There are various interpretations of the term ‘deep state’ worldwide, but the common theme is that it refers to a covert group that operates independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will.

These covert groups can be components of the public service, military, security agencies, religious groups, business corporations, ethnic or political separatists, &etc.

Famously, Eisenhower warned of it in the US with his industrial-military complex speech. Kennedy went to ‘war’ with the CIA, which he claimed was operating beyond the authority of the president and Congress. Johnson blamed the Civil Rights movement for undermining support for the Vietnam War. With Nixon, it was the counter-culture movement and anti-administration forces aligned against him. Reagan claimed military personnel were responsible for the Iran-Contra affair.

Trump, regarding his first administration, amazingly, and almost accidentally, blamed himself for ‘hiring the wrong people’ thus creating deep state ‘cabals’ operating - up to and including cabinet-level! Hence his current obsession and paranoia over his senior picks. 

Whatever, no nation anywhere can claim to be free of a deep state – they are, primarily, covert (so their existence is often unconfirmed, unproven, merely presumed, or exist only in the mind of the head of state/government).

Ultimately, though—given that no government has ever ruled with a mandate of 100% of the people (in democratic countries, they govern usually with not much more than 50% approval and often less)—at least some organised resistance to the government’s will is likely and ineradicable.

Every country has a Deep State -
those unelected officials that actually run things - mostly in the Public Service.
Australia has that too.

Then you get a more direct Deep State where for instance the Prime Minister
can send our military people off to war without even a vote in parliament.
When did we get a vote about sending troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq
or all the other wars we've been involved in?

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:11am:

Every country has a Deep State - those unelected officials that actually run things - mostly in the Public Service. Australia has that too. Then you get a more direct Deep State where for instance the Prime Minister can send our military people off to war without even a vote in parliament. When did we get a vote about sending troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq or all the other wars we've been involved in?

Where the head of state/government operates within his/her constitutionally/legislatively defined parameters, they cannot be defined as a deep state operative... They literally act as/for the state.

https://m3.gab.com/media_attachments/33/3b/c8/333bc830d7b61b7ebe7877a2efc6a296.jpg

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:16am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:11am: Every country has a Deep State - those unelected officials that actually run things - mostly in the Public Service. Australia has that too. Then you get a more direct Deep State where for instance the Prime Minister can send our military people off to war without even a vote in parliament. When did we get a vote about sending troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq or all the other wars we've been involved in? Where the head of state/government operates within his/her constitutionally/legislatively defined parameters, they cannot be defined as a deep state operative... They literally act as/for the state.

But unless the need is so urgent that they can't wait one day for a vote
then there should be a vote.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:24am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:16am: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:11am: Every country has a Deep State - those unelected officials that actually run things - mostly in the Public Service. Australia has that too. Then you get a more direct Deep State where for instance the Prime Minister can send our military people off to war without even a vote in parliament. When did we get a vote about sending troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq or all the other wars we've been involved in? Where the head of state/government operates within his/her constitutionally/legislatively defined parameters, they cannot be defined as a deep state operative... They literally act as/for the state. But unless the need is so urgent that they can't wait one day for a vote then there should be a vote.

Then lobby for change to legislation/the constitution.

If the HOS/HOG acts legally they are not deep state operatives.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:23am:

[]https://m3.gab.com/media_attachments/33/3b/c8/333bc830d7b61b7ebe7877a2efc6a296.jpg[]

If the FBI weren't legit, would anyone be in a US Federal prison?

Or would everyone in Federal Prison be innocent by definition?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:29am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:24am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:16am: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:11am: Every country has a Deep State - those unelected officials that actually run things - mostly in the Public Service. Australia has that too. Then you get a more direct Deep State where for instance the Prime Minister can send our military people off to war without even a vote in parliament. When did we get a vote about sending troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq or all the other wars we've been involved in? Where the head of state/government operates within his/her constitutionally/legislatively defined parameters, they cannot be defined as a deep state operative... They literally act as/for the state. But unless the need is so urgent that they can't wait one day for a vote then there should be a vote. Then lobby for change to legislation/the constitution. If the HOS/HOG acts legally they are not deep state operatives.

Plenty of people have lobbied for it but both main parties like
the fact that their PM has absolute power of life and death without a vote -
so it won't change.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:32am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:23am: []https://m3.gab.com/media_attachments/33/3b/c8/333bc830d7b61b7ebe7877a2efc6a296.jpg[] If the FBA weren't legit, would anyone be in a US Federal prison? Or would everyone in Federal Prison be innocent by definition?

