And people like Sprint are playing right into that by trying to use religion to mask the more obvious political problems. Once you do that, you turn a tractable problem into a quagmire.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:39pm:

Let's not also forget what Jesus pbuh said which can be seen in Luke 22:35-38

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
     "Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
     "That is enough," he replied.

So tell me, why did Jesus pbuh tell his own disciples to sell their own goods and purchase swords? It certainly wasn't to use for ornamental value. It was so the disciples could defend themselves against the Soldiers, should they have attacked them.

Self defense is a inalienable human right.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:39pm:

The battle of the trench was a defensive war, where the Muslims defended themselves in their city (Medina) against a siege initiated by the Pagan army from Mecca. The Pagans conspired against the Muslims with the Banu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe who had previously signed a pact with Muhammad to be protected under the Islamic state in Medina and be given their full rights. That means they were living under the laws of the state as citizens of the Islamic State. Their acts were considered a breach of the pact which the Muslims had never broken nor humiliated them to give them cause and constituted an act of treason. In any nation, including Australia the punishment for treason is death. That was also the penalty for the adult male members of their tribe for the action.

One must remember that the whole of Banu Qurayza participated in this action, Arab tribes are very democratic and a vote was taken, thus the punishment of those who stayed with the Banu Qurayza after the decision was made to commit treason applied to them equally. There were some of the Banu Qurayza who left the tribe after the decision was taken and they were not harmed at all. I don't see how that can be considered barbaric when even Australian law will punish those who commit treason with death also if they participate in it.


Sprintcyclist wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:39pm:

There are Christians in Saudi arabia, but not of Saudi origin.. The reason for that was because after the Christians in that area had accepted a truce between them and the Muslims they (several times) broke it by supporting the Romans against the Muslims and fighting the Muslims.

After they broke that truce so many times they were relocated to Lebanon, Syria, Iraq etc and given land there to live on.

malik - Jesus has called his followers transgressors for their actions.
he said when you were unarmed, you wanted for nothing.
No he did not tell them to sell their goods for weapons,that is what they were doing against his wishes, teachings and example.

I demand an apology for your false interperetation.

malik - you are right.
I was wrong, sorry.

Jesus is instructing them to take a sword, to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy. He lived his life to fulfill the Old Test.
I had misinterpereted that paragraph.
My apology.


Feel free to point out where I make mistakes in my quotes from the koran or hadiths..

I don't have to refer to Jesus as anything else but Jesus.
Mates are like that.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 27^th, 2008 at 9:52pm:

It's ok.

Although I disagree with your interpretation I certainly accept that you are entitled to your own opinion of what it says.

Quote:

I referred to historical accounts when I mentioned the Battle of the Trench.

We are however agreed that several hundred Jewish men were indeed executed, as I mentioned it was the punishment for their breaking of the pact they held with the Muslims and their treason in conspiring with the Pagans against the Islamic State that they were citizens of. They would have had the same punishment regardless what religion they were. The death penalty is the penalty applicable for treason for most nations, even in Australia today that is the punishment.

In regards to the Christians and Jews that were moved from the Gulf, this is because they had broken a treaty that they had with the Muslims and rebelled. Thus to protect the integrity of the Gulf because it's a strategic area. They were relocated to Iraq, Lebanon and Syria and given land there. If they had not broken the truce they would not have been relocated, the Muslims protect the rights of the Christians and Jews after they have agreed to a pact. The agreement sets out conditions and if they break the conditions they are not given protection of their rights. They were lucky to even be moved to Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

I will also mention that I do not consider the Saudi Arabian government as an Islamic government, they are far from it and are despotic hypocrites. I don't condone their actions in preventing people from owning the bible. They are Wahabis and I really don't like Wahabis at all.

Malik Shakur wrote on May 27^th, 2008 at 11:36pm:


No it is not the penalty here.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 27^th, 2008 at 11:57pm:


Not that Christianity has not done more than enough to attempt to destroy the Jewish people.

Every age has an ugly tale of Jewish persecution by Christians. Even the great reformer and anti-papist Martin Luther hated them with almost psychotic zeal (read 'The Jews and their Lies').

Finally Hitler did what centuries of Jew hating Christians had always dreamed of doing... mass extermination... and he wasn't shy in reminding religious leaders of the fact, either.