Australian Politics Forum - ISLAM [from thinking globally]

Gavin

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #45 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 8:44am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 19^th, 2007 at 7:40pm:

I have never heard a christian say parts were not in the original manuscripts.
So how come christans "got it wrong" when they personally knew jesus, yet muslims "get it right", even though it was written 500 years AFTER Jesus was here in the flesh ?

sprintcyclist, i actually looked up Mark 16:9-20, which skeptic noted above and according to my bible (which is the New International Version) there is commentary which states:

"The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20"

if we're willing to accept these verses are not in the original, then it is possible that christians "got it wrong" even though they personally knew Jesus. Especially when most of the New Testament was written after Jesus was crucified.

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« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2007 at 10:49am by Gavin »

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sprintcyclist

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #46 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 1:34pm

HI skeptic and Gavin,
How are you both ?

skeptic - yes, that is why I was careful to say I had just "flicked" through it, and had not read it all.
A good flick through does let me know quite a few things. Have you had a look at it ??
It is written by an unintelligent man and has no "relationships" or empathy in it.
There is no "flow" of a story or moral in it. It is extremist , the more the extreme action, the better.
There is no moral code in it.
I read not a word from Jesus in there. I did not say Jesus is missing from there, I said there is very little mentin of him.
It is mainly threats, laws, bloodythirsty acts.

gavin - There are a few footnotes like that in the Bible. Some of the older versions were translated with respect to the current king. ie, he would execute them if there was someting they printed that he did not like.
It is a sign of the transparency and honesty of the translators that the translators DO include footnotes such as this.
Within 2000 years and many translations, variations will occur. That is human.
If there would be NO variations, that would be suspicious. They are all referenced back to the original manuscripts and what was decided to keep there. It has not changed.
It is the human factor that varies, not Gods Word and the message given within.

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Gavin

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #47 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 1:41pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 20^th, 2007 at 1:34pm:

Within 2000 years and many translations, variations will occur. That is human.
If there would be NO variations, that would be suspicious.

i would disagree with that, the bible is supposed to be the unchanged word of God. so, it shouldn't change at all and should be preserved throughout time.

to have variations in a holy scripture, then u run the risk of changing God's words. and come to think of it, with the Mark 16:9-20 verses, if it wasn't in the original manuscript, then where did it come from? it can only be created by man. and if those verses are created by man, then the bible cannot be the word of God.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: Isn't it ironic? Reply #48 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 1:54pm I think the Christian philosophy was that it was done under God's guidance. The whole thing about the 'original' manuscript is moot as it was all written down by people at some stage after it happened anyway.
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skeptic(Guest)

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #49 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 2:14pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 20^th, 2007 at 1:34pm:

skeptic - yes, that is why I was careful to say I had just "flicked" through it, and had not read it all.
A good flick through does let me know quite a few things. Have you had a look at it ??
It is written by an unintelligent man and has no "relationships" or empathy in it.
There is no "flow" of a story or moral in it. It is extremist , the more the extreme action, the better.
There is no moral code in it.
I read not a word from Jesus in there. I did not say Jesus is missing from there, I said there is very little mentin of him.
It is mainly threats, laws, bloodythirsty acts.

sprintcyclist, unless u have read the koran from cover to cover, then ur not really in a position to comment on what it does or doesn't have.

flicking through it isn't sufficient, besides r u sure that u didn't accidently "flick" through the parts about Jesus without noticing? i think that would more likely be the case, it doesn't make sense that muslims would see Jesus as a prophet, yet they wouldn't mentioned him alot in their holy book. that is kind of like the bible not having mentioning Moses or Abraham (i.e. prior prophets).

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zoso

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #50 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 2:16pm

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2007 at 1:54pm:

I think the Christian philosophy was that it was done under God's guidance. The whole thing about the 'original' manuscript is moot as it was all written down by people at some stage after it happened anyway.

And constructed by a council of men. Men who had a vested interest in maintaining a church.

I'm no expert... reaaaly far from it, but every single quote I hear from Jesus freaks sounds to me like he was trying to get people to circumvent the whole institutionalised church bit. I really don't get the impression that setting up a christian religion was his intention... But maybe thats just me. The bible is the word of men, good bad or other is irrelevant.

Jesus had a remarkably similar philosophy to Gandhi the way I see it. Anyway, enough I shouldn't even open my mouth in religious conversations...

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48816 At my desk.	Re: Isn't it ironic? Reply #51 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 3:04pm Why not? Jesus seems like a bit of a hippy to me too. He did not seek power in a conventional sense, nor encourage his followers to.
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sprintcyclist

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #52 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 3:15pm

Hi Gavin, freediver and skeptic ,

Gavin - fair enough, you are allowed to disagree. God warned about adding or deleting words from His Bible. Yet another human failing He warned us specifically about, but we still went ahead and did it ??
If some parts were not in the original, it may have been added later. Perhaps I could "leave" those out as I read it ??
Thorough of the translators include ALL previous versions and to tell us which parts were not in the original. Very open, transparent and honest of them.
Certainly no deception involved.

