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Is Islam inherently violent? (Read 86437 times)
Leon
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #90 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 9:40am
 
Good call zoso. More web viewing:

Here is the doc by John Pilger I referenced earlier
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-29761977781347669&q=Breaking+the+Silence%3A+The+Truth+and+Lies+in+the+war+on+Terror
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #91 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 1:28pm
 
Quote:
Yes, it was a black day for Australia, and it got broadcast in all the major networks worldwide.
I'm pretty sure the Australian tourism industry took a major hit because of the Cronulla riots, since people would have cancelled their holidays if they saw Australian's as racist.


What, who cancelled. middle eastern tourists? Asians?
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Total anti-marxist and anti-left wing. The Right is Right.&&&&&&
 
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ex-member DonaldTrump
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #92 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 11:36pm
 
Zoso Quote:
Of course the protest was justified. No peaceful protest needs justification, we are free to express our views. The SECOND it became a violent riot it was no longer justifiable in ANY way whatsoever. Just as it is for the anti-globalisation rallies. Cronulla was not a protest in my eyes, it may have begun that way but it quickly became an unjustifiable violent riot. I think the bulk of the country, especially the law would agree with me. That was a black day for Australia.


Gavin Quote:
Yes, it was a black day for Australia, and it got broadcast in all the major networks worldwide.
I'm pretty sure the Australian tourism industry took a major hit because of the Cronulla riots, since people would have cancelled their holidays if they saw Australian's as racist.


*Clap clap clap*

Nice way to twist an argument, you two.


'Unjustifiable violent riot.'

'Black day for Australia.'


"Gee.. let's forget about the violent Lebanese thugs that triggered the protests... let's forget that since the protests, Lebanese have stopped causing trouble in Cronulla... let's forget that it overall raised awareness of the true nature of multiculturalism in Australia... why? -Because it looked bad on TV and made Australians look bad in the eyes of people who probably forgot about it in one day..."    ...Yeah... GREAT!


Quote:
I think the bulk of the country, especially the law would agree with me. That was a black day for Australia.


I'd like you to back up this argument of yours FOR ONCE with a shred of evidence.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #93 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 9:47am
 
You want him to provide evidence that it is his opinion about other people's opinions?
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Leon
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #94 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 11:57am
 
I was on a beach in small a town called Swakopmund in Namibia, Africa when I was told about the riots from a market trader. Trust me, the rest of the World felt this was a sad day for Australia. After going to Aus a few weeks later many many Australians I met were distugusted by the riots, including those from beach towns in Sydney. I then travelled to India and it was being talked about there, and then back home in London two months later, people we still talking about it. But the discussions were never about the Lebanese, they were always about the white Australian rioters. Yes this was a black day for Australia.

Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin said innocent people had been targeted.
"The behaviour that's been seen down here at Cronulla today is nothing short of disgusting and disgraceful," he said. "It's certainly not the Australian way."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4519818.stm

Is that enough of a shred of evidence?

And don't forget my point about propaganda:
"The Cronulla riots erupted after a week-long campaign of incitement by the corporate media, in particular the Murdoch-owned Daily Telegraph, 2GB and 2UE. The trigger for the race riot was a minor incident: an alleged altercation between two off-duty Cronulla lifeguards and some Middle Eastern youths."
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/653/7630

The riots were an explosive outcome of the social tensions produced by the prolonged attack on working class living standards under the Howard government and its Labor predecessor, coupled with the climate of nationalism, racism and militarism cultivated at a state and federal level since the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Federal and state politicians and sections of the mass media have repeatedly labeled Muslims and immigrants, especially of Middle Eastern background, as “potential terrorists”.

Last year, radio shock-jocks such as Alan Jones, who enjoys very close relationships with both Prime Minister John Howard and the New South Wales state Labor government, provided the crucial stimulus for the riots. A weeklong radio talkback campaign was launched to “reclaim our beaches” from “Lebanese gangs” and defend the so-called “Australian way of life,” accompanied by similarly incendiary headlines in Rupert Murdoch’s Daily Telegraph.
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/12/134596.php


But remember the propaganda is fuelled on BOTH sides the only way to counter act and solve this issue is to look deeply in to why this started in the first place.

