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Is Islam inherently violent? (Read 86438 times)
lapaz62
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #240 - May 19th, 2008 at 9:40pm
 
As predictable as always, YAWN.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #241 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:04pm
 
lapaz - i agree
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #242 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:05pm
 


Rebels call the shots Martin Chulov, Middle East correspondent, Beirut | May 17, 2008

"JUST before midnight on Wednesday, Beirut erupted in gunfire that locals briefly thought heralded a long-dreaded new sectarian war.

Perhaps worse than that, it was the beginning of phase two in the takeover of Lebanon that the Government and the West seem unable to stop. It also marked a sharp escalation in a creeping proxy war that is reshaping the region.
As tracer rounds lit the downtown sky, news quickly spread that the shots were fired not in anger but joy. The gunmen were Hezbollah followers who had held the country to ransom for a week and whose demands had been met by a Government that could no longer defy them.

Bar patrons in the nearby swanky Christian neighbourhood of Gemmayze retreated to their drinks and flat-screen televisions showing MPs trying to sell the backdown to their heartland. Less than 100m away, Shia Muslims, who had camped out for a year along what was once the civil war green line demarcating Christian east Beirut from the Sunni Muslim west of the city, continued firing into the night, their rapture subsiding only when their ammunition ran out.

The Government had just given way on two issues that a week earlier it had considered bastions of sovereignty. The first was a move to sack the airport security chief, a senior Hezbollah man whose allegiances did not lie with the law-makers. The second was to dismantle a communications network used by Hezbollah to avoid the electronic eavesdroppers of Israel and the West.

Hezbollah, in turn, had viewed both issues as crucial to its influence. It barely missed a minute to use both as leverage to break an 18-month logjam that until then had been confined to the political arena.

Iranian-trained and armed Hezbollah gunmen, more accustomed to the forests and banana groves of southern Lebanon, were soon snaking through the streets of west Beirut and the centre of government power. They took the neighbourhood with ease, stopping only to shoot at security cameras.

West Beirut fell as Lebanon's stakeholders in Tehran, Washington, Damascus, Riyadh and Jerusalem looked on. Next came the mountain stronghold of Druze leader and government loyalist Walid Jumblatt, whose militiamen were no such pushovers. Rockets thundered into the Druze neighbourhoods, fired from launchers positioned near the coast.

The previous time Hezbollah had used such rockets was in its war with Israel two years ago. It had vowed never to turn the weapons on compatriots. But the rules of the game have changed in Lebanon. Also changing are world views on what to do next.

Watching perhaps more closely than any other nation is the US, which has invested a hefty slice of political capital in trying to transform Lebanon from the ruins of a sectarian hell to a budding Arab democracy it can showcase to the region.

US gains in the Middle East have been scant during the past six years and its bid to spread key democratic themes of prosperity and nation-building have been slow to take hold.

The US foothold in Lebanon has been shaky at best during the past 18 months, when Hezbollah and its allies, which command the political Opposition in Lebanon, have prevented parliament from convening and have demanded veto over appointments and laws. Hezbollah's main backer, Iran, has been accused of using Lebanon as a strategic enclave to undermine the US's position region-wide and of setting up a proxy commando army on the northern fringe of Israel. Hezbollah's new willingness to enforce its agenda through the barrel of its guns and the Government's inability to stop it adds a dangerous dimension to what until now has been a battle of wills between the two foes.

"I think the US is more affected than Israel," says Barry Rubin, director of the Global Research in International Affairs Centre. "The Iranians, and many in the Arab world, see the current struggle as a zero-sum game. If Tehran backs its allies and they advance, and the US - and let's not forget the Europeans - do nothing, this signals they are winning. People in the Arab world watch and draw conclusions.

"The key thing is that Hezbollah has a list of demands. The main one is that they get veto power in the Government.

"Another is that the investigation into the assassination (of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri) be stopped. So they aren't biding their time but pressing their demands. They also have a big problem: how are they going to get what they want?"

In many observers' eyes, the past week's events give a good indication.

"Hezbollah made its move as soon as it detected a weakness in the US position in the Middle East, thereby effecting a drastic change in the power balance in Lebanon," says Jumblatt, who was rattled by the guerilla group's move against him. "Now we are waiting for Hezbollah, Iran and Syria to determine the rules of the game."

Like Jumblatt, Saudi Arabia was not mincing words. Speaking to a Lebanese newspaper, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud Al-Faisal said: "The legitimate Government in Lebanon is facing a large-scale war (and) we cannot stand idly by. Iran has undertaken to run that war and Hezbollah intends to forcibly (transform) Lebanon into a state with a 'rule of the jurisprudent'.

to be cont'd ....
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #243 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:07pm
 

"Like Jumblatt, Saudi Arabia was not mincing words. Speaking to a Lebanese newspaper, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud Al-Faisal said: "The legitimate Government in Lebanon is facing a large-scale war (and) we cannot stand idly by. Iran has undertaken to run that war and Hezbollah intends to forcibly (transform) Lebanon into a state with a 'rule of the jurisprudent'.

