Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam inherently violent?

freediver

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #345 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:30am

Phillip, it is based on Islamic doctrine, not what happened 'when the caliphate fell'.

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theocracy is against Sunni Islam

Can you explain that please? Isn't a caliphate a theocracy?

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slavery has been outlawed by the last legit islamic state

Undre pressure from Great Britain etc.

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for the record horny men can't make war by themselves or for that purpose

But they make it a whole lot easier for those who do want to make war. They also make it easier for those looking for willing suicide bombers.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224649993

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your using 10th century terminology which only OBL uses today

I thought Islamic law was timeless. How has it changed?

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Not really, the "mission" of Islam is to invite every person born in the world to accept or reject faith

That doesn't contradict my point.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #346 - Nov 14^th, 2008 at 7:31pm Invite... hmmm that's a peculiar word for it. We would like to invite you to join our religion... you can choose not to... however that may mean you will be treated as a second class citizen or of course the option of death is always available. Have a nice day now.
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Phillip

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #347 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:40pm

Grendel wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 7:31pm:

Invite... hmmm that's a peculiar word for it.

We would like to invite you to join our religion... you can choose not to... however that may mean you will be treated as a second class citizen or of course the option of death is always available. Have a nice day now.

Not really, feel free to specify what makes non muslims in an Islamic state, second class citizens.

And no one is going to be killed for not wanting to convert.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #348 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:42pm Dhimmitude makes them second class citizens. Apparently when Muslims invaded Hindu lands they incorporated a modified caste system with them on top and local converts second. Not sure about local non-Muslims.
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Phillip

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #349 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:59pm

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Can you explain that please? Isn't a caliphate a theocracy?

In sunni Islam the leader of the state (khalif) was usually a political leader and the religious leaders made commentary on his decisions.(but they were not part of the govt) And if they made too many bad commentaries on his decisions, someone might be "inspired" to try to overthrow the govt.

In a theocracy the clerics are the govt.

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Undre pressure from Great Britain etc.

moot point, it was done and almost all muslims recognize that slavery is gone for good.

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But they make it a whole lot easier for those who do want to make war. They also make it easier for those looking for willing suicide bombers.

firstly suicide bombing is not motivated by lust or horniness, this has been the subject of psycological papers and the claim that its done for "wifey" reasons has been discredited.
secondly the point i made in the part i quoted is that in Islam only a govt can conduct war, so that usually removes the possibility that hormones are in any way a motivator for war.

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I thought Islamic law was timeless. How has it changed?

This particular "thing" is not actually part of islamic law but its how the early muslims understood the world. It was based on some verses and saying. It lasted as a binary war/peace thing for a short time then it was expanded to "land of treaty"(a place that you are at peace with) and another one which i can't really translate but it means that as long as muslims can practice their faith without persecution that land isn't at war with muslims.(this one would be what Australia would fall under)

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That doesn't contradict my point.

it does on several points, there isn't an inherent antagonism toward christianity. Its usually about politics and power dynamics.

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Phillip

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #350 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:06pm

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:42pm:

Dhimmitude makes them second class citizens.

Apparently when Muslims invaded Hindu lands they incorporated a modified caste system with them on top and local converts second. Not sure about local non-Muslims.

Dhimmitude is fine, as a general rule a lot of rules applied to muslims only and if you were a non muslim in a muslim land they had to use this system in order to make sure everyone was paying the same tax. For example Dhimmis don't pay muslim taxes they pay their own. Although currently there has been a discussions amoungst some scholars as to the future of the Dhimmitude in any future khalifate or if a creed neutral citizenship is the way to go.

They did this in Spain as well, it wasn't about caste system so much as that sometimes power plays dictated that they needed to keep the non muslims happy. In india the only way to escape the caste is to become a muslim or christian, and under both you would be a target by the Hindu extremists.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #351 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:08pm

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In sunni Islam the leader of the state (khalif) was usually a political leader and the religious leaders made commentary on his decisions.(but they were not part of the govt) And if they made too many bad commentaries on his decisions, someone might be "inspired" to try to overthrow the govt.

In a theocracy the clerics are the govt.

So Islam actually calls for dictatorship, not theocracy?