The FBI is one of the main actors in the Deep State of the USA.

Politics effects who is charged.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:35am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:29am: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:24am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:16am: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:11am: Every country has a Deep State - those unelected officials that actually run things - mostly in the Public Service. Australia has that too. Then you get a more direct Deep State where for instance the Prime Minister can send our military people off to war without even a vote in parliament. When did we get a vote about sending troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq or all the other wars we've been involved in? Where the head of state/government operates within his/her constitutionally/legislatively defined parameters, they cannot be defined as a deep state operative... They literally act as/for the state. But unless the need is so urgent that they can't wait one day for a vote then there should be a vote. Then lobby for change to legislation/the constitution. If the HOS/HOG acts legally they are not deep state operatives. Plenty of people have lobbied for it but both main parties like the fact that their PM has absolute power of life and death without a vote - so it won't change.

Then join the public service/military/intelligence agency and become a deep state operative to thwart or subvert the will of the state!

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:37am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:32am: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:23am: []https://m3.gab.com/media_attachments/33/3b/c8/333bc830d7b61b7ebe7877a2efc6a296.jpg[] If the FBA weren't legit, would anyone be in a US Federal prison? Or would everyone in Federal Prison be innocent by definition? The FBI is one of the main actors in the Deep State of the USA. Politics effects who is charged.

And you know this, because....?

Corruption is ineradicable - there will always be those who will break the law/ subvert the state for money or power.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:38am:

Then join the public service/military/intelligence agency and become a deep state operative to thwart or subvert the will of the state!

Yeah right - have you been smoking something?   :-[

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:41am:

[quote author=MeisterEckhart link=1733083325/9#9 date=1733085525] Then join the public service/military/intelligence agency and become a deep state operative to thwart or subvert the will of the state!

Yeah right - have you been smoking something?   :-[/quote]
We don't live in a perfect world nor are we governed by a perfect system.

There has never been a Utopian state - a word that literally translates to 'no place'.

Have your years alive not taught you that?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:44am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:41am: [quote author=MeisterEckhart link=1733083325/9#9 date=1733085525] Then join the public service/military/intelligence agency and become a deep state operative to thwart or subvert the will of the state! Yeah right - have you been smoking something?   :-[/quote] We don't live in a perfect world nor are we governed by a perfect system. There has never been a Utopian state - a word that literally translates to 'no place'. Have your years alive not taught you that?

I don't like arrogance from our politicians and their lust for power.

They forget that we're the boss - they are our servants.

Another 'Like Nixon' point.

Given Trump has admitted that it was his lack of experience as a politician - claiming he'd only been to Washington not much more than a dozen times in his life before becoming president - his, (like Nixon's), second administration will likely be crippled by paranoia over deep state operations.

How long will it be before Trump's Administration starts committing crimes to disrupt or dismantle imaginary deep-state operations when things go tits up for him?

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:56am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:44am: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 6:41am: [quote author=MeisterEckhart link=1733083325/9#9 date=1733085525] Then join the public service/military/intelligence agency and become a deep state operative to thwart or subvert the will of the state! Yeah right - have you been smoking something?   :-[/quote] We don't live in a perfect world nor are we governed by a perfect system. There has never been a Utopian state - a word that literally translates to 'no place'. Have your years alive not taught you that? I don't like arrogance from our politicians and their lust for power. They forget that we're the boss - they are our servants.

Oy vey!

Not only do deep state operations likely exist, they are often exploited by the state to 'get things done'.

Personnel within the CIA/ US military have often been 'outed' as acting as deep-state operatives when the president's arse needs covering - e.g. Nixon's claims of 'shadowy figures' over Watergate, Oliver North under Reagan, Steve Bannon under Trump...

This suspected cooperative relationship between the state and the deep state was defined in the movie 'Clear and Present Danger' as the 'Potomac two-step'.

One of the reasons, if not the primary reason, JFK brought LBJ along for the ride, over the protestations of his brother, RFK, his family and the Democrat establishment. who all saw Johnson as a Texas hick (with possible old Democrat instincts) was that Johnson was a skilled politician who had gained considerable experience and influence in the House and Senate and knew well how to manage any deep-state resistance to Kennedy.

