Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 21
Send Topic Print
Why we should allow whaling (Read 161003 times)
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #75 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 3:55pm
 
I have put some up. Then I reiterated for freediver. I am not going to turn it into a thesis. If you want to learn more about the behaviour and intelligence of whales and dolphins then why don't you do your own research/ reading?

Rubbish- you posted one article regarding fish and pain. If there are reams of evidence that these mammals should be somehow spared because of their magical properties then post it. You can't because there isn't any

I have read up on behaviour and intelligence and sentience- none of which can be used as a demarcation line that distinctly separates what people should and shouldn't eat.


Societies of course.


Which society?

'Do unto others as you would do unto them' is a good starting point. The 'others' in this case are species that are close to us in terms of awareness and intelligence.


So are you going to call for that ban on bacon, or is it only charismatic megafauna that brings your anthropomorphism to the fore when it comes to protectionist measures based on emotion? There are plenty of divers out there who would say that certain species of fish also display characteristics of intelligence.

We are drawing a line already and our world hasn't fallen apart has it? Whaling has been banned in Australia and most other countries for decades.

See FD's post on the reasons for the ban in the first place

Well lets see what you make of these comments and I'll let others decide who is able to debate. 

I didn't think much of them at all
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #76 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:22pm
 
Rubbish- you posted one article regarding fish and pain. If there are reams of evidence that these mammals should be somehow spared because of their magical properties then post it. You can't because there isn't any


So how did you reach this wonderful state of enlightenment - years of research on the subject? It looks like you haven't even read this thread. I did post an article on this subject - by Dr Walter Starck. Freediver and myself have also been refering to it in many of our posts.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #77 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:28pm
 
Dr Starcks 'opinion' piece is just that- an opinion that holds as much weight as a rabid anti-fishing environmentalist on why recreational catch and release fishing should be banned.

Try again.
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #78 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:30pm
 
Here's some more:

Whale and dolphin intelligence is confirmed


A new scientific paper published in an international journal sheds light on the previously disputed intelligence of whales and dolphins

Whales and Dolphins are indeed highly intelligent, as has long been believed – this is the conclusion of a new paper from Mark Simmonds, International Director of Science for WDCS, the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society. The research stands in stark contrast to some recent reports that such animals fail to exhibit intelligence.

In his paper, Into the Brains of Whales, published this month in Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Simmonds puts forward a compelling argument for the highly developed intelligence of both whales and dolphins. He asserts that, rather than brain anatomy or size, which is sometimes used to indicate cognitive ability, more accurate indicators of intelligence can be found in behaviour and social structures.

One such indicator is that of self-awareness. Bottlenose dolphins have been shown to be able to recognise themselves in a mirror, a behaviour that until recently has only been recorded in humans and great apes. Similarly, tool use can be seen as a mark of intelligence. In a masterstroke of innovation, some Indo-Pacific bottlenose dolphins carry sponges on the ends of their beaks to protect them when foraging for food on the sea bed.

Evidence of the typically human emotions, grief, parental love and joy, as well as the existence of complex social interactions and structures, are further indicators of the highly developed intelligence of whales and dolphins. In one example, despite the risk of dehydration, stranding and shark attack, a group of false killer whales floated for 3 days in the shallows of the straits of Florida, USA to protect an injured male. Such was their cohesion and reliance upon the group, individuals became agitated when rescuers tried to separate them, calming only when reunited.

The potential impacts of threats such as whaling, pollution and fishing nets on such highly intelligent animals, may be far greater and wider ranging than is currently thought. In drastically reducing populations, whalers may have destroyed not just numerous individuals, but also the cultural knowledge they had relating to exploitation of certain habitats and areas, ultimately altering the evolution of the species.

Simmonds comments. ‘It is the behaviour of animals that tells us about their mental capacities, not brain size or anatomy. Anyone who has interacted with dolphins usually swiftly and intuitively realises that they are meeting intelligent, emotional and extraordinary animals’.

In his paper he concludes. "Our relationship with these animals therefore needs to move to a new paradigm recognising these animals as unique individuals, communities, societies and cultures and valuing them as such"

Into the Brains of Whales by Mark Peter Simmonds was published this month in the Journal of Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 100 (2006) 103-116 and a penultimate draft is available at www.wdcs.org/publications. The published paper can be purchased at www.sciencedirect.com for a charge of $30.

Source:WDCS
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #79 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:36pm
 
One such indicator is that of self-awareness. Bottlenose dolphins have been shown to be able to recognise themselves in a mirror, a behaviour that until recently has only been recorded in humans and great apes. Similarly, tool use can be seen as a mark of intelligence.

So the ability of an animal to recognise itself in a mirror is where you would like to draw the line?
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #80 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:50pm
 
Wikipedia gives a good summary on cetacian intelligence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetacean_intelligence

They rate impressively in areas of brain size, behaviour, pod characteristics, complex play, creative behaviour, use of tools, communication self awareness and comparative cognition.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #81 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:55pm
 
IQSRLOW wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:36pm:
One such indicator is that of self-awareness. Bottlenose dolphins have been shown to be able to recognise themselves in a mirror, a behaviour that until recently has only been recorded in humans and great apes. Similarly, tool use can be seen as a mark of intelligence.

So the ability of an animal to recognise itself in a mirror is where you would like to draw the line?