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moot point, it was done and almost all muslims recognize that slavery is gone for good.

I don't think Abu does. And the reason is relevant because my question is about islamic doctrine, not history.

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firstly suicide bombing is not motivated by lust or horniness

Not directly. But if they were married with a kid would they still do it? Would they value their own life more if they were content and not denied a chance at love by society?

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secondly the point i made in the part i quoted is that in Islam only a govt can conduct war, so that usually removes the possibility that hormones are in any way a motivator for war.

That doesn't stop Islam affecting people's bahaviour when there is no caliphate. Also, a government will inevitably be affected by the people in deciding whether to go to war. If you cannot easily raise an army, war is difficult. If there are vast numbers of 15-25 year old men with not much to do but a lot of spare energy to get rid of, war suddenly becomes a whole lot easier.

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This particular "thing" is not actually part of islamic law but its how the early muslims understood the world. It was based on some verses and saying.

Verses of the Koran?

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it does on several points, there isn't an inherent antagonism toward christianity. Its usually about politics and power dynamics.

Yes, the antagonism is through politics and power. Like with Dhimmitude.

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Dhimmitude is fine, as a general rule a lot of rules applied to muslims only and if you were a non muslim in a muslim land they had to use this system in order to make sure everyone was paying the same tax.

There is a lot more to Dhimmitude than tax. I wouldn't consider it 'fine' at all.

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Soren

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #352 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:16pm

Phillip wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:06pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2008 at 5:42pm:

Dhimmitude makes them second class citizens.

Apparently when Muslims invaded Hindu lands they incorporated a modified caste system with them on top and local converts second. Not sure about local non-Muslims.

Dhimmitude is fine, as a general rule a lot of rules applied to muslims only and if you were a non muslim in a muslim land they had to use this system in order to make sure everyone was paying the same tax. For example Dhimmis don't pay muslim taxes they pay their own. Although currently there has been a discussions amoungst some scholars as to the future of the Dhimmitude in any future khalifate or if a creed neutral citizenship is the way to go.

They did this in Spain as well, it wasn't about caste system so much as that sometimes power plays dictated that they needed to keep the non muslims happy. In india the only way to escape the caste is to become a muslim or christian, and under both you would be a target by the Hindu extremists.

Yes, dhimmitude is a social justice policy to make sure all working families pay their share of tax (ZZZzzzzz...........) and protect minorities from marauding hindu supremacists. Muslims thought like Kevin Rudd long before there was Kevin Rudd!

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Grendel

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #353 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:18pm

Ding ding ding.....

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In sunni Islam the leader of the state (khalif) was usually a political leader and the religious leaders made commentary on his decisions.(but they were not part of the govt) And if they made too many bad commentaries on his decisions, someone might be "inspired" to try to overthrow the govt.

In a theocracy the clerics are the govt.

I'm sorry but we were told there are no such things as Muslim clerics. Are you now saying there are or aren't?

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Grendel

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #354 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 6:23pm

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Not really, feel free to specify what makes non muslims in an Islamic state, second class citizens.

Dhimmitude and the lack of freedom of religion and the punishments for dissent and different treatment under the legal system. Things we have all been enlightened about here.

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And no one is going to be killed for not wanting to convert.

Really? Wow thats a relief... so very reassuring. Then we can all maintain our own religious beliefs, culture and political systems forever?

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #355 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 10:53pm Quote: I'm sorry but we were told there are no such things as Muslim clerics. Are you now saying there are or aren't? He's referring to theologians (Ulema), not clerics. I quite clearly told freediver that Islam has theologians, but theologians are laypeople, not a clergy.
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Grendel

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #356 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 12:19am

I'm sorry but religious leaders are what?

A theologian is a "student" of religion... I think you'll find yours do much more than study.

the·o·lo·gi·an (thē'ə-lō'jən) Pronunciation Key
n. One who is learned in theology.

the⋅ol⋅o⋅gy /θiˈɒlədʒi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [thee-ol-uh-jee] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -gies. 1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

Now we can again go back and forth with your pedantry... but honestly... why should we?

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« Last Edit: Nov 16^th, 2008 at 12:50am by Grendel »

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