Wow, Never thought you'd be here arguing for whaling to be allowed freediver?

The issue as far as I am concerned is not about animal rights or whether or not a sustainable catch can be achieved, it is about commercial harvesting of a natural resource, it is by definition, unsustainable. I am a believer that all commercial harvesting (you can't call it 'fishing' I'm afraid) of the wild populations should be banned altogether. I am aware that there are some species that need to be controlled and as with roos and toads, sure keep the numbers balanced. But nobody can deny that commercial harvesting of fish is absolutely destroying the ocean ecosystem, it is not about animal rights, it is about a sustainable future.

I doubt that any harvesting of whales can be done sustainably, and unless we can farm them (not likely) they are a stupid food source to rely upon. I am a recreational fisho myself, and there is nothing that gets to me more than watching the trawlers head out to sea. One of my hobbies is more or less a waste of time thanks to commercial fishing, I have no faith in the idea that any commercial fishing can be sustainable. We have moved away from harvesting wild resources for almost all other food stocks, having learned many centuries ago that we need to use farming to sustain our large populations. Fishing is no different, neither is forestry.

You cannot have a sustainable catch in a non-sustainable industry! No matter how you try to regulate it, you allow a limited catch and you open the flood gates, the issue gets politicised and suddenly data comes out left and right saying this many whales is sustainable from one group, not sustainable from another. Killing and eating whales is like killing and eating wild elephants, a poor choice of food as it is such a large animal that requires vast quantities of energy to grow and decades to mature.

Same for the crocs, let them live. If they get someone well thats tough luck and nature taking its course. We never have lived without the threat of nasty nature getting us, nor will we ever in the future if we are to become a sustainable society.

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 9:59am:

You are correct, saying that all harvesting is unsustainable is wrong, but I believe in this particular case it is not very likely with our less than adequate understanding of ocean ecosystems.

Finding a definition for what is a 'sustainable' harvest is one problem, knowing how much taken away will effect the ecosystem is another. Our understanding of nature is so feeble and we are repeatedly shown to have done damage where we thought we had learned and found a better way to do things.

Sustainability means taking only at a rate that allows natural stocks to continue to grow. How do you account for all factors when harvesting species such as whales? With such a large animal as the whale, how do we account for all the effects they have on the total ecosystem? How do we know how many calves will grow to become mature whales? How do we allow enough time for young to mature? When have we ever been able to harvest from the sea at a sustainable rate, especially species that are so low in numbers? All of this despite billions of dollars and untold hours of painstaking research... we still do not understand well enough.

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 9:59am:

Yes, it is not perfect but it is important that we have some areas left undisturbed by human activity and farming at least allows this. It is also a more controlled scenario in which it is easier to rectify our stupid habits when we become aware of them. A sustainable future means we will need a combination of more intensive controlled regions of agriculture, balanced by free wild regions - we have never been able to control the complexity and randomness of nature, I doubt we ever will.

History has shown that where we harvest from nature for food, we degrade the ecosystem, farming has proven a rather successful long term solution to this. A lot of the degradation due to farming has actually come about in very recent history due to the use of chemical fertilisers, machinery, monoculture and such. I agree that destruction of forest to clear land has been terrible for the environment, but this can be balanced out, there are many highly sustainable farming methods out there they are just not put into practice (this is changing though).

Fish farming is more difficult and has caused lots of damage to the environment, but fish farming is in its infancy compared to agriculture, I believe we will gain more insights the more we do it.

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 9:59am:

You are absolutely correct. But as a fisho I think you must agree with me that commercial fishing has done untold damage to the ocean ecosystems over the last hundred years or so? Why would whaling be any different?

Technically, hard to say how it can be controlled, but the current methods seem to at least do something? Something needs to be done about commercial fishing, we can't just sit here and say it cannot be stopped until the ocean floors are swept clean now can we? Or can we?

Finding a definition for what is a 'sustainable' harvest is one problem, knowing how much taken away will effect the ecosystem is another.

Aren't they the same problem, or at least one a subset of the other?

How do you account for all factors when harvesting species such as whales?

The same way you do for other wild stocks.

When have we ever been able to harvest from the sea at a sustainable rate, especially species that are so low in numbers?

For the majority of recorded history (and beyond) whales have been harvested sustainably.

All of this despite billions of dollars and untold hours of painstaking research... we still do not understand well enough.

Actually, the IWC was initially formed by whaling bodies to ensure sustainability. It was the whalers originally who got the harvest stopped. You don't have to know everything. You just have to apply the precautionary principle.

Yes, it is not perfect but it is important that we have some areas left undisturbed by human activity and farming at least allows this.

If we stop the harvest of wild stocks, we will have to put more pressure on other sources of food. The harvest of wild stocks causes far less damage per unit of food produced than other techniques, provided it is done sustainably. It would be a net change for the worse.

It is also a more controlled scenario in which it is easier to rectify our stupid habits when we become aware of them.

Completely destroying an ecosystem is always going to be more stupid than sustainably harvesting from a more natural ecosystem. The choice between farming and harvesting wild stocks is a choice between completely changing the landscape for food production and making almost no changes.

History has shown that where we harvest from nature for food, we degrade the ecosystem, farming has proven a rather successful long term solution to this.

Destroying the ecosystem is somehow better than slightly degrading it? Do you realise you cannot farm the ocean in a way that does less damage than harvesting wild stocks?

But as a fisho I think you must agree with me that commercial fishing has done untold damage to the ocean ecosystems over the last hundred years or so?

So has farming and everything else we do. Your argument that farming is inherently better but has just recently been done wrong, whereas wild harvest is inherently worse, is founded in ignorance.

