Australia has not been independent since  1975.

"Keating argued that by allowing the US to “displace our military” and surround the country with bases, Canberra is essentially giving up its right to determine its foreign and defense policy. Australia will “completely lose” its strategic autonomy as a result, he claimed."

https://www.rt.com/news/602379-australia-losing-autonomy-us-aukus/


Quote:

Australia being turned into ‘51st US state’ – ex-PM Canberra is losing its strategic autonomy due to its security pact with the US and UK, Paul Keating has argued Australia being turned into ‘51st US state’ – ex-PM The US is surrounding Australia with military bases under the AUKUS pact, which undermines the country’s sovereignty and makes it a legitimate target for China, former Prime Minister Paul Keating has said. In an interview with ABC on Thursday, Keating, who served as prime minister between 1991 and 1996, voiced strong skepticism about whether his country benefits from being a member of AUKUS – a landmark security partnership between Australia, UK, and the US, which was announced in 2021. The pact, which has been condemned by China, focuses on helping Australia acquire nuclear-powered submarines. Keating argued that by allowing the US to “displace our military” and surround the country with bases, Canberra is essentially giving up its right to determine its foreign and defense policy. Australia will “completely lose” its strategic autonomy as a result, he claimed. “So AUKUS is really about, in American terms, the military control of Australia,” Keating said, adding that the government of Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is “likely to turn Australia into the 51st state of the United States”. The former prime minister added that the expanded military presence makes the country a target from China’s point of view. “We’re now defending the fact that we’re in AUKUS… If we did not have an aggressive ally, like the United States, aggressive to others in the region, there would be nobody attacking Australia. We are better left alone,” Keating said. The US, he argued, is trying to “superintend” China, with tensions between the two being fueled by a power struggle over the self-ruled island of Taiwan, which Beijing views as part of its sovereign territory. However, Keating argued that the Taiwan situation “is not a vital Australian interest” while China “has no strategic design” on Australia. The US attitude to Taiwan is comparable to China deciding that Tasmania needed help breaking away from Australia, he said. The former prime minister’s remarks come after Australian Defense Minister Richard Marles and Foreign Minister Penny Wong traveled to Washington for talks about the AUKUS pact, and to discuss a new agreement on the transfer of nuclear material to Canberra as part of its push to acquire domestic-built atomic submarines from the 2030s. China has warned that the AUKUS agreement raises nuclear proliferation risks, adding that it was conceived in the “Cold War mentality which will only motivate an arms race.” Russia has also sounded the alarm about the security situation in the Asia-Pacific, insisting that it “has no place for closed military and political alliances.”

I believe your comment has merit.
We do seem to be a puppet on American strings.
We could be engaging more closely with our Asian neighbours rather than America.

I don't believe China is the evil it's being portrayed as and Penny Wong has done much to heal our relationship with our biggest trading partner.

Australia has never been independent in terms that established European, Asian and US societies would use the term.

Australia's colonies for the first 112 years were actual dependencies of the UK.

The next 45 years saw the Commonwealth of Australia as a virtual/ de facto dependency of the UK.

Over the years post-WW2, Australia has flipped its UK overlord for the US.

The persistence of the British monarch as Australia's nominal head of state stands as a testament to Australian societal commitment to the status of vassalship to a perceived or proven unassailable Anglospheric nation.

Anglospheric nation?

Yes and no.

Our leaders obviously believe we are but we are far from that.
Look around your local shopping centre.
We have, for the majority, become a very successful diverse nation.

I suggest we cling to the British monarchy for no other reason than we don't trust any Australian politicians with complete power.

At the very least we need to stop fighting American wars on the other side the world.

The ADF should do as the name implies. Defend Australia.
I also suggest that the swing of influence from England to the USA was simply because they basically saved us during WW2.

Regardless, we are where we are and I personally would rather see us engage with our Asian neighbours in a positive way rather than having the USA building bases to prepare to convince them in a violent way.

Daves2017 wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 11:48am:

I suggest we cling to the British monarchy for no other reason than we don't trust any Australian politicians with complete power.

Under our system of government, the head of state has no executive power.

Are you arguing that distrusting ourselves is not an argument for, and an underlying cause of, the Anglo-Australian psyche's need for an overlord?

Given the HOS has no executive power, what is it that we mistrust in ourselves?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 12:00pm:

Daves2017 wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 11:48am: I suggest we cling to the British monarchy for no other reason than we don't trust any Australian politicians with complete power. Under our system of government, the head of state has no executive power. Are you arguing that distrusting ourselves is not an argument for, and an underlying cause of, the Anglo-Australian psyche's need for an overlord? Given the HOS has no executive power, what is it that we mistrust in ourselves?

I have absolutely no faith in the Australian government.

At least with the current corrupt or simply stupid politicians running it.

By keeping the status quo it reminds our politicians that they aren't truly in charge and can be removed from power by the king.

They hate that.

They despise that everyday they wake up and go to work for the monarchy.

I like it displeasure them so much.

I'm Petty like this  ;D

Daves2017 wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 12:12pm:

I have absolutely no faith in the Australian government. At least with the current corrupt or simply stupid politicians running it. By keeping the status quo it reminds our politicians that they aren't truly in charge and can be removed from power by the king. They hate that. They despise that everyday they wake up and go to work for the monarchy. I like it displeasure them so much. I'm Petty like this  ;D

The British monarch has no executive power to dismiss an Australian government.

The G-G has that nominal power but, as we have witnessed, it is intensely controversial and effectively undemocratic, leading inevitably to a constitutional crisis.