"We must do everything in our power to end this war and to save Lebanon, even if this would involve forming an Arab force to rapidly deploy throughout Lebanon, to restore its security and defend the current legitimate Government."

The Saudi candour is a dramatic change in tack from the shuttle diplomacy and quiet coercion it has preferred during the past year, in which it has boosted Lebanon's treasury coffers to the tune of $US1 billion, thanks to soaring oilrevenues.

Saudi Arabia fears the rise of Iran perhaps more than the US. Its wariness extends beyond a perceived nuclear threat to a religious and cultural dynamic; the Sunni Arab state and keeper of two holy Islamic shrines sees a subversive threat from the rise of the Shias and a cultural challenge posed by Iranian ascendancy.

"This past week was a milestone for Iran in its pursuit of regional hegemony and its defiance of the West," says Middle East expert Eran Lerman, of the American Jewish Council.

Lebanon's Shias have been an Iranian project since the early days of the 1979 Islamic revolution, which tapped into the resentment they felt as Lebanon's dispossessed and the threat they came under during the Israeli invasion three years later.

"The real story is no longer about the Shia being disenfranchised like they were in the '70s," Lerman says. "It's (now) about external allegiances."

As Israel marked its 60th year of independence this week, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again hammered his anti-Zionist rhetoric, declaring that the end of the "counterfeit nation" was not far off.

Israel is watching from Lebanon's borders with mounting concern, even in the wake of an Arab League delegation's efforts to stop the slide. On Friday, the Arab League boldly predicted a new president would finally be anointed in Beirut by Sunday after 19 delays caused by the Opposition. The league also suggested a national unity government would soon be formed, with all sides finally finding common ground.

It is hard to see how that will happen, Western observers insist, with neither the Government nor Opposition willing or able to budge from their positions on who has veto power, and the form and nature of the UN tribunal to try the suspects in the 2005 assassination of Hariri.

"From Israel's standpoint, this is bad in thelong run, but the immediate question is: will Hezbollah be more likely to attack Israel because of this development?" Rubin asks. "I think that Hezbollah is still bogged down in Lebanese politics and precisely because they think they can win, they are more likely to spend the next year focused on internal struggles."

Lebanon's role as a client state appears to have been consolidated during the past week. Also likelier is that it will soon be an arena foranother round of conflict, which is at a serious risk of drawing in the heavy guns of the puppet-masters. The cold war of the Middle East is getting rapidly hotter. And, given the intransigent positions of foreign parties, a military confrontation of some sort seems likelier than not."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23710295-15084,00.html
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #244 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:10pm
 
You seem to be missng the point here sprint. Those articles could just as easily 'show' that people, or men are inherently violent. You can't pretend that everything that happens in the middle east, or everything that a muslims does, is caused by Islam. Posting loads of articles will not convince anyone that it is as simple as you make out. It's a logical fallacy that most people see right through.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #245 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:22pm
 
so why are they all muslims and use the koran as their reasoning ?
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #246 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:26pm
 



"Another factor that contributed to the violence, however, was a creeping radical Islamicisation - a small but growing number of youths in Gaza hitching themselves to an al-Qa'ida world view that pitches them against the rest of the Strip and renders, as fair game to be killed, anyone seen as acting "un-Islamicly'.

A spate of so-called honour-killings of women accounted for about 25 per cent of the body count - far higher than any of the years before.

Political tensions had steadily risen in Gaza since March 2006, when Hamas was sworn in as the elected Government of the Palestinian territories, including the West Bank. The poll win three months earlier terminated 40 years of the rule of the Fatah movement and its predecessors, and ended the patronage of many Palestine Liberation Organisation chieftains and warlords. Violence didn't erupt immediately but, by late December that year, it was in full swing."

Spot quote for you freediver

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23718649-15084,00.html

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #247 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:35pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 19th, 2008 at 8:49pm:
What about hilalis comments, the hamas, iran, libya, syria ?
Or the original mass murdering paedophile himself, mohammad?


Sprint, religions evolve. You here emanate a certain kind of intolerance for Islam based on Muhammad. We could easily call Jesus the descendant of murdering prophets. Like Samuel, who ordered the slaying of men, women and children, and when Saul spared King Agag and the animals, Samuel chopped him up into pieces. The problem here is, one must not point fingers if one's religion also has its origins in pure barbarity. People were stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath. Judah was an adulterous hypocrite. Elisha killed children because they insulted him, in the name of God. The God of the Old Testament can only be described as a merciless tyrant.