Freediver - yes, written under Gods guidance and leading. Was written after or during the actual events.

Skeptic - given I saw few if any comments on Jesus, and no direct quotes from him at all, that ALL instructions were solely from mohammad I feel my comments are fair.
Feel free to do as I did. have a read through in a bookshop. Give us all your impression.

Freediver - I would agree that Jesus was "unimpressed" with the "religious" leaders of the day.
As he probably would be of today. There is a MASSIVE difference between "religion" and "spirituality". Guess which one we are meant to be - according to the Bible ??
IMHO - The Bible IS the Word of God, written and interpereted by man.
Ghandi was pretty good. I read a biography about him - "freedom at midnight", I think . Really good.
I also admire the buddhists for their renown peaceful ways.

God is bigger than a "religion" or a "church", in my thinking.
Feel free to open your mouth !!

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skeptic(Guest)

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #53 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 3:22pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 20^th, 2007 at 3:15pm:

Skeptic - given I saw few if any comments on Jesus, and no direct quotes from him at all, that ALL instructions were solely from mohammad I feel my comments are fair.
Feel free to do as I did. have a read through in a bookshop. Give us all your impression.

u saw few comments about Jesus when u "flicked" through the koran, i.e. u didn't read it.

if i wanted to know about a religion, i would actually read their religious text, not just flick through it, be it the Torah, Bible or Koran.

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zoso

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #54 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 4:07pm

Quote:

u saw few comments about Jesus when u "flicked" through the koran, i.e. u didn't read it.

if i wanted to know about a religion, i would actually read their religious text, not just flick through it, be it the Torah, Bible or Koran.

Unless of course you are a follower of Kabbalah! Grin

All you need to do is TOUCH the words! PRAISE the LORD! Grin

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sprintcyclist Ex Member OzPolitic Gender:	Re: Isn't it ironic? Reply #55 - Mar 20^th, 2007 at 4:10pm Hi skeptic - I just had a thought. I have never seen direct quote from Jesus from the koran. Have you ? They are all from mohammad.
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skeptic(Guest)

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #56 - Mar 21^st, 2007 at 8:15am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 20^th, 2007 at 4:10pm:

Hi skeptic - I just had a thought.

I have never seen direct quote from Jesus from the koran.
Have you ?

They are all from mohammad.

Of course you haven't seen a direct quote from Jesus in the koran, u only "flicked" through it, rather than reading it.

Like i said before, if i wanted to know about a religion i would read their religious books entirely. flicking through it for a few minutes while in a bookstore doesn't make me an expert on the religion.

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Gavin

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #57 - Mar 21^st, 2007 at 8:57am

Quote:

Of course you haven't seen a direct quote from Jesus in the koran, u only "flicked" through it, rather than reading it.

not just that, it could be that sprintcyclist is looking for Jesus quotes as stated in the Bible and looking for identical quotes in the Koran.

but as we mentioned before, some quotes in the Bible weren't in the original manuscripts and therefore may be a fabrication, i.e. they (whoever wrote the bible) may have attributed some quotes to Jesus that he didn't really say. Therefore, the quotes from Jesus as stated in the Bible may differ to those in the Koran, hence the reason sprintcyclist probably hasn't noticed it.

for example, u wouldn't find a quote in the Koran along the lines of "Jesus said: I am the son of God", since muslims don't believe that. they see Jesus as a prophet of God and they don't worship him as the Son of God or God himself.

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« Last Edit: Mar 21^st, 2007 at 9:34am by Gavin »

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sprintcyclist

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #58 - Mar 21^st, 2007 at 10:57am

Hi sheptic and gavin,
How have you both been ?
Skeptic - yes, you have said that before. No need to repeat yourself. I have researched muslim stuff a bit and did have a look at the koran. Unjust to base my thoguhts on jsut what others say.
I am not an expert in muslim stuff, but know a bit about it.

Gavin - I saw few if any mentions of Jesus in the koran. Nor has a muslim ever given me a quote about him. They are all from mohammad.
Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, fleetingly.
yes, it is possible due to the honesty and transparency given in the Bible to assume some parts were not in the orginal scripts. It shows the versions are related directly back to the original maunscripts and have also taken into account other versions of the Bible since then.
Much better than learning aramic, hebrew and ancient greek.
Pretty naughty of someone to add them later if that is what happened!!

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skeptic

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Re: Isn't it ironic?
Reply #59 - Mar 21^st, 2007 at 11:18am

sprintcyclist, you mentioned before that u haven't read the koran and have only "flicked" through it. if you haven't read it from cover to cover, then u can't really make comments like "Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, fleetingly." How do u know when u haven't read it entirely?

In other words, u aren't really in a position to comment on the extent Jesus is mentioned (or not mentioned) in the Koran since u haven't read it.

I know i'm repeating myself here, but that's because your still not getting it, so i have to repeat it. I'm obviously hoping that u will understand after reading the same points over and over, maybe it's just taking some time to sink in.

I hope u understand now.

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