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dammed and diverted - water policy (Read 15091 times)
macsporan
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dammed and diverted - water policy
Dec 18th, 2006 at 1:54pm
 
EDIT: split from this thread: Corruption Deciet and Lies

With respect I don't see how a nation of twenty million people needs seven fully fledged governments with overlapping juristictions.

What we do need is a national infrastructure policy, a national rail, road and air policy, an national company law and a national criminal code.

There have only been two national infrastructure projects in the whole history of this country: the Snowy Scheme and the Darwin railway.

This is pitiful given the fact that most of the rain falls in northern Australia and most of the people live in the south it is a matter of urgency that this water be dammed and diverted to where it is needed.

With seven squabbling, self-centred and jealous state governments thwarting the Commonwealth at every turn this is unlikely to be achieved.

The national government is the only one strong enough to stand up to the big corporations.

For instance one of the big WA miners extorted permission from the WA government to build thousands of miles of private railway-lines that does not connect to the national rail-grid and from which ordinary frieght and passenger services are forbidden.

To give another example a proposed Very Fast Train (speeds 150-220 kph) link between Sydney and Melbourne has been frustrated for years by intransignent state governments under the thumb of trucking and airline companies.

The States are a politicial anachronism and need to be abolished, or at very least have their powers severely curtailed.

Australia needs urgent infrastructure upgrading to cope with a future where growing shortage of oil and global warming will test us as never before.
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« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2006 at 11:58am by ozadmin »  

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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #1 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 2:33pm
 
What we do need is a national infrastructure policy, a national rail, road and air policy, an national company law and a national criminal code.

I agree that uniformity would help, and I would add libel law to that list. But that doesn't necessarily require federal control. Also, maintaining diversity and competition between states can be a good thing.

This is pitiful given the fact that most of the rain falls in northern Australia and most of the people live in the south it is a matter of urgency that this water be dammed and diverted to where it is needed.

That would be an expensive white elephant. It would be better to get people to live nearer to the water, or simply stop wasting it in the south. It would probably be more expensive, and use more energy (= greenhouse emissions) than desalination.

I also agree with you on corruption. Smaller governments are easier to buy off. But there is greater risk if we got rid of them because there would be far fewer people keeping an eye on the federal government.
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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 6:12pm
 
Dammed and diverted?
You're joking right?  You dont want nuclear power, and yet you would totally destroy areas of the north for the benefit of those in the south?  You want to exploit one resource (water) but would ignore another. 
Some of the stuff i have read on here ............. Grin
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macsporan
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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 7:06pm
 
Last time I looked building dams does not destroy areas. The amount of land they cover and the environmental damage they do is negligible.  In a continent so very short of water, and likely to get shorter as the years roll on, it would not be a white elephant but a very useful project.

With respect, it would be a lot more expensive by an order of magnitude to move millions of people to the north of the continent as well than it would be to dam few rivers and divert them southwards. Desalination plants require lotsof energy and that means coal and that means greenhouse.

The Fitzroy River in Western Australian near Broome for instance. During the wet season puts more water into the oceans than any other on earth save the Amazon. For the rest of the year it's dry--a perfect place for a dam.

Even if we want to move people north we will still have to build dams to supply the new agricultural areas, towns and cities we would have to create there.

As it is water could be pumped southwards to Perth, whose rainfall is becoming increasingly sparse and unreliable. Hydro power from the dams could power the pump-stations with plenty left over to feed into the national grid.

There are many other locatons in northern Australia that are similar. There are some that could put large quantities of water straight into the Murrray/Darling system at the cost of no more than a few billion dollars each. Once they are built they produce no greenhouse gasses at all and very little during construction. They can be used to produce Hydro-Electricity which is one of the cleanest, least greenhouse gas emitting forms of power generation ever devised.

Besides who would want to live up there in the tropics? Australia is uncomfortable enough even down south.

The sceptism this suggestion has encountered here just goes to show how unaccustomed Australians are to thinking in such terms; largely because in the past such plans have been frustrated by small-minded state governments.