Out of all this - came Christianity.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #248 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:39pm
 
What I'm trying to understand is why some Christians are so obsessed with Islam? Is it a threat? Is it because they don't believe that Jesus is God's "only son, begotten in the flesh"? Why this negative obsession with Islam? Christianity dunked and burned heretics. Nothing wrong with that?
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lapaz62
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #249 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:46pm
 
Are you blind Ray, look at the world. Christians have nothing to do with whats going on. What do the terrorists say, Death to America, not death to the Christians. And by the way, Buddhists and Hindus dont like them either.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #250 - May 19th, 2008 at 10:54pm
 
lapaz62 wrote on May 19th, 2008 at 10:46pm:
Are you blind Ray, look at the world. Christians have nothing to do with whats going on. What do the terrorists say, Death to America, not death to the Christians. And by the way, Buddhists and Hindus dont like them either.


Are you blind to the vast difference between David Koresh and Jesus Christ?

Lap, how many Muslims do you personally know? Please be honest here. What is the extent of your interaction among Muslims living in Australia?
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #251 - May 19th, 2008 at 11:33pm
 
OK smart guy, I work with hundreds, from various countries, there are over 1000 people where I work, 30% middle eastern. Some were cheering the world trade centre burning. I live in an area mainly Turkish and Lebenese, you cant even go to the shops at night, because the little bastards hang around allnight picking fights with anyone they dont like. My wife has been followed home twice and been hassled more times than we can remember. A Turkish man was bashed after work because he ate during ramadam, he is a non practising Muslim, they still bashed him. I can go a hole day and not hear anyone speak English. The streets are discusting, rubbish everywhere, you cant even catch the train at night. But you dont have that trouble do you, because you actually dont know any and if you do I bet their better educated then the scum where I live. Years ago it was all Greeks and Italians, great people, most of them, they never wanted to bash you, so you go back to your leafy suburbs and have a latte for me.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #252 - May 19th, 2008 at 11:38pm
 
lapaz62 wrote on May 19th, 2008 at 11:33pm:
OK smart guy, I work with hundreds, from various countries, there are over 1000 people where I work, 30% middle eastern. Some were cheering the world trade centre burning. I live in an area mainly Turkish and Lebenese, you cant even go to the shops at night, because the little bastards hang around allnight picking fights with anyone they dont like. My wife has been followed home twice and been hassled more times than we can remember. A Turkish man was bashed after work because he ate during ramadam, he is a non practising Muslim, they still bashed him. I can go a hole day and not hear anyone speak English. The streets are discusting, rubbish everywhere, you cant even catch the train at night. But you dont have that trouble do you, because you actually dont know any and if you do I bet their better educated then the scum where I live. Years ago it was all Greeks and Italians, great people, most of them, they never wanted to bash you, so you go back to your leafy suburbs and have a latte for me.


Do you live in western Sydney?
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #253 - May 19th, 2008 at 11:50pm
 
lapaz62 wrote on May 19th, 2008 at 11:33pm:
Some were cheering the world trade centre burning.


How many? One or two? I know one who cheered this on too.  


lapaz62 wrote on May 19th, 2008 at 11:33pm:
I live in an area mainly Turkish and Lebenese, you cant even go to the shops at night, because the little bastards hang around allnight picking fights with anyone they dont like. My wife has been followed home twice and been hassled more times than we can remember. A Turkish man was bashed after work because he ate during ramadam, he is a non practising Muslim, they still bashed him. I can go a hole day and not hear anyone speak English. The streets are discusting, rubbish everywhere, you cant even catch the train at night. But you dont have that trouble do you, because you actually dont know any and if you do I bet their better educated then the scum where I live. Years ago it was all Greeks and Italians, great people, most of them, they never wanted to bash you, so you go back to your leafy suburbs and have a latte for me.


Leafy surburb? I live in Wollongong, and I work from Gong's most populous "Leb" surburb, Cringila. Which is now Gong's most safe suburb, in comparison to other "white" suburbs where crime and violence is rampant, and ALL from "young white Aussies". "Ethnic violence" is a complete myth, because most violence is done by young Aussies! I've never had a Leb or wog run on me (as a cab driver), and I know I can trust them. It's ALWAYS the young Aussies who do so much poo to us, and abuse us.  

Funny how our experiences differ so greatly.  Maybe it's human nature?
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #254 - May 20th, 2008 at 11:00am
 
That makes more sense sprint. There's no need to point out that the middle east is violent or that there is terrorism. There is a need to ask why. Repeatedly pointing out the violence won't asnwer that question.
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