Watch Zoso's documentary if you haven't already. It will blow you away, followed by at least the last 5 - 10 minutes of the link I posted earlier and maybe what we are talking about will all click in to place.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #95 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 1:02pm
 
Quote:
But the discussions were never about the Lebanese, they were always about the white Australian rioters.


The media wont mention that, as it would be ''racist''

Quote:
Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin said innocent people had been targeted.


I wouldnt call them innocent- if you saw the pics of the targeted, they look like the typical smart arse Leb. Did you see the footage of them trapped in the pub taunting the aussies?

Quote:
"The behaviour that's been seen down here at Cronulla today is nothing short of disgusting and disgraceful," he said. "It's certainly not the Australian way."


Is the way the Lebbo's act ''the Australian way''?


Quote:
"The Cronulla riots erupted after a week-long campaign of incitement by the corporate media, in particular the Murdoch-owned Daily Telegraph, 2GB and 2UE. The trigger for the race riot was a minor incident: an alleged altercation between two off-duty Cronulla lifeguards and some Middle Eastern youths."


The lebs dont understand what authority is.


Quote:
The riots were an explosive outcome of the social tensions produced by the prolonged attack on working class living standards under the Howard government and its Labor predecessor, coupled with the climate of nationalism, racism and militarism cultivated at a state and federal level since the September 11 terrorist attacks.



BULLSHITT


Quote:
Federal and state politicians and sections of the mass media have repeatedly labeled Muslims and immigrants, especially of Middle Eastern background, as “potential terrorists”.


Fair call.


Quote:
But remember the propaganda is fuelled on BOTH sides the only way to counter act and solve this issue is to look deeply in to why this started in the first place.


It dosent take a rocket scientist to figure out why. well for you it might.

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zoso
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #96 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:14pm
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 15th, 2007 at 11:36pm:
*Clap clap clap*

Nice way to twist an argument, you two.


'Unjustifiable violent riot.'

'Black day for Australia.'

I think my comment was quite measured and fair? Do you disagree that violent riots should not be regarded as protests? Because that seems to be your attitude toward other violent riots?

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 15th, 2007 at 11:36pm:
"Gee.. let's forget about the violent Lebanese thugs that triggered the protests... let's forget that since the protests, Lebanese have stopped causing trouble in Cronulla... let's forget that it overall raised awareness of the true nature of multiculturalism in Australia... why? -Because it looked bad on TV and made Australians look bad in the eyes of people who probably forgot about it in one day..."    ...Yeah... GREAT!

Since this sort of thing seems to be isolated to small pockets of Sydney, not Melbourne, not Brisbane, not Adelaide and not Perth, I think it would be fair to say that this is a result of poor policing rather than the 'true nature of multiculturalism'. Melbourne and Adelaide are far more multicultural places than Sydney, if your argument held any water then we would be seeing the same racial tensions in those places. And yet we do not?

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 15th, 2007 at 11:36pm:
I'd like you to back up this argument of yours FOR ONCE with a shred of evidence.

My use of the words 'I think' tend to imply it is an opinion I hold, I see no reason to seek out evidence to support my opinion. My opinion is that it was a black day for Australia, my opinion is that a great majority of this country agrees with me. I may be wrong but we don't take meaningful polls on such things and so no solid evidence ever will exist to support my opinion or yours.

Face it Trump, you are applying one set of values to one protest (the 700k payout example) and a completely different set of values to another protest (cronulla). You have no consistency in your positions, other than a deep seated hatred and fear of other cultures - hippies and muslims alike.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #97 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:42pm
 
Quote:
You want him to provide evidence that it is his opinion about other people's opinions?


I want you to prove that the large bulk of the AVERAGE JOE-BLOW on the street supports multiculturalism and immigration. Put your moneywhere your mouth is you nitwit!!!  Angry


Quote:
I was on a beach in small a town called Swakopmund in Namibia, Africa when I was told about the riots from a market trader. Trust me, the rest of the World felt this was a sad day for Australia. After going to Aus a few weeks later many many Australians I met were distugusted by the riots, including those from beach towns in Sydney. I then travelled to India and it was being talked about there, and then back home in London two months later, people we still talking about it. But the discussions were never about the Lebanese, they were always about the white Australian rioters. Yes this was a black day for Australia.


