Actually Freediver makes some good points.  I am neither for or against the Muslim people as long as they adhere to our laws.  Unfortunately they've had some bad publicity and haven't really helped their cause by having Sheikh Hilaly as their leader.

But the problems really stem from our Federal Government who has allowed the word "multiculturalism" to become abhorrent by allowing Bush's slogan "War on Terror" to apply to Muslims and throw them all in the same basket as terrorists.

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Where? 

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Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.


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I'm an anti-Islamist.


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They've had 'bad publicity' for the last 1300 years. It's not merely 'bad publicity' mantra, it's Islam itself. 


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I agree that a lot of stupid people tend to actually say this, mantra. But if you look at the religion closely, they are not compatible with western civilisation... in the long run...    Short term... perhaps. I insist that you buy a copy of the Quran, put a bit of study into it, and try to understand this religion for what it is, mantra. Strong-minded people can push aside politically correct leftist dribble and find out the truth for themselves.


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Freedom of what??? What does Australian society have that's so free that Muslims want that an Islamic country doesn't provide???

IS THIS THE 'GOOD' POINTS FREEDIVER RAISED MANTRA???

 


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And yet... you STILL haven't given ME examples of what 'freedoms' Australia provides Muslims that Islamic countries don't. What's a matter Freediver? Lack of knowledge on the subject? Jumping to your own politically correct conclusions? Judging a book by its cover? Typical. 


Sounds like FREEDOM choices to me, freediver. And pleeease don't give me this 'different choices' garbage. 

Muslims restrict Australians freedoms by banning certain things in certain suburbs when Muslims make up a majority.

Does 'father Christmas' sound familiar? In certain Melbourne suburbs, Santa Claus has been banned from being displayed in public.
In my local butchers, they've put a ban on pork, because it's deemed offensive by the Muslim minority.
In certain suburbs, Muslims intimidate women by taunting them publicy as 'Aussie sluts' because they're 'exposing their shoulders.'

In my opinion, freediver, THAT'S restricting freedom.  Or can you somehow prove otherwise?


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Ignorance is bliss, hey freediver?

Come back to me when you've got ACTUAL evidence or better yet, POINTS that back up your ridiculous argument. Until then, you've got NOTHING!

DT - I agree with Freediver's comments on freedom - where we demand freedom for ourselves, yet want to deny it to others - this makes sense.

Look I can see your point of view and in so many forums where Islam is discussed - the very strong anti-Islamic views come from those who have been affected in some way - ie lived amongst them, physically abused, gone to school with them, worked  etc. so I am not condemning those who are angry.

Unfortunately this is not a good topic for me and I should leave it alone, because I really don't feel strongly enough about it.  Annoyed sometimes - yes, particularly when as a minority group some Muslims play on the government's political correctness and use it to their advantage, but then so do other religions - especially one in particular - the Exclusive Bretheren.  Considering they are Australian born and bred, they are a sly, bigoted and regressive religion that would be better suited to 16th century Europe.

Other than that, I'm too limited on this subject to make a decent contribution.

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I can agree on that.
But my opinion stands that so-called 'freedom' is over-rated.

'Freedom' can mean anything depending on the country you live in. If the world was TRULY free, people would be free to take drugs, people would be free to murder anyone they liked and people would be free to rape and commit crimes. That's TRUE freedom.

'Freedom' is a term loosely used to describe many things and in my opinion shouldn't be taken too seriously

'Freedom' is what suits a society best. And as a 'so-called' free society, we should have the right to ban Islamic clothes if the majority (Australians) (No, I don't consider Muslims Australian) wished to do so.

We, as Australians, should be able to decide our own future. It's our so-called 'freedom' to do so.

I hope I've managed to raise a few points for you to think about. I think I confused myself a little bit with that bit of writing.


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Cool. That's all I want. Just acknowledgement. Not denial. Nor acceptance. I just want people to THINK about it.


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Fair enough. Not everyone is passionate about this topic. I actually think it's quite noble of you to not get involved in a topic that you don't know nor care about. Some people usually do otherwise, paraphrasing quotes off a politically correct article, or some garbage like that.


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I agree. There are definitely worse religions in Australia, but none so widespread as Islam. These religions should be dealt with.


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I've been to the central coast. Great place.

But when I think about those Islamic basterds moving to that area to pick up 'fully sick chix' effectively destroying the area like Bankstown and Lakemba, I truly feel sick to my stomach. 
I'm really sorry about Muslims destroying your city (Sydney), mate. 


Hence, Australians will keep relocating from city to city, trying to escape the Islamic plague until we have no cities left to run to. Then, GAME OVER.

Freedom of what??? What does Australian society have that's so free that Muslims want that an Islamic country doesn't provide???

For starters, to choose what they want to wear. The middle east is a good example of what happens when you allow people's rights to be taken away arbitrarily. They are very hard to win back, and there is always someone wanting to take away more of people's rights. You seem to be aware of this, yet you don't seem to comprehend that people would want to get away from that. Do you really think you can know what these people want without asking them?