It has been argued that 'The Dismissal' was a US-led coup whereby the G-G's paranoid insecurity was played on, while Elizabeth II had her arm twisted by her British government to play along.

Still "The dismissal" occur.

So by precedent the law stands

And btw who really wants Barnaby Joyce elevated to president by a vote in the lower house?

None of them are worthy.

So it's a question of whose strings you lot would prefer to be pulled by?

Interesting.........

Daves2017 wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 1:30pm:

Still "The dismissal" occur. So by precedent the law stands

That would be a good argument to end the loophole greyzone of our governance - and assert our independence - by eliminating the possibility of a foreign head of state having their arm twisted by a foreign power to threaten our democracy.

The problem started in WW2.

Our soldiers were training with broomsticks as we didn't have enough rifles for them.
We couldn't fight the Japs like that.
Only the USA stepped in and helped us with shiploads of rifles and ammo
and everything else we needed.
Then the Yanks lost countless lives pushing the Japs back.

We can't defend ourselves without the Yanks and so we have to do what we're told.
they don't ask us - they tell us.

example -
buy these 8 nuke subs at 9 times the correct price - and we say yes.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 1:41pm:

buy these 8 nuke subs at 9 times the correct price - and we say yes.

Buying nuclear subs is not the same as buying a new car.

We need to have them operated and maintained with technology and knowledge we're likely not going to be given, due to lack of security clearance, for decades.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 2:08pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 1:41pm: buy these 8 nuke subs at 9 times the correct price - and we say yes. Buying nuclear subs is not the same as buying a new car. We need to have them operated and maintained with technology and knowledge we're likely not going to be given, due to lack of security clearance, for decades.

For electronics - we'll get black boxes that we'll have to change out when they go faulty.
We won't even know what's inside them.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 2:11pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 2:08pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 1:41pm: buy these 8 nuke subs at 9 times the correct price - and we say yes. Buying nuclear subs is not the same as buying a new car. We need to have them operated and maintained with technology and knowledge we're likely not going to be given, due to lack of security clearance, for decades. For electronics - we'll get black boxes that we'll have to change out when they go faulty. We won't even know what's inside them.

That'd be right.

I doubt the US trusts Australian politicians and senior officials with top security information.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 2:13pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 2:11pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 2:08pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 1:41pm: buy these 8 nuke subs at 9 times the correct price - and we say yes. Buying nuclear subs is not the same as buying a new car. We need to have them operated and maintained with technology and knowledge we're likely not going to be given, due to lack of security clearance, for decades. For electronics - we'll get black boxes that we'll have to change out when they go faulty. We won't even know what's inside them. That'd be right. I doubt the US trusts Australian politicians and senior officials with top security information.

That's how they do it in the military.
Only the factory has the knowledge and special test jigs to repair the black boxes.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 2:16pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 2:13pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 2:11pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 2:08pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 1:41pm: buy these 8 nuke subs at 9 times the correct price - and we say yes. Buying nuclear subs is not the same as buying a new car. We need to have them operated and maintained with technology and knowledge we're likely not going to be given, due to lack of security clearance, for decades. For electronics - we'll get black boxes that we'll have to change out when they go faulty. We won't even know what's inside them. That'd be right. I doubt the US trusts Australian politicians and senior officials with top security information. That's how they do it in the military. Only the factory has the knowledge and special test jigs to repair the black boxes.

The Defense Department has that knowledge and the manufacturers are kept on a short security leash.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 2:30pm:

The Defense Department has that knowledge and the manufacturers are kept on a short security leash.

The Defense Dept wouldn't have a clue of what was inside all the black boxes.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10^th, 2024 at 1:40pm:

That would be a good argument to end the loophole greyzone of our governance - and assert our independence - by eliminating the possibility of a foreign head of state having their arm twisted by a foreign power to threaten our democracy.

It's possible for the US president to twist the king of Australia to use his Reserve Powers. In a crisis, the monarch is still the absolute ruler and Camilla can grab his genitals to sack the PM and order the troops out for martial law.  But then an Oz President could do the same. Trump almost did.

chimera wrote on Aug 11^th, 2024 at 1:50pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 10th, 2024 at 1:40pm: That would be a good argument to end the loophole greyzone of our governance - and assert our independence - by eliminating the possibility of a foreign head of state having their arm twisted by a foreign power to threaten our democracy. It's possible for the US president to twist the king of Australia to use his Reserve Powers. In a crisis, the monarch is still the absolute ruler and Camilla can grab his genitals to sack the PM and order the troops out for martial law.  But then an Oz President could do the same. Trump almost did.

The government that has the most influence over the Australian government is the US administration of the day.

The government that has the most influence over the British monarch is the British government.

The government that has the most influence over the British government is the US administration of the day.

Complicating the process of historical accountability is that the meetings between the British monarch and his/her British prime minister are not only confidential, they are also not recorded for posterity, such that if the monarch or the PM asserts themselves over the other to influence an outcome, it will never be publicly known.

A PM being driven to the Tower of London would be a hint he didn't have a good day. The Reserve Power to dismiss a prime minister and government on the monarch's own authority was last done in Britain in 1834 by King William IV. The score in 1975 was Kerr 1: Whitlam 0. Or Trump 1: Albo 0.

Would we have those nukes for free if we turned septic?

What are other pros and cons?

Not worth entertaining.

Normally Oz follows the US like a dog but Kerr in 1975 was 45 years ahead of Trump. The two events together can combine in the future to a genuine coup. Who will get in first?