Don't agree on everything': leaders divided on nuclear

4 October 2024 Yahoo News

They might be friends but Peter Dutton and his Queensland state counterpart David Crisafulli are a long way off agreeing on nuclear power.

Mr Dutton has promised to build seven nuclear plants across Australia if the coalition wins next year's federal election.

Two of those proposed plants are in Queensland at existing power plants in Tarong and Callide.   :(

But Mr Crisafulli, who is on track to lead the Liberal National Party to power at the October 26 election, stands firmly against the proposal, refusing to change laws that ban nuclear power in Queensland.

"Friends can have differences of opinion," Mr Crisafulli told reporters in Brisbane on Friday.

David Crisafulli and Peter Dutton

Mr Dutton has previously vowed to override states who refuse to adopt the energy plan.   :(

"Commonwealth laws override state laws even to the level of the inconsistency. So support or opposition at a state level won't stop us rolling out our new energy system," he said at an LNP conference in June.

The pair stood side-by-side at a press conference on day five of the election campaign but remained at a stalemate on energy policy.

"You know my position ... and the fact that I've asked Peter to join me today shows that he's someone who wants to see me do well, and I want to see him do well," Mr Crisafulli said.

"It doesn't mean that we agree on everything.

"He supports the Broncos, I support the Cowboys, so you know that's the way any relationship works."

Mr Dutton agreed that "friends" - even political leaders in the same party - can have a point of difference.

"In the end, we want the same outcome - that is, cheaper electricity for families who are struggling," he said.

Neither leader would comment on what would happen if both were elected and remain at loggerheads.   :(

"Firstly, let's get David Crisafulli elected as premier," Mr Dutton said.

Polls are pointing to a change of state government on October 26, with the LNP leading 56 to 44 per cent on a two-party preferred basis.   :(

Mr Dutton has previously vowed to override states who refuse to adopt the energy plan.   :o   :(

IF the feds want to overturn the nuclear ban, there is nothing the states can do. Federal laws override state laws. ::)

Allows a bet both ways for libs voting. 

lee wrote on Oct 4^th, 2024 at 3:33pm:

IF the feds want to overturn the nuclear ban, there is nothing the states can do. Federal laws override state laws. ::)

Dutton would need to win the vote in both houses to overturn the States....He would also need to fight all the legal challenges that would flow from his policy if it is ever enacted....Whilst these challenges are overcome investment in renewables will tank....Who will invest in an asset that Dutton will need to shut down if his Nuclear fantasy is ever realized???

:-? :-? :-?


Quote:

Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-come-a-distant-second-to-politics-in-duttons-nuclear-plans

What nuclear power in the United States tells us about the Coalition's controversial energy policy :o

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 9:38am:

Quote: Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com...

So tell us why if renewables are so much cheaper, why places like Germany. UK, have more expensive electricity when they have so much renewables. Germany has enough renewables to power itself, on average. Of course averages cover a multitude of sins. Like when the wind and solar are BELOW average.

lee wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 11:33am:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 9:38am: Quote: Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com... So tell us why if renewables are so much cheaper, why places like Germany. UK, have more expensive electricity when they have so much renewables. Germany has enough renewables to power itself, on average. Of course averages cover a multitude of sins. Like when the wind and solar are BELOW average.

How is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses....Why bring up Germany which has a completly different energy structure from Australia and is shutting down it's remaining nuclear reactors....The Ukraine war and the price of gas has also made energy around the world more expensive....CSIRO Report Finds Renewables Cheaper Than Nuclear....Feel free to post any reports that claim nuclear is cheaper than renewables and the cause of Germany's power prices???

::) ::) ::)

https://renewcosolar.com.au/csiro-report-finds-renewables-cheaper-than-nuclear/#:~:text=A%20report%20by%20CSIRO%20finds,Peter%20Dutton%20criticised%20the%20report.

Nah... nah .... nah ..... the 'leaders' are divisive...... one slightly worse than the other...

Both these sites sit next to extensive coal mining operations.

They target existing coal power sites to leverage a benefit from pre existing power distribution infrastructure. The negative side is that coal power is typically built in conjunction to coal mines. whether they are in ground mines of open cut the surrounding ground structure is potentially compromised and problematic. 

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

lee wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 11:33am: philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 9:38am: Quote: Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com... So tell us why if renewables are so much cheaper, why places like Germany. UK, have more expensive electricity when they have so much renewables. Germany has enough renewables to power itself, on average. Of course averages cover a multitude of sins. Like when the wind and solar are BELOW average. How is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses....Why bring up Germany which has a completly different energy structure from Australia and is shutting down it's remaining nuclear reactors....The Ukraine war and the price of gas has also made energy around the world more expensive....CSIRO Report Finds Renewables Cheaper Than Nuclear....Feel free to post any reports that claim nuclear is cheaper than renewables and the cause of Germany's power prices??? ::) ::) ::) https://renewcosolar.com.au/csiro-report-finds-renewables-cheaper-than-nuclear/#:~:text=A%20report%20by%20CSIRO%20finds,Peter%20Dutton%20criticised%20the%20report.