Does 'father Christmas' sound familiar? In certain Melbourne suburbs, Santa Claus has been banned from being displayed in public.

I know plenty of non-muslim people who support that. Is it illegal to dress as Santa in public? I don't think so.

In my local butchers, they've put a ban on pork

Who put a ban on pork? As far as I know a butcher's is private property and it is up to them how to run their business. Something tells me it was the butchers who chose not to stock pork rather than them not being allowed to.

And besides, are these examples in any way relevant? Do they support your attempts to take away people's rights arbitrarily? You seem to think they do, yet most people would see them as demonstrations of how absurd it is to try to take away people's rights for no valid reason.

But my opinion stands that so-called 'freedom' is over-rated.

Isn't your greatest fear about muslims that they will take away your freedom? If so, why do you want to establish a clear precedent in this country?

If the world was TRULY free, people would be free to take drugs, people would be free to murder anyone they liked and people would be free to rape and commit crimes. That's TRUE freedom. 

Freedom cannot be absolute. Where one freedom infringes on another, society has to choose which freedom it values most. In most cases this is a simple process. For example, in choosing between the freedom to choose what to wear and the freedom to not be offended by other people's dress, our society usually chooses freedom to choose what to wear, especially if the 'offense' is baseless.

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Oh for the love of ... Thats my whole argument! Why are they here if they don't want to wear different clothes from their own country?... Oh, just forget about it!!!   You're clearly too bigoted on this topic to be reasoned with.

Can anyone else see the lack of logic in freedivers posts, or am I just crazy?


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And if they WANT to get away from that, WHY are they maintaining it here???

THINK freediver! They're living EXACTLY the same way here as they do in the Middle East. Their society DOESN'T infringe on their rights in the Middle East! In fact, it SUITS THEM! The only difference with our society and theirs is that our society gives them rights that they either DON'T WANT or TRY TO SPOIL FOR OTHERS.


Name just ONE of these MAGICAL freedoms that Muslims get in the Australia that they ACTUALLY put to use that they CAN'T get in the Middle East. You seem to be the expert, freediver.

ONE. That's all I ask, freediver.


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Oh okay genius, what DO they want then?

Freedom?   Pffft. Oh yeah, that 'argument' of yours has kinda been flushed down the toilet, hey?

I don't know 'what they want,' freediver. It could range from anything from the 'unique views' of Ayers Rock, to the 'dream' of having a 'gum-tree' in their backyard. -Although, these outcomes are HIGHLY unlikely. There’s nearly nothing a Muslim wants that’s uniquely offered in Australia that Islamic societies don’t provide.

What I know FOR SURE is what Muslims DON'T want.


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Yeah, and I know plenty of Muslims who draw pictures of Mohammed.  

It's self-evident that a majority of Australians don't support the banning of santa, as most are decent minded enough to be aware that it's harmless fun.

You're grasping at straws and it's showing, freediver.  


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It's up to them, of course. But was it a necessary thing to restrict ALL of us of pork due to a bunch of Muslims who decided to move into the neighbourhood? I say, no. The restriction of pork was a direct result of Muslims in the neighbourhood. Like to prove otherwise? Go ahead and fail.  

What? No comment about Muslims abusing Australian girls?  


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Yes, actually they do.


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That's one way to look at it. Or, a more likely outcome would be, 'Muslims who migrate here, shouldn't be acting like that, they should be acting like Australians instead.'
-It can go both ways.


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I never said it was my greatest fear.

I DON'T believe in 'ideal freedom.' I believe in SOCIETY freedoms. Every SOCIETY is different and people moving into that society should blend into that society. It’s simply common-sense. Either that, or conquer them and establish their own society through force.

And if we need to ban clothing to HELP immigrants fit into society and keep peace, so be it.


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Whatever.  
TRUE freedom is doing whatever the hell you want. End of story.

And if they WANT to get away from that, WHY are they maintaining it here???

They aren't maintaining it here. You are equating the wearing of traditional clothes with support of everything you don't like
(and they don't like) about the middle east. That is a lot of assumptions to make based on what people wear, and as far as I can tell you have made zero effort to find out if your assumptions are correct.

Their society DOESN'T infringe on their rights in the Middle East! In fact, it SUITS THEM!

DT, many of these women are from a society where the punishment for being raped is stoning to death. And you want to hassle them about what they wear! Do you really believe that it suits them to be treated like pieces of meat? I think it's reasonable to grant them a bit of leeway if they don't want to strip of to a bikini and go for a swim at bondi on their first day here. Our own ancestors took a long time to give up European traditions that have no place here, and still hang on to many of them against all reason.

Oh okay genius, what DO they want then?

I said ask them. There's no point asking me.

That's one way to look at it. Or, a more likely outcome would be, 'Muslims who migrate here, shouldn't be acting like that, they should be acting like Australians instead.' 

This may come as a surprise to you, but there is no one way to act Australian.