JFK was right. Johnson proved to be a master controller of Southern politics and could stare down anyone who attempted to covertly subvert Kennedy's Administration and, ultimately, his own.

However, despite LBJ's generosity towards RFK by keeping him in his old JFK post, the latter never relented in looking for opportunities to undermine Johnson (to become a deep state operative, himself) where his own cause was better served by doing so.

It could be said that wherever there is a state, there is necessarily a covert antistate (AKA deep state), operational within it.

Quote:

The Deep State - Does it Exist?

No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives.

No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 6:02am:

There are various interpretations of the term ‘deep state’ worldwide, but the common theme is that it refers to a covert group that operates independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will. These covert groups can be components of the public service, military, security agencies, religious groups, business corporations, ethnic or political separatists, &etc. Famously, Eisenhower warned of it in the US with his industrial-military complex speech. Kennedy went to ‘war’ with the CIA, which he claimed was operating beyond the authority of the president and Congress. Johnson blamed the Civil Rights movement for undermining support for the Vietnam War. With Nixon, it was the counter-culture movement and anti-administration forces aligned against him. Reagan claimed military personnel were responsible for the Iran-Contra affair. Trump, regarding his first administration, amazingly, and almost accidentally, blamed himself for ‘hiring the wrong people’ thus creating deep state ‘cabals’ operating - up to and including cabinet-level! Hence his current obsession and paranoia over his senior picks.  Whatever, no nation anywhere can claim to be free of a deep state – they are, primarily, covert (so their existence is often unconfirmed, unproven, merely presumed, or exist only in the mind of the head of state/government). Ultimately, though—given that no government has ever ruled with a mandate of 100% of the people (in democratic countries, they govern usually with not much more than 50% approval and often less)—at least some organised resistance to the government’s will is likely and ineradicable.

An accurate summation of the problem of 'the deep state' which obviously exists, so long as wealthy elites in the IMF align with wealthy elites  in each nation.

Yesterday the IMF praised Miliei for plunging half the nation into poverty ...Milei isn't an 'elite' but he is following the dictates of the elites.

We won't have to wait long to see if Trump can eradicate
'the deep state".... 

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position.  We have had our own "Deep State" for decades.  They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service".  Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers.  Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances.   What fun!  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am:

Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D

Careful John: Bullock with her obsolete NAIRU dogma is part of the 'deep state'. 

We know Bullock is nothing more than a political appointee according to the dogma of the day re 'women first' and all that set of lies, and that her position is one of direct underling to both the government and the financial institutions (broader than banks) who operate in lockstep for profit, which many government ministers and employees gain from profiteering via the banks etc, and any massively government funded operation about to start up - principally in the 'social science' area, where such opportunities for 'social engineer's abound.

That isn't called any 'NAIRU' that you espouse - it's called corruption and Neo-Feudalism - and your 'solution' to that problem is only more and more Neo-Feudalism.

Time to kick the bloody lot under a bus and start with some real people.....

Aside:-  In comments re a Lividia Thorpe article last night, someone said that parliament benefited from 'real people' like she and Jackie Lambie - Lambie is far more measured and calm about her work and would flatly refuse to be grouped with Lividia ... and there are other 'Aboriginal' etc types who are far more balanced - Jacinta Price for example.  REAL PEOPLE does not really mean Housos or Imports with limited intellect and reasoning and a lot of Hitlerian madness about them... the type prepared to do anything to get on and stay on the gravy train... peasants in Armani ....

When elected, I shall attend the House in shorts in summer and T-shirt and trackies and flanno in winter.... to make a statement... and my office will be open Mon-Fri and sometimes in a crisis every day.  Get me a Snowies bashed Akubra....

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm:

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position.  We have had our own "Deep State" for decades.  They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service".  Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers.  Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances.   What fun!  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

::)

aquascoot wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:08pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 12:12pm: Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position.  We have had our own "Deep State" for decades.  They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service".  Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers.  Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances.   What fun!  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::) ::)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img641/9394/yawnr.gif

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:43am:

One of the reasons, if not the primary reason, JFK brought LBJ along for the ride, over the protestations of his brother, RFK, his family and the Democrat establishment. who all saw Johnson as a Texas hick (with possible old Democrat instincts) was that Johnson was a skilled politician who had gained considerable experience and influence in the House and Senate and knew well how to manage any deep-state resistance to Kennedy. JFK was right. Johnson proved to be a master controller of Southern politics and could stare down anyone who attempted to covertly subvert Kennedy's Administration and, ultimately, his own. However, despite LBJ's generosity towards RFK by keeping him in his old JFK post, the latter never relented in looking for opportunities to undermine Johnson (to become a deep state operative, himself) where his own cause was better served by doing so. It could be said that wherever there is a state, there is necessarily a covert antistate (AKA deep state), operational within it.

