I agree..

Goes over the top..Rediculous actually. They should be doing a course teaching them how to adapt to our way of life shouldnt they?

How can this be helping race relations in Australia ?

Here is 1/2 an email I was sent.

History shows us what happens when good men do nothing. Let alone teaching bosses to be subservient. That is exactly what muslims want. islam means submission.


"A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War Two owned a number of large industries and estates.  When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

"Very few people were true Nazis "he said," but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools.  So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen.  Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.  My family lost everything.  I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.

Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant.  It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.  The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.

It is the fanatics who march.

It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.

It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave.

It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour kill.

It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.

It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals.

The hard quantifiable fact is that the "peaceful majority" the "silent majority" is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia comprised Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people.  The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population, it was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a warmongering sadist.  Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery.  Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:  Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.

Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs , Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold; we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email, without sending it on, can contribute to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.

So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on!!  Let us hope that thousands, world wide, read this - think about it - and send it on.

Here is the other 1/2 of the email.

freediver - do you realise what happens to nonmuslim people in a muslim state ?
Amongst other things they have to pay an extra tax. What apppens ot your business then ?
Wher are the muslin designed cars ? Where is their ingenuity, artistic flair, entreprenuaral spirit ?
Yep, all crushed under a dogmatic false faith.





"ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ"
By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez(*)

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.

And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.

I was just wondering if anyone has had experiences with loud Muslims in their local libraries.

In my library, there are large groups of them that enter and have no regard for the simple cultural practice of shutting the hell up in the library. I don't know whether it's just their culture, or whether it's blatant ignorance of the rules.

Can someone in this forum shed any light on the subject?

-What bothers me thoroughly though, is the way the librarians do nothing about it, because they're scared they will 'offend' someone or break some sort of law if they approach them. The politically correct garbage is rife in my town.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 9:14pm:


I'll probably just tell them to shut the hell up. If they continue, I'll complain officially to the library desk, and if this continues, I'll go the local media. That would make quite a juicy story for A Current Affair perhaps?  Further tainting their 'peaceful' community.

Hi Donald,
Pretty good logical thinking there about telling them yourself, then asking the librarians.

In all truth, they are probably just normal young people who happen to be muslims enjoying themselves, albeit where they should be quiet.

Of course, if you feel in any way "cautious" due to the actions of some other muslims or what you may think you have overheard ..........     A different response may be prudent.

An official complaint in a typed letter has MUCH more weight than an emailed one.
An emailed one can be deleted. A real letter sits on someones desk till something is done about it.
Esp to a local newspaper.

But really, they are prob just young folk being young folk. A quiet whisper and "shusshing" sign over the lips is prob the best.

A few words there pounced out to me.

"patterns", and "very loud"


islamists are trained, so will form patterns.
islam is about quenching questioning, growth etc etc etc.
Very loud discussions in learning areas stop learning.

I would most certainly make official complaints simultanously to the libray, who runs (funds) the library and a few local newspapers. Citing your reservations about confronting these obviously muslims people, given the current circumstances.
Without a doubt.

Good intelligent obsertavtion Donald

Hi Donald,

Just had another flick through your initial posting .

"simple cultural practice of shutting the hell up in the library", it is not just a cultural practise.
People are quiet in a library as it is a place of learning. learning from a bookis best done in a quet atmosphere.  It is a silence out of respect for education,learning and advancement.

These people are against education, learning and advancement. Hey, same as all islam countries !!

Fancy that ??              Accept it, or report it.

Good idea freedive, we should disrupt their quiet study/prayer times and places.

Thanks

So you have something against Jews as well? There's a surprise 

hahahah, never looked at it that way .   
I thought he was a wannabe jew. Just was too unintelligent to "make the mark."

Jews are REALLY sharp. Really hard to do business with. Sharp as a tack, won't give at all.
No wonder they run many large financial institutions.

IQSRLOW wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2007 at 11:01pm:


Yes he was.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2007 at 10:54pm:


so by that logic, Jesus was unintelligent as well given that Jews reject Jesus as being the Messiah.
funny that, and i thought u were a practising christian that respected Jesus.

Hi skeptic,

How have you been ?

Jesus confronted their "system" and claimed to be The Son of God.
Whom was prophesied about in the Old Testament.
The jews tried to trick him often about the law often. If they could do that, they would discredit his claim. Some of his answers even now I cannot imagine a reply to.
He fulfilled the jewish law and went further. He added compassion and mercy to the law.
They tried to stone him a few times due to him threatening their "religion." 

Mohammad tried to teach the Jew about jewish matters.  Intellectually they bettered him, he became quite someone to poke fun at before he left, his pride torn.

Sorry sprint but i gotta say this.  What is the credability of their stories if they (jesus and mohammed) wandered through the desert without food and water? Doesnt the human mind hallucinate and go crazy in the heat without these things?

Thats why im an athiest. I could walk out to the simpson desert and come back claiming i spoke to god and with todays knowledge of phsychology and the body, i would be declared insane and rightly so.

Here is an interesting word - Takfir.

Is is bad for one muslim to kill another.  Nonmuslims are immaterial, recommended to kill really.
But another muslim is a nono.
Takfir - means if someone says they are a muslim, but they aren't (by whose standards?), they can be killed. It is quite ok.
Takfir comes from the word kafir.