The day will come when Nuclear is a viable safe option. It isn't today and it certainly will never be under Mr Potato head. His plan is unsafe his technology doesn't really exist his locations are compromised his budget is out by billions if not trillions of dollars.

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

How is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses....

Nothing to do with renewables.


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

Why bring up Germany which has a completly different energy structure from Australia and is shutting down it's remaining nuclear reactors..

Because of Green fears not anything else. But you didn't say why German electricity is so dear. ;)


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

The Ukraine war and the price of gas has also made energy around the world more expensive.

But NOT as expensive as Germany.


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

CSIRO Report Finds Renewables Cheaper Than Nuclear...

And they use a 4 hour battery. Wind and solar droughts can last weeks. ::)


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:15pm:

.Feel free to post any reports that claim nuclear is cheaper than renewables and the cause of Germany's power prices???

So the cause of Germany's electricity woes are NOT related to renewables but only gas? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Perhaps that explains German manufacturing closing. ::)

lee wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 1:24pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 12:15pm: How is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses.... Nothing to do with renewables.

Exactly....Nothing to do with renewables....So how is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses???

:-? :-? :-?

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 1:32pm:

Exactly....Nothing to do with renewables..

And still nothing to do with renewables, their costs, the cost of necessary ancillaries (batteries), New power line infrastructure capable of handling wildly changing outputs etc. ::)

And still nothing on why German electricity is so dear.

And then there is Milli-band, closing coal in the UK which can only lead to more imports, if available. ;)

lee wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 2:05pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 1:32pm: Exactly....Nothing to do with renewables.. And still nothing to do with renewables, their costs, the cost of necessary ancillaries (batteries), New power line infrastructure capable of handling wildly changing outputs etc. ::) And still nothing on why German electricity is so dear. And then there is Milli-band, closing coal in the UK which can only lead to more imports, if available.

The rising cost of gas is why Germany has higher electricity prices....Germany is closing it's nuclear power stations and has not built renewables quick enough....Owners of the coal power plants were Dutton wants his expensive not yet viable nuclear reactors built say the sites are not for sale making Dutton's thought bubble even more remote....So how is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses....You keep avoiding the question???

::) ::) ::)

https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leading-economy-is-falling-behind/

The Leaders are split like atoms in a nuclear reaction.

https://iili.io/dpKzHdl.png

Dnarever wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 12:44pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 12:15pm: lee wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 11:33am: philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 9:38am: Quote: Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com... So tell us why if renewables are so much cheaper, why places like Germany. UK, have more expensive electricity when they have so much renewables. Germany has enough renewables to power itself, on average. Of course averages cover a multitude of sins. Like when the wind and solar are BELOW average. How is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses....Why bring up Germany which has a completly different energy structure from Australia and is shutting down it's remaining nuclear reactors....The Ukraine war and the price of gas has also made energy around the world more expensive....CSIRO Report Finds Renewables Cheaper Than Nuclear....Feel free to post any reports that claim nuclear is cheaper than renewables and the cause of Germany's power prices??? ::) ::) ::) https://renewcosolar.com.au/csiro-report-finds-renewables-cheaper-than-nuclear/#:~:text=A%20report%20by%20CSIRO%20finds,Peter%20Dutton%20criticised%20the%20report. The day will come when Nuclear is a viable safe option. It isn't today and it certainly will never be under Mr Potato head. His plan is unsafe his technology doesn't really exist his locations are compromised his budget is out by billions if not trillions of dollars.

Nuclear power is extremely safe and has been for decades. Why do you persist with these lies when you know it isn’t true? There are hundreds of reactors online around the world 24/7 and incidents are exceedingly rare. Just admit you are biased against it as a power source based on false, fear mongering misinformation.

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 2:20pm:

The rising cost of gas is why Germany has higher electricity prices...

But not the reason why it has higher electricity prices than elsewhere. ::)


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 2:20pm:

Germany is closing it's nuclear power stations and has not built renewables quick enough.

The renewables have a notional electricity capacity above the average. How much overbuild should they have? ::)


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 2:20pm:

.Owners of the coal power plants were Dutton wants his expensive not yet viable nuclear reactors built say the sites are not for sale making Dutton's thought bubble even more remote...

So they can't be build elsewhere? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 2:20pm:

So how is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses...