JFK?
1,800 secret files have still not been released after  61 years.

The rumor is that the Deep State killed JFK.

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:56am:

Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D

How could it not exist?

There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons.

Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won.

And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with.

The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 11:56am: Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D How could it not exist? There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons. Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won. And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with. The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable.

Trump will get rid of them -
it will be a purge - a night of the long knives.

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:12pm:

Aren't we lucky we don't live in America, where all posts can be voted on to put people in positions of power despite not having any qualifications for the position.  We have had our own "Deep State" for decades.  They used to be called "Mandarins of the Public Service".  Gough got rid of them and replaced them with contract labourers.  Now we have public service roundabouts when ever the Government chances.   What fun!  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Yes, that has been a tactic to diminish the deep state in democratic societies by making heads of departments and senior executives term-of-government employees.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:49pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:48pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 11:56am: Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D How could it not exist? There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons. Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won. And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with. The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable. Trump will get rid of them - it will be a purge - a night of the long knives.

There are almost 3 million Federal civilian public servants in the US government.

About as many again are non-civilians.

Nearly half will have voted for the Democrats.

The deep state is ineradicable.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:54pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:49pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:48pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 11:56am: Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D How could it not exist? There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons. Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won. And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with. The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable. Trump will get rid of them - it will be a purge - a night of the long knives. There are almost 3 million Federal civilian public servants in the US government. About as many again are non-civilians. Nearly half will have voted for the Democrats. The deep state is ineradicable.

That's OK - Trump will go after the heads of Depts.
just like Stalin purged most of his Generals and high ranking officers in 1939.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 12:43pm:

We know Bullock is nothing more than a political appointee according to the dogma of the day re 'women first' and all that set of lies,

Well - OK, for the sake of the argument.... (with apologies to mothra). 


Quote:

and that her position is one of direct underling to both the government and the financial institutions...

Didn't take long for your analysis to veer off course:

Unelected Bullock is a servant of the deep state  in the "independent" Reverse Bank, not the government;  and the elected government is also a servant; they are both ruled by the deep state's  financial elites.


Quote:

That isn't called any 'NAIRU' that you espouse - it's called corruption and Neo-Feudalism - and your 'solution' to that problem is only more and more Neo-Feudalism.

Your errors exposed above: the NAIRU is the elites' trick    to control inflation via a variable pool of unemployed workers.


Quote:

When elected, I shall attend the House in shorts in summer and T-shirt and trackies and flanno in winter.... to make a statement... and my office will be open Mon-Fri and sometimes in a crisis every day.  Get me a Snowies bashed Akubra....

 

But, sadly, you will be as ineffective as any politician operating in the current neoliberal 'small government' orthodoxy.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:57pm:

That's OK - Trump will go after the heads of Depts.

I'm sure he will. Every new administration in the US and Australia does it.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 2:09pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:57pm: That's OK - Trump will go after the heads of Depts. I'm sure he will. Every new administration in the US and Australia does it.

We can clean out our Deep State when potato head wins early next year -
the head of the ABC has gotta go.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img641/9394/yawnr.gif

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 2:19pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 2:09pm: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:57pm: That's OK - Trump will go after the heads of Depts. I'm sure he will. Every new administration in the US and Australia does it. We can clean out our Deep State when potato head wins early next year - the head of the ABC has gotta go.

Our public service needs a complete clean out -

all the cultural Marxists have gotta go -
it's over - their comfy jobs bossing us around are finished.
They can go to Centrelink  and stand in line with all the unemployed.

Potato head - get it done.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 4:16pm:

They can go to Centrelink  and stand in line with all the unemployed.

Careful, you might end up on the unemployment scrap-heap yourself, given the current policies of the deep state.

"There but for the grace of god..."


Quote:

Potato head - get it done.

You think he can raise Oz living standards, when the deep state has him (like Albo)  by the 'short and curlies'?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:48pm:

How could it not exist?

Easy. It doesn't exist.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 11:56am: Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D How could it not exist? There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons. Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won. And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with. The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable.

of course there are people in govt working against the govt.