The Australian States have had 150 years to produce coordinated and sensible laws on all manner of things but have wholly failed to do so.

To give a notorious example: they couldn't even be bothered building their railways on the same gauge.

It will need the Federal government to pass uniform national law codes, I'm afraid.
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« Last Edit: Dec 18th, 2006 at 11:33pm by macsporan »  

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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #4 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 1:02am
 
Doesnt destroy areas. Grin  You have no concept of what damm(n)ing a river does. Desalination doesnt have to mean coal either.

What it all adds up to is the fact that this continent cannot support the population that currently inhabits it.

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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #5 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 8:18am
 
Desalination does mean coal under the present regime where renewable sources of energy have not been developed and deployed.

Please enlighten me about how the creation of artificial lakes "destroys areas".  Huh

(Yes and I've heard all those overstated arguments about how the cold water kills everything and the rotting vegetation under the water causes greenhouse emissions and so forth, so you'd better have something substantial to say.)

The present Greenie revulsion towards damming rivers, perhaps stemming from the Franklin Dam affair in the 1980's, is dogmatic foolishness. They present dams as if they were leaky nuclear power-plants, whereas they are do almost no damage at all and are necessary for both cities and agriculture. They can also generate clean, green electricity.

The problem with the Franklin was that they were going to build it in the middle of a World Heritage area; a breathtakingly lovely and unique ecosystem.

I was in Tasmania at the time and opposed it and would do so again if they tried to do it today.

The harsh and desolate wastes of northern Australia possess none of these endearing characteristics. Even if a few square miles of it are submerged, who cares? There's plenty more where it came from.

The continent can support its present population if we are prepared to treat it properly, harvest water from where it falls and transfer it to where it is needed.

Otherwise not.
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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #6 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 9:12am
 
The amount of land they cover and the environmental damage they do is negligible.

The damage done is not proportional to the surface area covered. Rivers contain a lot of life. The greatest losses of biodiversity are occurring in freshwater ecosystems, largely as a result of sucking rivers dry.

Desalination plants require lotsof energy and that means coal and that means greenhouse.

Not as much as pumping water from the north to the south. Have you looked into the cost of these pipelines?

There are some that could put large quantities of water straight into the Murrray/Darling system at the cost of no more than a few billion dollars each.

A few billion. Is that all?

Once they are built they produce no greenhouse gasses at all and very little during construction.

Is this one of those schemes where they try to tilt the entire continent so the water flow from east to west?

They can be used to produce Hydro-Electricity which is one of the cleanest, least greenhouse gas emitting forms of power generation ever devised.

That would require a lot of tilt.
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Re: Corruption Deciet and Lies
Reply #7 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 10:58am
 
The Fitzroy River in Western Australian near Broome for instance. During the wet season puts more water into the oceans than any other on earth save the Amazon. For the rest of the year it's dry--a perfect place for a dam.

Where did you get this from? How much water does it put out?
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Reply #8 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 11:19am
 
The harsh and desolate wastes of northern Australia possess none of these endearing characteristics. Even if a few square miles of it are submerged, who cares? There's plenty more where it came from.

Nice launguage, paints a rough picture.  But have you ever been there?  What kind of idiot says that? Huh

I care for one.  Im sure you could probably find a 'few' more people who would want a wild part of our country to be protected from such damage.  The 'damage' would include a shift in the fauna of the area from its natural state.  Permanent water would change fish species, flora etc. Just because its not rainforest or coral reef doesnt mean the biodiversity it supports isnt important.  Regardless, nobody would do something that foolish. 

Pumping water from north to south?  Trust me you will be drinking your own sewage well before that. 

