I, for one, thing it is patently ridiculous that we have a curfew between 11pm and 6am on Australia's busiest international airport - Sydney International Airport (also known as Kingsford Smith Airport by some). That our politicians have given in to NIMBY's who moved to the area knowing very well that the airport is there along with the noise is beyond disappointing. The airport has been there longer than anyone has been alive in Sydney. It's not like its a secret that the airport exists.

Look at Heathrow, LAX, Changi, Dubai, SFO, JFK and numerous other international airports around the world that operate 24/7 every single day of the year without a curfew. It's time for politicians to grow a pair and abolish the curfew to allow 24/7 operation of Sydney International Airport.

What do you think?

Poll added.

:-?Well… for starters I had no idea there was as a curfew in existence at Sydney airport.
But then again I don’t live in NSW, yet… just having comeback from overseas, with our plane coming back in Oz in the wee hours of morning… I can’t see what good a curfew is?
Sounds rather silly to have one in place.
Not even sure how it works out this curfew at a busy international airport  :-?

I just looked it up… it is ridiculous! And not just Sydney.
Amazing how Tullamarine not included in curfew.

Adelaide, Essendon, Gold Coast and Sydney airports have curfews between 11pm and 6am. While most aircraft operations are prohibited during this period, emergency aircraft, some small jets, propeller-driven aircraft and freight movements are allowed.

Was the curfew imposed because attempt to reduce noise above residential areas when most of people are trying to sleep?

tallowood wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 9:30am:

Was the curfew imposed because attempt to reduce noise above residential areas when most of people are trying to sleep?

The official line is that it is to lessen the impact of aircraft noise on residents. It's utterly ridiculous. The busiest airport in Australia is not being utilised to its fullest extent because of a bunch of NIMBY's who moved INTO the area near the airport complained about the noise of the aircraft taking off and landing. Even after the government spent millions on installing sound-proofing materials in affected homes, they still complained loud enough that politicians capitulated to their demands and kept the curfew.

One of the conditions of the curfew is that any aircraft who are permitted to take off or land during the curfew hours must do so over Botany Bay. I think perhaps the only exceptions are the NSW Ambulance Air Ambulance and other aeromedical flights and emergency landings. But that doesn't guarantee you can do it (over Botany Bay), because it depends on the wind because you can only take off and land INTO the wind - you can't take off or land with the wind behind you as it is too dangerous.

It's time for the curfew to be abolished, it really is.

I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_HBDGd_6Lw

SYDNEY AIRPORT: AIRCRAFT NOISE PROTEST

tallowood wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 10:18am:

I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections.

Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting!

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 10:49am:

Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting!

You should come over to my place and see what you think about aircraft noise.

Since the middle of August we've had probably close to 200 planes a day (except Sundays and the odd other day here and there) roaring over our roof between 7:30am and 5:30pm because of this:

Runway Works - Perth Airport

In the attached image, the main runway (03/21) where the maintenance is being done is marked in red and the shorter cross runway (06/24) is marked in green. North is at the top and I live in the area marked with the yellow circle which is about 4km from the southwest end of the cross runway.

It isn't so bad when the planes are landing if we have easterly winds but they're as noisy as h3ll when they take off with west/southwesterly winds (which we've had most of the time during the past few weeks).

Now, I'm sure most people would understand that these works have to be done but what a lot of people (especially the elderly) in my area are annoyed about is that the airport didn't even have the common courtesy to tell people what they were planning - like an ad or ads in the local paper or an ad in our regular Belmont Bulletin magazine.

As far as I know, the only 'advertising' the airport did was the above link (which you have to click through 3 or 4 links to find if you go to their main website) and on Facebook in the middle of August.

I'm sure all the oldies in our area are just glued to Facebook every day and follow Perth Airport.  ::)

Most oldies wouldn't even have Internet.

The good news is - when Perth Airport finally get around to building the new runway that they've been banging on about for a decade or two, the cross runway is going to be decommissioned.  :)

Latest estimate for the new runway completion - 2028. And I'm betting it won't be finished by the end of the decade seeing as they haven't even started it yet (it will be off the right hand side of the attached picture and parallel to the existing main runway).