And by the way, the term 'deep state' isn't just used to describe those working in govt, its also used to describe those organizations or donors attempting to influence govt ... but only by those who idiots who disagree with the influence the donor is trying to peddle.
Ask someone from the right if soros is deep state and they'll mostly argue that yes, for sure, he's always trying to influence govt with his donations. Ask the same idiots about murdoch or even Trump doing the same thing and they'd argue they are not deep state.

But by labeling them collectively as 'deep state', you imply that is some sort of secret club where members plot to destroy there govt. That does not exist. Self serving arseholes exist, they exist in every facet of life, not just government. I know a girl who works at Kmart and yet she tells me there stuff is junk. She's no more deep state then the disillusioned public servant. And no more deep state then you are for voting against a government.

John Smith wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 5:13pm:

But by labeling them collectively as 'deep state', you imply that is some sort of secret club where members plot to destroy there govt. That does not exist. Self serving arseholes exist, they exist in every facet of life, not just government.

'Deep state' is a direct translation from Turkish derin devlet, referring to covert military and civilian organisations created to preserve Ataturk's secular Turkey.

It has come to refer to covert groups that operate independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will - not, in the US or Australian context, to collapse the state or overthrow the government.

These covert groups can be components of the public service, military, security agencies, religious groups, business corporations, ethnic or political separatists, &etc.

Famously, Eisenhower warned of it in the US with his industrial-military complex speech. Kennedy went to ‘war’ with the CIA, which he claimed was operating beyond the authority of the president and Congress. Johnson blamed the Civil Rights movement for undermining support for the Vietnam War. With Nixon, it was the counter-culture movement and anti-administration forces aligned against him. Reagan claimed military personnel were responsible for the Iran-Contra affair.

Trump, regarding his first administration, amazingly, and almost accidentally, blamed himself for ‘hiring the wrong people’ thus creating deep state ‘cabals’ operating - up to and including, at cabinet level! Hence his current obsession and paranoia over his senior picks.

Whatever, no nation anywhere can claim to be free of a deep state – they are, primarily, covert (so their existence is often unconfirmed, unproven, merely presumed, or exist only in the mind of the head of state/government).

Ultimately, though—given that no government has ever ruled with a mandate of 100% of the people (in democratic countries, they govern usually with not much more than 50% approval and often less)—at least some organised resistance to the government’s will is likely and ineradicable.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 4:58pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 4:16pm: They can go to Centrelink  and stand in line with all the unemployed. Careful, you might end up on the unemployment scrap-heap yourself, given the current policies of the deep state. "There but for the grace of god..." Quote: Potato head - get it done. You think he can raise Oz living standards, when the deep state has him (like Albo)  by the 'short and curlies'?

Are you saying they can blackmail Dutton?

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img641/9394/yawnr.gif

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 5:39pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 5:13pm: But by labeling them collectively as 'deep state', you imply that is some sort of secret club where members plot to destroy there govt. That does not exist. Self serving arseholes exist, they exist in every facet of life, not just government. 'Deep state' is a direct translation from Turkish derin devlet, referring to covert military and civilian organisations created to preserve Ataturk's secular Turkey. It has come to refer to covert groups that operate independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will - not, in the US or Australian context, to collapse the state or overthrow the government. These covert groups can be components of the public service, military, security agencies, religious groups, business corporations, ethnic or political separatists, &etc.

:D :D :D :D

And you know this from? Wiki.

A deep state[1] is a type of government made up of potentially secret and unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. In popular usage, the term carries overwhelmingly negative connotations and is often associated with conspiracy theories.[2]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state


And Rogan is the conspiffraaffy thffeowwist.  Oh yeash.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 1:57pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:54pm: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:49pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:48pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 11:56am: Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D How could it not exist? There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons. Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won. And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with. The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable. Trump will get rid of them - it will be a purge - a night of the long knives. There are almost 3 million Federal civilian public servants in the US government. About as many again are non-civilians. Nearly half will have voted for the Democrats. The deep state is ineradicable. That's OK - Trump will go after the heads of Depts. just like Stalin purged most of his Generals and high ranking officers in 1939.