How about this: we move everyone from the centre out to the coast, then divert all the rivers inland so that we have a big lake.  Nobody would care would they?  Certainly would fix all those pesky native title claims.  We could bring in exotic fish species to populate the thing and the punters could fish to their hearts content.  We would probably have to turn the simpson desert into a carpark though.  On a brighter note, who would care, its the Simpson DESERT, its bloody hot, what it needs is that carpark and some nice airconditioned housing estates and maybe the new biggest shopping centre in the southern hemisphere.  Hell we could probably get our population to double if we did that. Roll Eyes
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Re: dammed and diverted - water policy
Reply #9 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 11:33am
 
NoComment, would you mind signing up for an account?
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« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2006 at 12:07pm by freediver »  

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Re: dammed and diverted - water policy
Reply #10 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 12:14pm
 
Another problem with dams etc is that less fresh water reaches the estuaries which harms downstream fisheries. The runoff from agriculture also causes harm. This harm extends offshore. A lot of the damage to the Great Barrier Reef is attributable to agricultural runoff. What we are doing is replacing a productive source of food that requires no effort (except the harvest) and replacing it with a food source that requires intensive effort, modification of the landscape and lots of poison.
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Bracks lashes Canberra over water funds
Reply #11 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 2:16pm
 
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Bracks-lashes-Canberra-over-water-funds/2006/12/19/1166290529583.html

Victorian Premier Steve Bracks has lashed out at the federal government for failing to come up with funding it promised for vital infrastructure projects.

Victoria is seeking a contribution from Canberra for a $268 million "goldfields superpipe" linking central Victorian towns with the Murray-Goulburn system.

The state government is putting $101 million into the project, local water authorities will put in $52 million, with the remainder, $115 million, expected to come from Canberra.
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Re: dammed and diverted - water policy
Reply #12 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 2:36pm
 
I think I heard Rudd today saying that if the ALP got in at the next election, he would ensure more Federal funds went into our infrastructure and water.  Hopefully though he won't alienate the environmental parties.

But this is something Howard should have done years ago - instead of stashing $40 billion into the Pollies super slush fund for foreign investment.

Australia needs investment by Australians - and our rivers desperately some major joint funding from the Coalition and the ALP if we're going to last longer than 5 years.
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Re: dammed and diverted - water policy
Reply #13 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 6:27pm
 
Quote:
The damage done is not proportional to the surface area covered. Rivers contain a lot of life. The greatest losses of biodiversity are occurring in freshwater ecosystems, largely as a result of sucking rivers dry.


Which is precisely why it would be a good idea to divert water from north Queensland down into the Murrray/Darling to increase maintain its biodiverity. It's dying now.

On a more general level the rivers that empty into the Arafura Sea and the Pacific Ocean and the Carpentaria are very short. There really isn't much there. The advantages of diversion to both humans and wildlife in the interior are enormous.

Dams obstruct water flow only while they are filling up. After that the flow returns to normal. Australian flora and fauna are well adapted to seasonal water shortage and should be able to cope very well.

Quote:
Not as much as pumping water from the north to the south. Have you looked into the cost of these pipelines?


I have not costed them, but I'm sure they'd be a small fraction of the cost of say road maintainance in Sydney and Melbourne, or for that matter national credit card debt, or our dysfunctional education system.

There would be no trouble borrowing the necessary funds from the Superannuation Funds. They are always looking for 'nuts and bolts' projects to invest in as they are a lot more secure than the stock market. The problem has never been shortage of money so much as shortage of imagination and the jealousy of small minded State governments.

Quote:
Nice launguage, paints a rough picture.  But have you ever been there?  What kind of idiot says that? Huh


It is a rough place one of the driest and most inhospitable on earth. I have seen plenty of desert and semi-desert Australian bush and its no Lothlorien, not even a Franklin river. And there's a lot of it. The amount of land affected will be miniscule and for the most part temporary.

Quote:
I care for one.  Im sure you could probably find a 'few' more people who would want a wild part of our country to be protected from such damage.  The 'damage' would include a shift in the fauna of the area from its natural state.  Permanent water would change fish species, flora etc. Just because its not rainforest or coral reef doesnt mean the biodiversity it supports isnt important.  Regardless, nobody would do something that foolish. 