New Runway - Perth Airport

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Carl D wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 11:12am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:49am: Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting! You should come over to my place and see what you think about aircraft noise. Since the middle of August we've had probably close to 200 planes a day (except Sundays and the odd other day here and there) roaring over our roof between 7:30am and 5:30pm because of this: Runway Works - Perth Airport In the attached image, the main runway (03/21) where the maintenance is being done is marked in red and the shorter cross runway (06/24) is marked in green. North is at the top and I live in the area marked with the yellow circle which is about 4km from the southwest end of the cross runway. It isn't so bad when the planes are landing if we have easterly winds but they're as noisy as h3ll when they take off with west/southwesterly winds (which we've had most of the time during the past few weeks). Now, I'm sure most people would understand that these works have to be done but what a lot of people (especially the elderly) in my area are annoyed about is that the airport didn't even have the common courtesy to tell people what they were planning - like an ad or ads in the local paper or an ad in our regular Belmont Bulletin magazine. As far as I know, the only 'advertising' the airport did was the above link (which you have to click through 3 or 4 links to find if you go to their main website) and on Facebook in the middle of August. I'm sure all the oldies in our area are just glued to Facebook every day and follow Perth Airport.  ::) Most oldies wouldn't even have Internet. The good news is - when Perth Airport finally get around to building the new runway that they've been banging on about for a decade or two, the cross runway is going to be decommissioned.  :) Latest estimate for the new runway completion - 2028. And I'm betting it won't be finished by the end of the decade seeing as they haven't even started it yet (it will be off the right hand side of the attached picture and parallel to the existing main runway. New Runway - Perth Airport

Who was there first - you or Perth Airport? 'Nuff said!  ::)

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 11:20am:

Who was there first - you or Perth Airport? 'Nuff said!  ::)

We were here before they 'upgraded' the shorter cross runway about 15 years ago and started using it more often.

Up until then (well, up until 3 or 4 years ago, actually) they hardly used it at all.

And even though we can hear the planes on the main north-south runway they are a lot, lot quieter from where we are (you can probably see that from the image in my previous post).

Now, if you really want to see people getting riled up about aircraft noise, you should see Brisbane after they opened their new runway in 2020.

'Our lives have been completely destroyed': How Brisbane's new runway has made life hell for many.

Glad I don't live anywhere near there.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 10:49am:

tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:18am: I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections. Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting!

I agree, Sydney is not livable, that's why I don't live there.
However a low flying aircraft makes inviting target for a muslim terrorist with MANPADS or kamikaze drone.

tallowood wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 11:34am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:49am: tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:18am: I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections. Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting! I agree, Sydney is not livable, that's why I don't live there. However a low flying aircraft makes inviting target for a muslim terrorist with MANPADS or kamikaze drone.

With that thinking, every single airport should be closed for good.

Speaking of airport curfews - there's been a push for a night curfew at Perth Airport for about the last 10 years but, as usual, the pollies and the airport come out with the tired old "but it'll affect tourism and the economy too much".

Same as what's happened in Brisbane since their new runway opened 4 years ago.

No concern for people who have their sleep disrupted 24/7/365 of course (I'm not one of them, fortunately).

In fact, if it wasn't for flights to and from Bali and the fly in, fly out workers in the mining industry I'm sure Perth Airport would be broke by now.

As Greg said in another thread a while back:

"Bogans and Hi Vis Vests - Welcome to Perth Airport".  ;D

Tourists? Nah... can't see too many of them coming here at this time of the year and going up to Kings Park hoping to see the beautiful view of the Swan River, City and surrounds and all they can see is smothering smoke as far as the eye can see from all the prescribed burns happening lately.  ::)

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 12:07pm:

tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 11:34am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:49am: tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:18am: I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections. Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting! I agree, Sydney is not livable, that's why I don't live there. However a low flying aircraft makes inviting target for a muslim terrorist with MANPADS or kamikaze drone. With that thinking, every single airport should be closed for good.

Don't agree on this. Security control zone along take off  passes should be enough, once an aircraft is up and at speed its vulnerability is reduced.