Trump is the Deep State. It thrived in his first term and will get another nice kick along.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:08pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:57pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:54pm: Bobby. wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:49pm: MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 1:48pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 11:56am: Quote: The Deep State - Does it Exist? No, it is merely a term used by the terminally stupid to allocate blame for all that is wrong in their lives. No personal responsibility from that lot :D :D How could it not exist? There are multitudes of people working within government organisations under any administration you can name who are deeply hostile to the government of the day. It could be for moral, psychological, religious, ideological, &etc reasons. Those people don't just go away, and it's an easy bet they don't 'put all their personal feelings aside' and work with the same vigour, energy and enthusiasm as they would have their side won. And, I'd bet some actively and covertly subvert the progress of policies they can't bring themselves to agree with. The 'deep state' not only exists, it is ineradicable. Trump will get rid of them - it will be a purge - a night of the long knives. There are almost 3 million Federal civilian public servants in the US government. About as many again are non-civilians. Nearly half will have voted for the Democrats. The deep state is ineradicable. That's OK - Trump will go after the heads of Depts. just like Stalin purged most of his Generals and high ranking officers in 1939. Trump is the Deep State. It thrived in his first term and will get another nice kick along.

Ain't your dementia a bitch!

Frank wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 10:37pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 5:39pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 5:13pm: But by labeling them collectively as 'deep state', you imply that is some sort of secret club where members plot to destroy there govt. That does not exist. Self serving arseholes exist, they exist in every facet of life, not just government. 'Deep state' is a direct translation from Turkish derin devlet, referring to covert military and civilian organisations created to preserve Ataturk's secular Turkey. It has come to refer to covert groups that operate independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will - not, in the US or Australian context, to collapse the state or overthrow the government. These covert groups can be components of the public service, military, security agencies, religious groups, business corporations, ethnic or political separatists, &etc. :D :D :D :D And you know this from? Wiki. A deep state[1] is a type of government made up of potentially secret and unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. In popular usage, the term carries overwhelmingly negative connotations and is often associated with conspiracy theories.[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state

Aww Agatha - Frank after dark.

If it's true, it could be written on a toilet wall and be true...

As you'd know every schoolboy knows.

Agatha? Renamed to?

Dnarever wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 11:08pm:

Trump is the Deep State. It thrived in his first term and will get another nice kick along.

Trump was the US head of state. Can he be HOS and aligned against himself?

The CIA are gays of the secret closet

While the use of the term 'deep state' is not used in Australia, usually instead informally referring to those hostile to a new administration as those 'not on board', a common strategy new administrations use is to make changes to the Federal/State's Machinery of Government (MOG) - to change the structure of the public service.

While the removal of departmental heads and senior executives can be effected immediately, MOG changes provide the opportunity to initiate departmental restructures to eliminate those at lower managerial ranks deemed 'not on board' with the new administration's policies.

Commonly this will ripple through the federal/state's public service for years, with one restructure following another.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2024 at 8:42pm:

While the removal of departmental heads and senior executives can be effected immediately, MOG changes provide the opportunity to initiate departmental restructures to eliminate those at lower managerial ranks deemed 'not on board' with the new administration's policies. Commonly this will ripple through the federal/state's public service for years, with one restructure following another.

Given Americans are permanently gripped by conspiracy mania, all American headlines referring to taking on the 'deep state' are hype for what every new administration in a democratic country calls a MOG change.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2024 at 9:50pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 3rd, 2024 at 8:42pm: While the removal of departmental heads and senior executives can be effected immediately, MOG changes provide the opportunity to initiate departmental restructures to eliminate those at lower managerial ranks deemed 'not on board' with the new administration's policies. Commonly this will ripple through the federal/state's public service for years, with one restructure following another. Given Americans are permanently gripped by conspiracy mania, all American headlines referring to taking on the 'deep state' are hype for what every new administration in a democratic country calls a MOG change.

And wait until the HR and organisational change contract companies are hired.

A contract company's big-dollar bonanza!

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2024 at 5:39pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 2nd, 2024 at 5:13pm: But by labeling them collectively as 'deep state', you imply that is some sort of secret club where members plot to destroy there govt. That does not exist. Self serving arseholes exist, they exist in every facet of life, not just government. 'Deep state' is a direct translation from Turkish derin devlet, referring to covert military and civilian organisations created to preserve Ataturk's secular Turkey. It has come to refer to covert groups that operate independently of a national government (democratic or not) to thwart or subvert that government’s will - not, in the US or Australian context, to collapse the state or overthrow the government.

and therein lies my problem with it. In most cases, there are no 'groups', there are just self serving arseholes.