Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 1^st, 2007 at 9:07pm:


Number one:

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 1^st, 2007 at 9:07pm:


Number two:

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 1^st, 2007 at 9:07pm:



Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 1^st, 2007 at 9:07pm:


Yes, there is no such thing as right and wrong and you cannot compare the existence of right and wrong to the fact that the sky is blue. Right and wrong moral values are human constructs that have no real place in nature outside our own little human world, all that matters in the real world is survival, but that is a rather cold position for a person to take, and it is not my point.

My point is that YOU are in no position to claim that YOUR belief system is superior to another persons belief system, to think that you are is the definition of arrogance as you so kindly provided. It is not about whether there are belief systems that are better than others, or which ones are right and wrong (if there is such a thing), it is about the fact that YOU would not have the gall to claim your particular belief system is superior to others unless you were an arrogant person... simple. It is a matter of modesty, I thought a true believer in god is constantly questioning his beliefs? You cannot be questioning your beliefs very much if you go around telling people they are wrong and you are right.

Oh please pender, please just realise that I am not attacking your faith, I am trying to help you to get along with people of different or no faith. Christians have been rubbing people up the wrong way on this board, don't you want to know how to stop that from happening?

Your question?

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Yes, of course it is. I thought you might have picked up on the fact that I answered this already through implication.

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No I believe personally that there is no absolute right or wrong, of course there is a *relative* right and wrong but that comes down to personal beliefs for each individual, I would not go so far as to say that you are in fact wrong (in relative terms) and thus inferior by believing otherwise. All things equal remember? To me, in my frame of reference if you will, you are wrong, superiority and inferiority are not implied by that statement, only my opinion, to you, you are right and I respect that. Expressing that I think your belief structure is missing the mark yet remains equal to mine does not mean I think I am superior to you. I may think you are wrong but I maintain that even if you are wrong that your right to believe what you will is equal to mine, in the end I always maintain the belief that I may be wrong, to me this is the only way to learn and grow as a person. So you see pender, no contradiction, you are still assuming that right and wrong imply superiority and inferiority, this is simply not the case. I am trying to tell you that so long as you go around spouting this to people around you, you are going to encounter tension with others thinking you are an arrogant christian for not accepting that there might be another relevant world view.

Just accept that you *may* be wrong, and that others just *might* be right, in RELATIVE terms. Do you get that? You are right, yes, inside your little head you are right, but trying to transpose your beliefs onto another person, that whole definition of right and wrong changes, you know? people are all different, I mean dam dude even christians vary in their interpretations and beliefs! You have to accept that if you encounter a christian that has a slightly different belief than yours, their belief is not inferior because of that now is it? Nobody has true conviction in their beliefs if they cannot question them from time to time. If you assume you are correct, and don't even know of alternatives (and you cannot without first assuming you may be wrong) then how on earth can you be sure you are correct?

I am trying to help you to understand non christians and prevent you from getting them upset through this insensitivity that many christians (and other hard line believers) seem to possess. These things I talk about apply to people of other faiths as well as those with none. My point is to have respect for all belief structures and stop saying yours is superior. Its really simple pender, just stop saying your belief is superior and everyone gets along. I am trying to show you some diplomacy, don't alter your beliefs, just alter your language when talking with others. Why is that hard?

Feediver this is not about what a person believes or disbelieves, this is about how you communicate that to others. Sure I've gone too far in the other direction but I have been trying to point out to pender what it is like on the other side of the fence.

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Of course they aren't, but my point is the way in which you communicate your faith to others will determine how they view you, if you don't want people to think you are arrogant, then you must voice your beliefs in a way that shows respect for theirs.

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This point seems to be lost on the hard line christians in my opinion... sorry hard line anything to be fair. And yes sometimes you do have to preface certain things with "I believe" if you want to communicate without upsetting each other, PARTICULARLY when it comes to faith based statements.

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Fair enough if that is what you believe, but I have known many christians who think that questioning their beliefs is an important part of understanding them. I think this is true for anything.

