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GREEN TAX SHIFT (Read 151553 times)
freediver
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #105 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 6:42pm
 
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So, are living standards equivalent to OZ & the USA, possible for another 4 Billion people & reducing GHG's possible, the answer is firmly NO!


Given time, we could achieve that fairly easily, though not with beef.

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but because 200,000 years of human nature, says it just won't happen, because too many of us wanting it all for ourselves!!!


100 years of history should tell you how dramatically things can change.
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #106 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 6:45pm
 


Indeed, and the changes in next 100 will probably be mind-blowing...amongst other things...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #107 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 6:50pm
 


I, for one, wish I could confidently predict that my kids (and any grandkids) will live in free, peaceful and safe times - and not want for the basic necessities...
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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #108 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 7:34pm
 
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perceptions_now
but because 200,000 years of human nature, says it just won't happen, because too many of us wanting it all for ourselves!!!


Quote:
freediver
100 years of history should tell you how dramatically things can change.


Our technology may well have changed dramatically, but I was referring to "our "human nature" and there, we have hardly changed.

Greed, Envy, wanting what others have, not wanting others to have what we have, not trusting those that are different to us in some way, shape or form and a few of the other old niceties, all those human frailties really haven't moved that much!
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freediver
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #109 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 7:37pm
 
We've stopped having sex with our siblings and cousins.
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perceptions_now
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #110 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 7:52pm
 
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perceptions_now
So, are living standards equivalent to OZ & the USA, possible for another 4 Billion people & reducing GHG's possible, the answer is firmly NO!


Quote:
freediver
Given time, we could achieve that fairly easily, though not with beef.


My best guess, we have maybe 5-10 years (tops), to put a Global plan into action, to save essential global resources from permanent destruction, to stop Irreversible Climate tipping points converting into later catastrophe's and to put Global agriculture onto a sustainable path!

What do you think are the chances, of a Global agreement of Politicians, Economists, Business Leaders, Unionists & the Global Public, to impliment a "Manhattan sytle Project", to take the actions necessary?

Let me suggest an answer -
I HAVE MORE CHANCE OF WINNING LOTTO!

The reality is that, even we would find it difficult to come to an action plan & we do seem to AGREE on quite a few things!
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #111 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2010 at 7:37pm:
We've stopped having sex with our siblings and cousins.


Well, that's a good start!

Although, perhaps not entirely?
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #112 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:50pm
 
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My best guess


Fortunately we don't have ot rely on strangers guessing.
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perceptions_now
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #113 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 9:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:50pm:
Quote:
My best guess


Fortunately we don't have ot rely on strangers guessing.


As I said, there is very little chance on us agreeing, although we do actually have a number of areas, where we apparently do agree.

In terms of relying on strangers guessing, that is in fact exactly what we actually do!

There are any number of Politicians, Economists and all manner of planners, who we really DO NOT KNOW, nor do we KNOW THEIR MOTIVATIONS and yet, we cocnsistently rely on them KNOWING THE RIGHT THING TO DO AND "TRUSTING" THEM TO ACTUALLY DO THOSE RIGHT THINGS, CORRECTLY!

The old adage is correct, "we really are a weird mob"!
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #114 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 9:31pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:50pm:
Quote:
My best guess


Fortunately we don't have ot rely on strangers guessing.


Oh, and btw, in my opnion, we still only have 5-10 years to address & put into action Global plans and as can be seen by your comment, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #115 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 4:04pm
 
There was a very good interview of Michael Mann on 'Late Night Live' the other day.

He talked about a carbon tax in Alaska that everybody supported. The tax was on the carbon producers (Oil Companies) and some of that money was given back to the population in the form of a 'green cheque'.

It's innovative, but we need something like that before we're going to make progress.
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #116 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:01pm
 
Sounds like Labor's new tax.
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #117 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 9:17pm
 
The stupidity of the carbon tax is due to the fact that energy is not French lipstick - its a necessity. taxing it is typically shortsighted. If yiou want an alternatife to9 crbon based energy, make it more attractive. Punishing the old lady for turning on her heater in winter is stupid. Taxing, only taxing, as control is the Stalinist touch. To Greens all non-Greens are kulaks fit for the gulags (hey! that has a certain rap rhythm!)

But then most (or possibly not all) Greens ideas are stupid because their main interest in life is finding an outlet for their resentment. Don't trust people animated by resentment. They are buggered and will bugger you. Listening to any of the Greens senators I have the sense that these are damaged,. abused people who are working through personal issues and are using the public policy forum on the 'environment' to stage their fights with their personal demons. I have never seen or heard a Green person who wasn't shrill. These people are doing a great disservice to some good ideas by inserting themselves into the discussion.








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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #118 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 9:33pm
 
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The stupidity of the carbon tax is due to the fact that energy is not French lipstick - its a necessity.


How is it stupid Soren? You seem confused about whether it is a tax on energy or carbon. Also, no-one needs energy, at least not in the form usually associated with carbon emissions. What we need (or at least want) are the things that that energy can give us. There are many layers of separation between carbon emissions and those final end products, all of which represent an opportunity to reduce emissions with minimal impact on quality of life, and all of which are effectively targetted by a tax.

Quote:
taxing it is typically shortsighted. If yiou want an alternatife to9 crbon based energy, make it more attractive.


Actually, that is the short sighted approach, and the one that would harm the economy the most. We do not want alternative energy sources. What we want is to reduce emissions. There are lots of ways to do this. A carbon tax targets all the cheap ones, rather than the short sighted knee-jerk ones.

Quote:
Taxing, only taxing, as control is the Stalinist touch.


Taxing harnesses market forces. It is you who proposes the stalinits approach, with direct government interference in how we reduce emissions, and your suggestions would be about as effective from an economic perspective as Stalinism.

Quote:
But then most (or possibly not all) Greens ideas are stupid because their main interest in life is finding an outlet for their resentment.


This is not a Greens idea. It is from conservative economists. There has been a consensus among economists on the issue for a very long time. Which is impressive given economist's preference for disagreeing with each other.

Quote:
But then most (or possibly not all) Greens ideas are stupid because their main interest in life is finding an outlet for their resentment. Don't trust people animated by resentment. They are buggered and will bugger you. Listening to any of the Greens senators I have the sense that these are damaged,. abused people who are working through personal issues and are using the public policy forum on the 'environment' to stage their fights with their personal demons. I have never seen or heard a Green person who wasn't shrill. These people are doing a great disservice to some good ideas by inserting themselves into the discussion.


Argumentum ad hominem. Perhaps you would like to stick to the merits of the tax rather than the motives of who you see behind the scenes pulling the strings.
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Re: GREEN TAX SHIFT
Reply #119 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 8:39pm
 
I think that a carbon tax is essential to create a differential between energy sources associated with higher emissions and energy associated with zero emissions. If we can use that to make say solar and geothermal energy cheaper, then the increased usage will eventually bring the costs down.

Completely off topic, but I sit uncomfortably with the politics of the Australian Greens too.  As long as they don't actually gain government but have some influence (which is a possibility with a close election result) then we might see some influence in some things that matter.  I much prefer the German Greens, who support Nuclear Power, or the Canadian Green Party who have a good fiscal policy. Our Greens have too many miscreant socialists.
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