No I draw the line at dolphins and whales. The great apes would fall into that category as well.  If you want to discuss want I think about harvesting other species I'm happy to do so.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #82 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:11pm
 
No I draw the line at dolphins and whales.

Why only cetaceans? (The apes line has already been covered by FD)

If the mark of intelligence is your only defining criteria, then you must support arguments against harvesting all animals that display some level of intelligence.

If you want to discuss want I think about harvesting other species I'm happy to do so.

I'm interested to discuss why you think cetaceans deserve special a special category
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #83 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:17pm
 
Some more on dolphins:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041027112550.htm

In addition to their large brains, odontocetes have demonstrated behavioral faculties previously only ascribed to humans and, to some extent, other great apes. These abilities include mirror self-recognition, the comprehension of artificial, symbol-based communication systems and abstract concepts, and the learning and intergenerational transmission of behaviors that have been described as cultural.

Despite cognitive commonalities, the odontocete evolutionary pathway has proceeded under a very different set of independent circumstances from that of primates, Marino explains. The highly expanded brain size and behavioral abilities of odontocetes are, in a sense, convergently shared with humans, she says.

"Dolphin brains are four to five times larger for their body size when compared to another animal of similar size. In humans, the measure is seven times larger -- not a huge difference. Essentially, the brains of primates and cetaceans arrived at the same cognitive space while evolving along quite different paths" Marino says. "What the data say to me is that we, as humans, are not that special. Although we are highly encephalized, it's not by much or for that long compared with odontocetes".


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #84 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:39pm
 
These abilities include mirror self-recognition, the comprehension of artificial, symbol-based communication systems and abstract concepts, and the learning and intergenerational transmission of behaviors that have been described as cultural.

So if these attributes are found in other species in future studies- say Blue Groper, then you would advocate a ban on them too?
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48834
At my desk.
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #85 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:50pm
 
No I draw the line at dolphins and whales. The great apes would fall into that category as well.

So you would class apes as dolphins and whales? Perhaps you should elaborate on where you would draw the line, as it appears that you are attempting to create a facade of objectiveness around a purely emotional and cultural selection.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #86 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 6:07pm
 
IQSRLOW wrote on Jan 2nd, 2008 at 5:39pm:
These abilities include mirror self-recognition, the comprehension of artificial, symbol-based communication systems and abstract concepts, and the learning and intergenerational transmission of behaviors that have been described as cultural.

So if these attributes are found in other species in future studies- say Blue Groper, then you would advocate a ban on them too?



Come off it. Fish are nowhere near that advanced. As the article I put up on fish and pain shows they don't have anything resembling the brain structures that would indicate conciousness.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #87 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 6:14pm
 
Pain is not an observable response to injury. It is reasonable to expect a response to an injury to be suited to the environment, regardless of how much pain is felt. To say that the observatiosn do not match the hypothesis is absurd, because their is no reasonable way to predict what observations would indicate pain.

Perhaps you should try to define pain. Then you would get a feeling for the flaws in the assumptions behind this reasearch. So, what is pain?  


The article offered a definition of pain, freediver:

The authors definitions of pain and nociception are invalid, consequently this paper does not actually deal with pain (a conscious experience), it deals only with nociception (unconscious responses to noxious stimuli). Pain, as defined by the International Association for the Study of Pain is purely a conscious experience, with a sensory component and a component of emotional feeling (suffering). In contrast to this conscious experience of pain, the unconscious detection, transmission and response to noxious stimulation by lower levels of the nervous system is and defined as nociception - not pain. According to Sneddon, and associates, any behavior that is a reflex would be evidence of nociception but any behavior more complex than a
reflex would be evidence of pain. This way of distinguishing pain from nociception is invalid because there are clearly complex, non-reflexive behaviors that can be purely nociceptive and unconscious. For example, humans with extensive damage of the cerebral hemispheres can still make a complex of responses including facial grimaces, vocalizations, struggling and avoidance reactions to noxious stimuli, but they are unconscious and
unable to experience pain. From the definition of pain used by Sneddon and associates, it would be concluded that these unconscious humans are feeling pain rather than making purely unconscious, nociceptive responses,
which is clearly erroneous. There are many other examples of complex, non-reflexive, even distress-like behaviors that can be performed unconsciously. A person having a night terror, for instance, will show a compelling fear-like display, including a scream, terrified facial expression, elevated heart rate, sweating and dilated pupils, even though they are unconscious and in such deep sleep that they are difficult to awaken. The point is that complex behavioral displays that seem to reflect distress can be purely unconscious  even in humans. It should not be hard to appreciate that the behaviors of which a fish is capable could be unconscious as well.






Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #88 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 6:18pm
 
Pigs feel pain, they have complex social structures and they exhibit intelligence- Should bacon be banned?
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1403
Gender: male
Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #89 - Jan 2nd, 2008 at 6:56pm
 
Pigs are ranked lower than dolphins and whales in intelligence. They are porbably akin to dogs in intelligence. Do you condone cruelty to dogs IQSRLOW? Our legal system certainly doesn't.

So I would suggest they should be raised and slaughtered humanely. Also unlike whales and dolphins they have been domesticated for centuries for the purpose of food production. This puts things in a somewhat different light also.   

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 21
Send Topic Print