Whatever... and I also spoke with a few tourists from France and Japan about it... and they were shocked to hear that Muslims had been hassling the locals for decades. Their opinions QUICKLY changed.

It's funny the
truth
gets in the way of a
BULLSHIT story
, hey Leon?



And I don't know where you met these so-called Australians who were 'disgusted' by the riots, Leon. We're they Greek/Italian by any chance?


Quote:
Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin said innocent people had been targeted.
"The behaviour that's been seen down here at Cronulla today is nothing short of disgusting and disgraceful," he said. "It's certainly not the Australian way." 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4519818.stm

Is that enough of a shred of evidence?


No... that was a Government representative you idiot. He says anything the Iemma Government tells him to say.


And don't forget my point about propaganda:
"The Cronulla riots erupted after a week-long campaign of incitement by the corporate media, in particular the Murdoch-owned Daily Telegraph, 2GB and 2UE. The trigger for the race riot was a minor incident: an alleged altercation between two off-duty Cronulla lifeguards and some Middle Eastern youths."
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/653/7630

'Greenleft.'  Roll Eyes How reliable and 'accurately representative' of the Australian community. That's the equivalent of the opinion of a Neo-Nazi website about Jews. Grin


Quote:
The riots were an explosive outcome of the social tensions produced by the prolonged attack on working class living standards under the Howard government and its Labor predecessor, coupled with the climate of nationalism, racism and militarism cultivated at a state and federal level since the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Federal and state politicians and sections of the mass media have repeatedly labeled Muslims and immigrants, especially of Middle Eastern background, as “potential terrorists”.

Last year, radio shock-jocks such as Alan Jones, who enjoys very close relationships with both Prime Minister John Howard and the New South Wales state Labor government, provided the crucial stimulus for the riots. A weeklong radio talkback campaign was launched to “reclaim our beaches” from “Lebanese gangs” and defend the so-called “Australian way of life,” accompanied by similarly incendiary headlines in Rupert Murdoch’s Daily Telegraph.
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/12/134596.php


Right... 


Quote:
But remember the propaganda is fuelled on BOTH sides the only way to counter act and solve this issue is to look deeply in to why this started in the first place. 

Watch Zoso's documentary if you haven't already. It will blow you away, followed by at least the last 5 - 10 minutes of the link I posted earlier and maybe what we are talking about will all click in to place.


I'll think i'll give it a miss, thanks.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #98 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:57pm
 
I want you to prove that the large bulk of the AVERAGE JOE-BLOW on the street supports multiculturalism and immigration. Put your moneywhere your mouth is you nitwit!!! 

While it isn't conclusive proof, it is fairly obvious from a number of indicators, such as offical government policy, that the majority of Australians support multiculturalism. Thus the onus should fall on you to prove that this isn't the case. We have provided a lot of evidence to support our view. You have provided none.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #99 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm
 
Quote:
I think my comment was quite measured and fair? Do you disagree that violent riots should not be regarded as protests? Because that seems to be your attitude toward other violent riots?


I guess it can go either way. I regard it as a 'protest'... you regard it as 'riots.'  Whatever. Neither is incorrect.

To me.. it wasn't THAT violent. It had about two scuffles for the whole afternoon... the crowd didn't attack police... etc...

But to you, this crowd rivalled a scene from WWII.

Differences in perception.


Quote:
Since this sort of thing seems to be isolated to small pockets of Sydney, not Melbourne, not Brisbane, not Adelaide and not Perth, I think it would be fair to say that this is a result of poor policing rather than the 'true nature of multiculturalism'. Melbourne and Adelaide are far more multicultural places than Sydney, if your argument held any water then we would be seeing the same racial tensions in those places. And yet we do not?


It's not as straight-forward as you think it is... zoso. A lot of different factors come in to play to explain why there weren't widespread protests.


Quote:
My opinion is that it was a black day for Australia, my opinion is that a great majority of this country agrees with me. I may be wrong but we don't take meaningful polls on such things and so no solid evidence ever will exist to support my opinion or yours.


That translates to: I have no evidence at all and all I'm basing it off is the small group of friends I have and the seemingly endless politically correct multiculturalism supporting media I see in day to day life. But either way DonaldTrump, if you disagree with me and give evidence that most Australians don't support multiculturalism, I'll still disagree, because I'm a multiculturalism bigot.