Because I am debating the supposed benefits and cheapness of renewables. ;D ;D ;D ;D

So tell us the cheap battery costs. ;)

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 2:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 12:44pm: philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 12:15pm: lee wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 11:33am: philperth2010 wrote on Oct 7th, 2024 at 9:38am: Quote: Peter Dutton’s nuclear proposal disrupts investment in cheaper renewables. Is that the point? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/19/climate-needs-com... So tell us why if renewables are so much cheaper, why places like Germany. UK, have more expensive electricity when they have so much renewables. Germany has enough renewables to power itself, on average. Of course averages cover a multitude of sins. Like when the wind and solar are BELOW average. How is Dutton going to get Nuclear approved without control of both houses....Why bring up Germany which has a completly different energy structure from Australia and is shutting down it's remaining nuclear reactors....The Ukraine war and the price of gas has also made energy around the world more expensive....CSIRO Report Finds Renewables Cheaper Than Nuclear....Feel free to post any reports that claim nuclear is cheaper than renewables and the cause of Germany's power prices??? ::) ::) ::) https://renewcosolar.com.au/csiro-report-finds-renewables-cheaper-than-nuclear/#:~:text=A%20report%20by%20CSIRO%20finds,Peter%20Dutton%20criticised%20the%20report. The day will come when Nuclear is a viable safe option. It isn't today and it certainly will never be under Mr Potato head. His plan is unsafe his technology doesn't really exist his locations are compromised his budget is out by billions if not trillions of dollars. Nuclear power is extremely safe and has been for decades. Why do you persist with these lies when you know it isn’t true? There are hundreds of reactors online around the world 24/7 and incidents are exceedingly rare. Just admit you are biased against it as a power source based on false, fear mongering misinformation.

Quote:

Nuclear power is extremely safe

Fukushima was managed by the most consistent and reliable people on the planet. They are only just starting to make the area safe and the region will be uninhabitable for over a 100 years at least.

In Australia we have people with a Homer Simpson she'll be right attitude to everything, we have a nong wanting to build nuclear plants in potentially unstable coal mine areas in a recipe for disaster.

Day one everything will be fine by the 10 year period we hill have an under trained Homer Simpson with his hands on the buttons.

Even with open cut mining there can often be sheer fractures. Building Nuclear plants on suspect foundations seems a bad idea to me.

"Thus, this paper poses the simple question – what if Germany had spent their money on nuclear power and not followed their policy from 2002 through 2022 (20 years); would Germany have achieved more emission reductions and lower expenses? To answer this research question requires first an assessment of the results of the German policy covering the period of 2002 through 2022 to establish a baseline. Then, two choices occur that could have been dealt with independently given Germany’s long nuclear history and competence – (1) to keep existing NPPs running, and/or (2) to invest in new NPPs. As noted, Germany has opted out of both these choices and invested in VREs, which makes the case particularly interesting.

The relevance of the research is not only given by the difference in policy choices observed, but also that the German Federal Accounting Office (Bundesrechnungshof) writes about the German policy dubbed ‘Die Energiewende’ in German, and it concludes: ‘The Bundesrechnungshof warns that the energy transition in its current form [based on the Energiewende] poses a threat to the German economy and overburdens the financial capacity of electricity-consuming companies and households’ (Bundesrechnungshof Citation2021a). Thus, understanding these policy choices is vital for Germany but also for other countries considering various energy transition paths."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14786451.2024.2355642#d1e128

"The 137.5 TWh of electricity that Germany’s “renewable” facilities produced in the first half of 2023 is a pitiful percentage of their supposed theoretical capacity. A chart at Clean Energy Wire here gives Germany’s generation capacity of solar, plus onshore and offshore wind as 130.8 GW as of 2022. (In a country with only about 85 GW of peak usage!). Add the new 8 GW of capacity added in the first half of 2023, and you would have 138.8 GW of wind and solar capacity, or 602.9 TWh hours of capacity (138.8 x 24 x 181) for the 181 days in January to June 2023. That would mean that the wind and solar facilities combined produced at a rate of only 22.8% of capacity over that period."

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/08/30/congratulations-to-germany-on-achieving-more-than-50-of-its-electricity-production-from-renewables/

Wow 85 GW Peak, and 138GW of renewables. And it is not enough. ::)

Dnarever wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 6:57pm:

They are only just starting to make the area safe and the region will be uninhabitable for over a 100 years at least.

And yet they are inhabiting it.  ::)


Dnarever wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 6:57pm:

Building Nuclear plants on suspect foundations seems a bad idea to me.

Biut you haven't found any suspect foundations. In fact you have not looked. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Dnarever wrote on Oct 7^th, 2024 at 6:57pm:

In Australia we have people with a Homer Simpson she'll be right attitude to everything, we have a nong wanting to build nuclear plants in potentially unstable coal mine areas in a recipe for disaster.

That you think Australians, no, that you think anyone at all would be a Homer is rather insulting. Don't worry the Nong won't build them or run them or survey the sites.

Nuclear reactors and weapons are sailing on and under our oceans 24/7, 365 days a year. No meltdowns or nuclear explosions. Has been this way for decades with only a couple of accidents. Nuclear power is very safe.

I noticed the article is rather negative on SMRs but Google tells me the first went online in China in Dec 2021.