Something needs to be done about commercial fishing, we can't just sit here and say it cannot be stopped until the ocean floors are swept clean now can we? Or can we?

Have you read my article on marine parks as fisheries management tools? Obviously this won't help the whales, but they can effectively be managed via TAC's.

Sorry for dredging up old threads but I have just found this forum

Please do. That's what they're there for.

I prefer to search rather than cover old ground unless I have too.

Same here.

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Peter Garrett appears to support the current harvest rate:

Govt 'must make stand against whaling'

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Govt-must-make-stand-against-whaling/2007/05/18/1178995378294.html

A giant inflatable whale welcomed visitors to the launch of the whale watching season at Sydney's Darling Harbour on Friday.

Mr Garrett used his Sydney Whale Festival opening address to attack the government over "scientific" whaling.

The timing was right just 10 days out from the next International Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting in Anchorage, Alaska.

"The Australian government must get off the sidelines and start taking some pronounced action to ensure there isn't an increase in the slaughter of whales in and around Australian waters," Mr Garrett told members of the scientific community, tourism operators and reporters.

Since 1998, volunteers organised by the National Parks and Wildlife Service have carried out an annual survey of humpbacks from Cape Solander, south of Sydney's Botany Bay.

In the past nine years, the number of humpbacks spotted has swelled by 440 per cent, although this could partly because of the increase in volunteers.

International Fund for Animal Welfare Asia Pacific director Mick McIntyre said whales were worth more alive than dead.

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Labor plan to board whalers

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21765743-2702,00.html

THE Howard Government has slammed Labor's tough new policy against Japanese whaling, claiming that boarding vessels on the high seas would risk putting Australia "into the business of piracy" and damage closer diplomatic ties forged with Tokyo.

Kevin Rudd wants Australia to take a leadership role to end the slaughter of whales, which would mean interception of vessels operating illegally in Australian waters and taking Japan to the International Court of Justice.

Labor would move to enforce Australian law banning the slaughter of whales in the Australian Whale Sanctuary, which includes Heard and McDonald Islands in the Southern Ocean.

But Foreign Minister Alexander Downer told The Australian last night that for Australia to confront vessels of other countries on the high seas would be "technically speaking an act of piracy", and would have no legal foundation.

"The waters off the Australian Antarctic Territory that we describe as our exclusive international zone, are not recognised as being Australian waters by most countries in the world, and certainly not recognised by Japan," Mr Turnbull told the Nine network's Sunday program.

He said the ALP's plan to intercept and board Japanese whaling vessels could provoke conflict with Tokyo, which recently agreed to forge closer defence ties with Canberra.

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Stop whale-kill program, NZ tells Japan

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Stop-whalekill-program-NZ-tells-Japan/2007/05/22/1179601390484.html

Japan should drop plans to kill 50 humpback whales later this year as a gesture of goodwill after New Zealand helped a crippled Japanese whaling ship in Antarctica, the NZ environment minister said.

Conservation Minister Chris Carter said Japan's move to kill 50 humpback whales - an endangered species - as part of its scientific whaling program was a "provocative act" and would generate "enormous hostility" worldwide.

Carter, meanwhile, said anti-whaling countries were expected to regain a majority at the International Whaling Commission's (IWC) annual meeting in Alaska next week.

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'No threat' to commercial whaling ban

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/No-threat-to-commercial-whaling-ban/2007/05/29/1180205197972.html

Environment Minister Malcolm Turnbull is confident anti-whaling nations have the numbers to prevent any Japanese-led attempt to resume commercial whaling.

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IWC approves whaling quotas for Inuits

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/IWC-approves-whaling-quotas-for-Inuits/2007/05/30/1180205285942.html

The International Whaling Commission has approved extending bowhead whaling quotas for Alaskan Inuits for subsistence hunting.

The 76-nation commission voted by consensus to allow 280 bowhead whales to be taken over a five-year period, ending in 2012. A majority of that, 260 bowheads, is reserved for Alaska natives in 10 villages, with 20 bowheads granted to Russian residents, according to Scott Smullen, a spokesman for the US delegation.

Japan has long sought "community whaling" status, which would give it quotas under provisions similar to those that allow Alaska natives and other indigenous groups to hunt the mammals. It was not immediately clear when the IWC would take up Japan's request.

Harvesting whales is considered a sacred accomplishment by many of an estimated 5,000 Alaskan Inuits who rely heavily on the meat to fill their tables. Ceremonial dances are held to bless the hunts and successful harvests prompt village celebrations where the meat is cut up and distributed.

If you can sit and watch a whale being 'caught' without grimacing, wincing, throwing up or feeling that your heat is breaking then you're qualified to argue why whaling should not be banned. I cannot support the practice and I despise the Norwegians, Icelanders and Japanese for continuing the practice. Call me a bleeding heart environMENTAList and hypocrite, but thats the way it is for me.

If you can sit and watch a whale being 'caught' without grimacing, wincing, throwing up or feeling that your heat is breaking

Drink some cement and harden up. Cows, pigs and chooks don't give birth to plastic wrap and styrofoam either.

Most people living in cities are so far removed from what is required to exist that they are blinded by dogma. It's unfortunate that the drivers of the bandwagon bus have blacked out the windows so that no one can see.

As they are the oldest mammal in existence we need to protect them from whaling - if nothing else because the hunters use such cruel and inhumane methods of killing them. "
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I dont know much about whaling except that I love whales and would like to see them protected..so I am with Mantra and concur with her sentiments..

You obviously need a quick drying cement seeing as they are still effecting you, although I fail to see the link between harvesting a food source and death of wildlife from pollution