Quote:
Face it Trump, you are applying one set of values to one protest (the 700k payout example) and a completely different set of values to another protest (cronulla). You have no consistency in your positions, other than a deep seated hatred and fear of other cultures - hippies and muslims alike.


WTF? How do you figure this?  Huh
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #100 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 4:02pm
 
Quote:
While it isn't conclusive proof, it is fairly obvious from a number of indicators, such as offical government policy, that the majority of Australians support multiculturalism. Thus the onus should fall on you to prove that this isn't the case. We have provided a lot of evidence to support our view. You have provided none.


OH GIVE ME A GODDAMN BREAK!!!  Angry

EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #101 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 4:11pm
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:42pm:
I'll think i'll give it a miss, thanks.

Its actually a very balanced BBC documentary about the bullshit and spin you seem to despise, which paints your feared Muslims in a rather negative light. The point it put across however is that whilst the extreme Muslims may be a concern, pre 'war on terror' they were all but done for as moderate views had gained such strength. Propaganda from both sides fuelled the fire and got us where we are today.

Really it is not some random green left spin, it is the honesty you seem to seek.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #102 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 4:12pm
 
You can't expect other people to come up with heaps of evidence to back up what is obvious when you can't provide any evidence to back up your counterclaim, which flies in the face of available evidence.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #103 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 4:19pm
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm:
I guess it can go either way. I regard it as a 'protest'... you regard it as 'riots.'  Whatever. Neither is incorrect.

To me.. it wasn't THAT violent. It had about two scuffles for the whole afternoon... the crowd didn't attack police... etc...

Both were violent, I see no distinction between one sort of violence and another. A violent protest of any measure is inexcusable.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm:
But to you, this crowd rivalled a scene from WWII.

Differences in perception.

Did I ever say that? My words were "a black day for Australia" how exactly d oyou extrapolate that to be something of WW2 proportions? Is this perhaps the spin you claim to despise?

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm:
It's not as straight-forward as you think it is... zoso. A lot of different factors come in to play to explain why there weren't widespread protests.

Lots of reasons being this is an isolated problem, lots of reasons being the bulk of this country was not interested in your type of 'protest'.

I find it rather bold of you to be telling ME that this is not a 'simple' issue. You appear to be the one who does not see the complexity of multiculturalism and continually paint it as black and white.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm:
That translates to: I have no evidence at all and all I'm basing it off is the small group of friends I have and the seemingly endless politically correct multiculturalism supporting media I see in day to day life. But either way DonaldTrump, if you disagree with me and give evidence that most Australians don't support multiculturalism, I'll still disagree, because I'm a multiculturalism bigot.

So bring forth your evidence. If you can find something of value I'd be interested, simply to find out what credible statistical body goes around asking these kind of questions?

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm:
WTF? How do you figure this?  Huh

See top. You regard the protests we discussed in another thread as violent and thus not justifiable, and yet the cronulla 'protest' was violent and yet justifiable.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #104 - Mar 16th, 2007 at 5:10pm
 
Quote:
You can't expect other people to come up with heaps of evidence to back up what is obvious when you can't provide any evidence to back up your counterclaim, which flies in the face of available evidence.


Quote:
So bring forth your evidence. If you can find something of value I'd be interested, simply to find out what credible statistical body goes around asking these kind of questions?


Right...

Quote:
NINEMSN POLL
Should migrants who don't observe Aussie values be kicked out?
Yes – 42832
No – 5702
Source – http://ninemsn.com.au/



Quote:
Peter Costello's comments on citizenship : Rate Costello's comments
Agree with them - 74%
Think they are divisive - 26%
Total Votes: 26274  Poll date: 24/02/06
Source: Ninemsn



Quote:
Monday, 17 April 2006: Do you think the new policy on asylum seekers is too tough?
Yes: 9243 (32%)
No: 19764 (68%)
Source: Ninemsn



Quote:
Do you believe Australia 's policy of multiculturalism should be changed?
Of the 35,000 respondents, 93% replied “yes”
Source: A Current Affair



Would you like more?
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Quote:
Tolerance is the virtue of men who no longer believe in anything
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