury with a weapon, immigration and such - in short - all the 'woke' nonsense.

But what will replace them?  The same old lost, elitist and self-serving LNP?

Poor Fellow - My Country!  (I started using that book title as a penetrating one liner many years ago now - now it is in use by mainstream political commentators).....

We need a new party of the people, by the people, and for the people, lest democracy perish from this earth ...

Frank wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 3:10pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15th, 2024 at 2:54pm: Frank wrote on Mar 15th, 2024 at 1:25pm: freediver wrote on Mar 14th, 2024 at 5:56pm: This is not about interest or any other conventional definition. It is an attempt to figure out if TGD means anything at all by what he says, or if he is just some kind of mindless parrot. Parrot. He doesn't undertsand his own sogans. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason. ... Take first the more obvious case of materialism (or MMT). As an explanation of the world, materialism (or MMT) has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman's argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out. Chesterton TGD understand nothing outside his slogans. He doesn't understand anything inside his slogans either. Already refuted on the foundations thread,  which you didn't have the nous to reply to. So you sneakily give it another shot here with an identical post.... fraud.. or coward... or dumbo. Sad in any case... Chesterton wasn't an economist;  and you haven't been able to find the error in Kelton's argument (in the MMT thread).  Refuted above.

haha - touche.....but in fact you didn't refute my argument, you just said I was mad, and then quoted some Chesteton on madness as if that proved your point.

Spot the difference?   

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 16^th, 2024 at 12:02am:

Price or cost?

We are talking about the price, meaning "value" of money, but FD is very confused.

Lets' see what you got: 


Quote:

If it's someone else's money it has no direct cost to you - see government..... though it may have costs in other areas, such as the functioning of economies....

My money doesn't cost you anything...now there's some insight...

As for functioning economies, they require efficient mobilzation of resources and labour; from which the
'value' of the ecomomy's money is derived, in a fiat system. 

Moreover a currency-issuing government doesn't need your money, it needs your labour (either directly in the public sector, or indirectly in the private sector). The mainstream 'government debt' narrative is BS; a currency-issuer doesn't need to borrow. 


Quote:

A politician/elected body may feel that since the money to hand is essentially free -

Unlike Chalmers who is "warning " us there will be no"freebies" in the upcoming budget because he has to "pay down debt" (all BS,  as noted above). 



Quote:

money not yielding up a worthwhile result.

Yes, investment in the right resources is vital.


Quote:

Well may they say Abos take Mount Warning!  Because nothing will save the governments that sold it out...................

Nothing to do with the price of money; nor the welfare dependency which is fuelling the cultural outrage of black activists spouting  their associated religious BS like "sacred" Mt Warning.


Quote:

Apparently the LNP is over-running Labor in the polls in Queersland - meaning Queerslund is well on track to replacing one evil with another.... elitist Labor may well fall next time around in every state and at Commonwealth level, due to its woeful performance in over-riding the will of the people over voices in their heads and similar non-issues, such as their unshakable refusal to confront the transgender disease like Western Europe is, the persecution of police over righteous shootings of armed criminals who have already caused them injury with a weapon, immigration and such - in short - all the 'woke' nonsense. But what will replace them?  The same old lost, elitist and self-serving LNP?

Probably.


Quote:

Poor Fellow - My Country!  (I started using that book title as a penetrating one liner many years ago now - now it is in use by mainstream political commentators).....

It's the mainstream economic commentators who are destroying the country today.


Quote:

We need a new party of the people, by the people, and for the people, lest democracy perish from this earth ...

Only an underdstanding of how money (which is created ex nihilo whether in private banks or the central bank)  works will save the people.

Ah - but my using your money willy-nilly has a social cost.... shall we count the ways?

Give a stone-thrower in Gaza access to an aid shipment and he will eat for a day... give him a job in the distribution network and he will live off the cream for life while supplying the 'revolution' and developing power of his own .... greed is good, no - and that's one person enriched to First World standards .....that, my son, is the secret of getting one's hands on the Treasury with all its luxuriant cash just lying around waiting upon your whim like the good servant to despotism and greed it has become since the heady days of determining one groat was worth five goats... and that is why arseholes of various kinds flock to politics..... easy money on the inside for life....

https://media1.tenor.com/m/e7VSjPwcSskAAAAC/ducktails-money.gif

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Mar 16^th, 2024 at 12:46pm:

Ah - but my using your money willy-nilly has a social cost.... shall we count the ways?

Wrong premise (again...).

You CAN'T use my money, unless I give it to you. 

Have you read my posts at all?