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Bible quotes? Spurious statements about what beliefs are right wrong and superior? You seem to be missing my point here freediver, I am trying to explain WHY people are getting so upset by this and WHY people get so upset about this stuff in general. It seems funny to me that some christians are STILL missing the point...

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No I am trying to demonstrate to him, or anyone, how certain ways of communicating your beliefs can upset people who have differing beliefs. When it comes to contentious beliefs then yes it often is necessary to qualify statements if you don't want to cause tensions.

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Not at all. Somebodies right is another persons wrong, what makes either one superior outside of each respective personal frame of existence? To quote good old cap'n Jack : 'all that matters is what a man can do, and what a man can't do'. But hey this is just MY belief, go right ahead and disagree with me, just respect it if you respect me as an individual... this is what I am getting at.

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Why? I am trying to point out that in relative terms, ie inside another persons point of view, he may indeed be wrong according to that other persons point of view. Exactly what is wrong with simply accepting that other people will view your beliefs differently? Isn't pender's entire argument that his point of view says that myself and others are wrong for being agnostic?

This is my entire point right here: if you want others to accept your point of view as relevant, you must first accept their point of view as relevant, from whatever relative position (ie: you believe what you want, I believe what I want).

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And yet still I have met many christians who believe that questioning their own faith is an important part of having that faith and strengthening it.

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 7:26am:

True. However many agnostics take issue with christians using the open forum to push their ideas. I don't go round stopping people in the street to tell them there is no god, ordinarily (without provocation) I wouldn't be talking about my beliefs toward christianity or faith on this forum either. This thread (if you've noticed) is a fairly isolated case of me pushing my non-christian views and I have never set out to discuss why there is no god or push MY personal spirituality on to people here. Why? If I did people would think I'm a nut and it is entirely NOT RELEVANT... funny that christians get away with it?

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 7:26am:

So does the same apply for everyone's reaction to Hilali? Its all their fault for getting upset not Hilali's? Remeber, all things equal... to me, the christian agenda is as provocative as Hilali's BS, so when is it fair to take issue with what someone pushes on you and when is it not? PARTICULARLY on a forum devoted to debate??

Now if you haven't noticed I am not one of the people who has been complaining fiercely about the christian presence, apart from a couple of spots where I dished out a bit of sarcasm (in good faith) I am not until now getting up about it. Only in this thread have I been trying to be a sort of mediator between the christians and everyone else by explaining what gets peoples backs up.

I swear if an atheist or agnostic person, or Muslim Hindu or Jew for that matter went around to a bunch of christians carrying on saying there is no god, or that they have superior views, in every conversation the christians were having about their christian stuff, the christians would react in exactly the same way, probably worse... the thing is atheists don't tend to do this... You don't even need to isolate the group to christians, take any group of people of mixed faith and no faith, walk up to them and start telling some of them that you have superior views, but hey its all OK because its just your 'faith' to have superior views, you are going to upset them... it is simple! If you DON'T want to upset them, you chose not to voice certain things in the name of diplomacy...

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 7:26am:

Sure it is... when someone asks. With christians it tends to get beyond 'sharing' and into the realm of marketing. I get so many christian views shoved down my throat all the time, they knock on my door, they preach at the local uni, they preach in public places where nobody asked, they have advertisements on the bloody TV (tell me thats just 'sharing'?), and they preach here on this website. This is not sharing in good faith, this is pushing an agenda.

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 7:26am:

I always got it, I know pender views my beliefs differently, I am trying to explain why he should to stop telling everyone his beliefs are superior. I don't even care if he thinks otherwise, but he says it in the public forum, gets burned for saying it (rightly) and then doesn't understand what he did wrong, thinking it he is innocent because of his good and pure faith. Well the thing it has nothing to do with faith, it is about not going around telling people you have superior views to them. Its called diplomacy. If you ARE going to tell people your views are superior, at least accept that your arrogance is responsible for upsetting them, at the very least!