Now it makes sense why others in our tour group had so many different plane schedules (nsw and Qld) compared to us in Melbourne, 2 flights with one layover for about 2.5 hours. The others had 3 planes to get to Sydney to get in before or after curfew time.
I get it now.
I thought we were just lucky.
We flew into Tulla at midnight. Huge crowds from a few flights.
When we flew out it was 5 am
Imagine how congested it would be if tulla had a curfew!

But having said that, our train service has a curfew where no night trains run.

Many Australian airports like Sydney were built a long time ago in residential areas when planes were smaller and quieter. Melbourne was built in 1970 in a non residential area for this reason.

The proposed new sydney airport Western Sydney Airport is being built at Badgerys creek (2026) and will be a 24/7 operation. Its non residential location was selected to allow for this.

tallowood wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 12:33pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 12:07pm: tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 11:34am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:49am: tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:18am: I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections. Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting! I agree, Sydney is not livable, that's why I don't live there. However a low flying aircraft makes inviting target for a muslim terrorist with MANPADS or kamikaze drone. With that thinking, every single airport should be closed for good. Don't agree on this. Security control zone along take off  passes should be enough, once an aircraft is up and at speed its vulnerability is reduced.

What about landing?  What happens in these security control zones ?

The Sydney flight paths are north south east and west depending on prevailing winds.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 1:43pm:

Many Australian airports like Sydney were built a long time ago in residential areas when planes were smaller and quieter. Melbourne was built in 1970 in a non residential area for this reason. The proposed new sydney airport Western Sydney Airport is being built at Badgerys creek (2026) and will be a 24/7 operation. Its non residential location was selected to allow for this.

Wow a new airport. I didn’t know this was being done. So what happens to the old airport after?

Yeah - let 'em have a taste of it!

Badgery's Creek will soon be over-run by high rises under The Albo Plan, and the planes will be dodging buildings to get in....... 24/7 .... anyone dreaming of such a thing as wide open spaces in that basin is ...... dreaming... where the hell else are all those people going to go?   :-?

I Know!  I Know!!   The plan is to plant them along the rail corridor to Newcastle, flood that zone with people who will be stranded in the event of any problems - and then along the rail corridor to Cambra.... that's why the pressure was on from the state 'government' of NSW to clear the small landholder out of their little acreages of peace and solitude west of the highway near Morisset - that's the only flattish land on the maps between the hills and mountains, so the government banned such things as roadside stalls and stuff to force them to sell up.

That's today's 'governments' for you at state level.... petty dictators one way or the other and overdue for the scrapheaps of democracy - ALL of them including their public servant lackeys who feast off the corpse of once-great Australia... time to put a stop to it all!

Drain The Sewerage Ponds NOW!!

tallowood wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 12:33pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 12:07pm: tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 11:34am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:49am: tallowood wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 10:18am: I haven't been to Sydney for sometime now but last time when I was there in Mascot at bbq party the noise of low flying aircraft was a big problem indeed and it was an issue during local and state elections. Then don't live there. By the way, aircraft noise today is nothing compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's when jets were far louder than they are today, and also more polluting! I agree, Sydney is not livable, that's why I don't live there. However a low flying aircraft makes inviting target for a muslim terrorist with MANPADS or kamikaze drone. With that thinking, every single airport should be closed for good. Don't agree on this. Security control zone along take off  passes should be enough, once an aircraft is up and at speed its vulnerability is reduced.

Mad dogs, Mussos and Mad People live out that way... many of them Imports... just saying for the sake of reality... different strokes you know.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

The official line is that it is to lessen the impact of aircraft noise on residents. It's utterly ridiculous. The busiest airport in Australia is not being utilised to its fullest extent because of a bunch of NIMBY's who moved INTO the area near the airport complained about the noise of the aircraft taking off and landing. Even after the government spent millions on installing sound-proofing materials in affected homes, they still complained loud enough that politicians capitulated to their demands and kept the curfew. One of the conditions of the curfew is that any aircraft who are permitted to take off or land during the curfew hours must do so over Botany Bay. I think perhaps the only exceptions are the NSW Ambulance Air Ambulance and other aeromedical flights and emergency landings. But that doesn't guarantee you can do it (over Botany Bay), because it depends on the wind because you can only take off and land INTO the wind - you can't take off or land with the wind behind you as it is too dangerous. It's time for the curfew to be abolished, it really is.