The engineering projects broached here would not do extensive damage to any eco-system as a whole, and would open up new vistas for other richer eco-systems to develop. I have no objection to using nature and adapting it to our purposes, what I object to is abusing nature and laying the land waste.

Most of this has already been done by private enterprise. The environmental impact of all of the projects here mooted would be insignificant compared to dividing the land up into cattle properties and overstocking by a factor of between three and ten, as was the blithe and ignorant practice of past generations.

State-directed projects could have written into their charter that they would do everything in their power to preserve the environment. 

We need to keep a sense of proportion. The impact of a few dams is as nothing beside a coal powerplant, a steel mill or a chemical factory, yet we are willing to tolerated those in our midst, or at least not do without the benefits they bring.

And perhaps those who feel sorry for the wildlife (of whom I am definitely one) reflect on the carnage inflicted on them by our highway system every day of every year. Compared to this dams and pipelines are benign.

Quote:
How about this: we move everyone from the centre out to the coast, then divert all the rivers inland so that we have a big lake...   Hell we could probably get our population to double if we did that.


Your plan is most practicable and attractive. As and alternative we could use nuclear demolition charges to open up an inlet in Spencer's Gulf to let the sea in. Soon after we could use even stronger nuclear charges to knock a hole in the Owen-Stanley Range in PNG to give Australia greater access to the tropical monsoons.  That's the ticket.  Wink I'm glad your seeing things my way. Just kidding.

All ad hominem attacks and sarcasm aside Australia is a harsh and barren place and will need to be substantially modified if we are to thrive here in any numbers. We have already done this in a thoughtless, uncaring and destructive way. Lets continue in a thoughtful, caring and creative way.

None of the creatures in the Murray/Darling would object in the slightest to having more water in their river. None of the animals in WA would mind at all if water was piped to them from the Fitzroy. For one thing we would stop overusing the meagre amounts of water in the local rivers and allow them to flow even more freely.

I realize this is fairly heretical stuff but something along these lines will be necessary in the medium to long term future. Desal plants are very greenhouse-nasty and dump a lot of very, very salty water into the sea nearby to the detriment of the local marine creatures.

If you are prepared to accept that as the the price of living in Australia then I don't see what the problem is with collecting and diverting fresh water from the north to the south.

Unless we wish to pack our bags and return to Eurasia (and its a little late for that) we will have to do something substantial fairly soon.

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« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2006 at 6:39pm by macsporan »  

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at what cost?
Reply #14 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 6:39pm
 
MacSporan you really need to look into the cost of this. I guarantee you it would cost more and pollute more than other measures like recycling, reducing waste and even desalination. If a grand scheme like this did make sense our pollies would be drooling all over it.

Quote:
I have not costed them, but I'm sure they'd be a small fraction of the cost of say road maintainance in Sydney and Melbourne, or for that matter national credit card debt, or our dysfunctional education system.


I'm sure it costs less than going to the moon too. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Quote:
Which is precisely why it would be a good idea to divert water from north Queensland down into the Murrray/Darling to increase maintain its biodiverity. It's dying now.


That would just move the problem somewhere else. Plus it would introduce more feral species.

Quote:
After that the flow returns to normal.


No it doesn't. The whole point of a dam is to extract more water.

Quote:
It is a rough place one of the driest and most inhospitable on earth.


Yet this is where you want to take the water from? You do realise we have wet lush areas north of the deserts don't you?

Quote:
The engineering projects broached here would not do extensive damage to any eco-system as a whole, and would open up new vistas for other richer eco-systems to develop.


Richer by whose standards? We have never managed to make an ecosystem more diverse by interfering with it.

Quote:
The environmental impact of all of the projects here mooted would be insignificant compared to dividing the land up into cattle properties and overstocking by a factor of between three and ten, as was the blithe and ignorant practice of past generations. 


Even if true that doesn't make it a good idea. Ditto the next two paragraphs.
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