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 7:26am:

I never said it was, but I do accept his views as relevant... What I do not accept is that carrying on about the superiority of your opinions is all good and pure because you are christian. BS I say! Christian or no, you tell someone your beliefs are superior to theirs and you are guilty if they get upset about it, no two ways about it. I am prepared to wear this charge when I upset people during arguments, as anyone should, just don't use faith as an excuse to wash your hands of diplomacy.

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 9:14am:

I'm telling you it annoys me? I'm telling you I know many people who get very annoyed by this.


freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 9:14am:

Now that has to be argument for arguments sake? If Hilali thinks he is not responsible for upsetting people with differing views he is kidding himself, absolute lack of diplomacy coming from that man.

Are you trying to tell me that diplomacy is not relevant? that the onus falls on the individual to not take offence to offensive language?

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 11:52am:

No, I am trying to point out why it is inherently offensive to tell somebody you have superior views to them because of your faith... are you even reading what I wrote?

What is not justified about taking offence when someone comes and tells you your views amount to sh!t because you don't believe in the same stupid little book that they do? Is it not offensive for me to prance into a church and begin telling people that there is no god?

I will repeat myself to make it clearer if you need me to:
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What on earth is not justified about taking offence to having religious views shoved down my throat everywhere I turn. I am sorry freediver but when some idiot tells me their views are superior to mine because they are absolutely 'right' only because their 'faith' tells them they are, coupled with the fact that I get christian BS forced on me at every turn, yes I get smacking offended alright? I find it offensive the christians use 'sharing the faith' as an excuse for sympathy in their blatant advertising persuits, I take offense when christians infiltrate our secular political process and work to prevent personal freedoms and hamper scientific advances.

Can you not see that a good many others on this board are getting offended as well?? Just because you sympathise with the christians, doesn't mean people are not offended by this sh!t.

I have not set out to make any particular comments about the the inherent superiority of my views due to my faith, I would not do such a blatantly arrogant thing because it would seriously offend people. I would thank those of different faith to extend the same respect to me, unless of course they are happy to offend others by pushing their views.

Just accept that people do not like being told that their views are inferior, based on some sh!t they don't believe, just accept that the behaviour of fundie christians upsets and offends many people, whether you agree with those peoples reasons or not. I disagree that there should be so much animosity towards muslims, but I fully accept that people are offended by their comments and actions.

Well pender, right now I don't know whether to laugh  at you or to take pity on you.

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Might I suggest, for YOUR well being, you stay the hell away from me when peddling your beliefs, I have one d@mn big dog that keeps the faith peddlers away from my door, take note if you ever swing by. Man I hate salesmen.

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I know what you have 'found' and its a godd@mn lie, a load of tripe and I am absolutely not interested, never will be, don't bother, give up now. This is an utterly offensive position for you to take.

I already live a life of fulfilment beyond YOUR wildest dreams, one that is not constrained by an externally imposed set of values that I had no part in defining. I am free, you are the one who is constrained...

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Except that you are simply offending people and achieving nothing...if you don't like pushing your agenda down peoples throats, don't bloody do it! I have known a good many christians that do not feel they need to impose their beliefs on everything around them in order to have their faith, take note!

So we are clear then. You don't give a d@mn about offending others, so long as you can peddle your wares? Nice religion you have there pender, real nice.

This is it, christians just do not get it do they? utterly incapable of getting it through their manipulated heads? How would you react pender if the shoe was on the other foot so to speak? How would you like me coming into your church and preaching paragraphs from the god delusion? How would you like me knocking on your door and trying to push godlessness or devil worship on you and your family?

This is just an absolute load of BS, as always when talking to ignorant christians. This is all it comes down to, after all this you simply acknowledge that you are willing to offend others simply to push your agenda, and yet no doubt you would cry bloody murder when the tables are turned (*cough* Muslims *cough*). As always, hypocritical sh!t. But no pender, thank you for admitting to the true nature of your pyramid scheme, sorry faith...thank you indeed for the insight. Have your fairytale pender, just keep it the hell away from me.