Indeed.

And this is what many people in Brisbane are annoyed about.

During the planning and construction of Brisbane's second parallel runway residents in many suburbs near the airport were assured by Airservices Australia and Brisbane Airport Corporation that noise impacts would be minimal due to the use of the slightly amusingly named SODPROPS (Simultaneous Opposite Direction Parallel Runway Operations).

The idea behind this was that both runways would be used at the same time, one for takeoffs and the other for landings, with the majority of flights arriving and departing over Moreton Bay at the northeastern end of both runways.

But, because of the wind direction and speed most days only about 3 to 4 percent of flights in and out of Brisbane Airport used SODPROPS with the majority of flights spread out across suburbs close to the airport... many of which never had a noise issue before the new runway opened 4 years ago.

This is where they're up to so far with trying to juggle flights to cause the least disruption and noise (short of imposing flight caps and a curfew, of course).

Major rule change for Brisbane Airport after new 24-hour runway made life hell for 226 suburbs


Quote:

A new written direction for airport noise relief is set to kick in by the end of November this year. Transport Minister Catherine King announced a change in the use of simultaneous opposite direction parallel runway operations, known as SODPROPS.

Quote:

SODPROPS is a mode of operation which allows planes to take off and descend over water, avoiding flying over communities. Previously, SODPROPS could only be used during the evening and if strict flying and weather conditions allow, including visibility and rain. If those environmental factors don't align, air traffic control instead directs jets and planes on a variety of routes over city suburbs.

It is also interesting to note (as I mentioned at the start of this post) that the Aircraft Noise Ombudsman found that Airservices Australia and Brisbane Airport did not provide complete information to Brisbane communities about potential plane noise from the new runway.

Airservices Australia 'failed to engage effectively' with Brisbane residents over changed flight paths, ombudsman says


Quote:

The national Aircraft Noise Ombudsman has found Airservices Australia did not provide complete information to Brisbane communities about potential plane noise, ahead of changing Brisbane Airport flight paths last year.

Quote:

The ombudsman launched a multiple complaint review earlier this year after being inundated with 264 complaints about the number of low-flying planes being directed over inner-city and western suburbs including Bulimba, New Farm and Brookfield. The ombudsman's report, released on Tuesday, concluded that Airservices Australia "failed to engage effectively with the communities potentially affected by the new flight paths" which was "contrary to best practice for community engagement".

Just goes to show the lengths that airports, airlines (and governments) will go to with their 'economy first, people second' approach these days.

Sophia wrote on Oct 28^th, 2024 at 2:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 28th, 2024 at 1:43pm: Many Australian airports like Sydney were built a long time ago in residential areas when planes were smaller and quieter. Melbourne was built in 1970 in a non residential area for this reason. The proposed new sydney airport Western Sydney Airport is being built at Badgerys creek (2026) and will be a 24/7 operation. Its non residential location was selected to allow for this. Wow a new airport. I didn’t know this was being done. So what happens to the old airport after?

Sydney International Airport will remain in operation. NSW will have two (actually three once Newcastle Airport upgrades are done for a few international flights) international airports once the Western Sydney International Airport is opened. At first it will have only one runway, but will soon have a second runway laid down too.

Referring to my earlier post.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1730068989/9#9

Just for fun I've looked up the minutes of last month's Belmont City Council meeting.

Wish I could find this "relevant Federal Act" because I'd love to find out if it says something like "Advertising (once) on Facebook and on your website (buried 3 or 4 links in from the main page) is sufficient to comply with this Act".  ;D ;D

As to an apology? No chance whatsoever. Not from those money hungry a-holes anyway.

Oh... and it's now 8:25am here in Rivervale and we've already had at least 30 to 40 planes roaring over our roof since 7:30am.

I'm thinking back to about 10 years ago when the announcement was made about Perth Airport's new runway (which they haven't even started yet).

People in the areas near this new runway immediately started complaining with some saying they might have to put up with the noise of 19 planes a day.

19 planes a day???  ;D ;D ;D

We've been getting up to 200 a day between 7:30am and 5:30pm since mid August (except Sundays).

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