Hence, sunnnis and shiites can relish in their "religious" bloodshed.

hahahhaha

Is what they want ausnat !!!
Yes, I did see that.

Now tuning in my congas. man, congas are great. Had a lesson fron a guy at work, really helped me on the "mechanical" side to them.

Quote:


http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21889477-661,00.html


From a basterd to a basterd I guess.  

Just reinforcing the view that there is no such thing as 'Moderate Muslims.'

has anyone seen the Loose Change Sept 11 documentary? and yes, i know some people will write it off as a conspiracy theory, but i have to admit it raised some good points and i doubt we're been told the whole truth about what happened on Sept 11. although, i'm not saying bin Laden didn't do it, but there's evidence to suggest other parties were involved as well.

anyway, my point is the views of this new mufti isn't something new, alot of people (both muslim and non-muslims) believe that Osama Bin Laden was used as a scapegoat and there official Sept 11 story isn't exactly correct.

by the way, i noticed this part of the article:
"His stance flies in the face of bin Laden's own confession, aired in a December 2001 video."

i saw that so-called confession, the tape was found to be a hoax, refer to the following link:
http://www.mujca.com/hoax.htm

skeptic wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 10:32pm:


Not a very reliable website, is it skeptic? I wont be convinced until I'm shown a genuinely repectable site.

However, I move that we open up a new thread debating whether Osama Bin Laden was indeed behind the attacks in the first place.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 10:45pm:


True, the website is biased, but it has a link showing the confession tape - the guy in the tape that is supposed to be Osama Bin Laden doesn't even look like him. for one, he was darker, fatter and had different facial features.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Jun 13^th, 2007 at 12:19am:


Well, i don't think it's far fetched at all, before the video was found there wasn't any concrete proof that Osama Bin Laden was involved in the Sept 11 attacks (mostly circumstantial evidence) - this video was supposed to be the "smoking gun".

Anyway, have a look at the pics urself and tell me if u think the guy looks like Osama Bin Laden. I personally don't think he does - there's are quite distinct differences, the main one being that the guy in the video was fatter & had darker skin.

9/11 Conspiracy put to death...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168034904

freediver wrote on Jun 13^th, 2007 at 3:23pm:


that topic is talking about the conspiracy theory regarding the collapse of the twin towers.

i was referring to the Osama Bin Laden confession tape, has anyone else seen it? there's a link to it in the website i posted above. i don't think the guy in there looks like Bin Laden - would love to hear other people's thoughts.

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=africa&item=07052314384...

Quote:


Is this the answer to Australia's Islamic problem? This initiative in France shows that the idea isn't completely nutty, nor a pipe-dream.

Daughter strangled with shoelace for 'honour'
By Michael Holden in London
June 12, 2007 07:51am
Article from: Reuters
Font size: + -
Send this article: Print Email
A KURDISH man was convicted in a London court overnight of murdering his 20-year-old daughter in a so-called "honour killing" after she left her husband and fell in love with another man.
Banaz Mahmod was strangled with a shoelace in her home in London, her body was stuffed in a suitcase and taken some 120 miles (190 km) to the city of Birmingham, where it was buried in the back garden of a house.
Mahmod Mahmod, 52, ordered his own daughter's murder with the help of his brother Ari Mahmod, 51. The killing itself was carried out by their associate Mohamad Hama, 30, and two other suspects who are still at large, police said.
The court had been told that Banaz had been forced to marry an Iraqi Kurd when she was 17 but the relationship collapsed. She returned to live with her parents in 2005, later falling in love with Rahmat Suleimani.
Her family decided to kill her because they believed the relationship had brought dishonour on the family as Suleimani was an Iranian Kurd and not a strict Muslim.
Banaz's body was found in April 2006, months after she was killed.
Honour killings were almost unheard of in Britain until a few years ago but police and prosecutors now estimate there are about a dozen such murders a year.
Campaigners say that the issue was misunderstood and that the authorities had been unwilling to get involved for fear of upsetting cultural sensitivities in minority communities.
Banaz had contacted police a number of times before her death, saying her life was at risk, but no action was taken.
An inquiry is under way into the police handling of the case.
"I don't think I have loved anyone as much as I have loved Banaz," Mr Suleimani said in a statement. "She was my first love. She meant the world to me."
Mahmod Mahmod, Ari Mahmod and Hama will be sentenced at a later date along with Pshtewan Hama, 26, who admitted perverting the course of justice.


http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21891623-954,00.html

I did not say that at all gavin.

I did say i am not surprised they do that.  Are you ?

Gavin wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 12:58pm:


I think perhaps Gavin ,Sprint never meant to defend Muslims in this practice..

I think the post is a matter of personal interpretation by the individual reader.

Sprint has never been an advocate of violence toward anyone let alone women.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 3:30pm:


okay, personal interpretations it is then, so whenever i see an article about a christian committing a crime, then i can simply assume that his religion allows it. 

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 3:39pm:


so based on that, i take it u have a quote from the Koran to support a guy killing his daughter??

if so, please share. and please don't post other irrelevant quotes, just one that supports a guy to kill his own daughter.

Ausnat wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 4:23pm:


AusNat, people do bad actions for a variety of reasons, religion is sometimes a factor but other time it isn't.

so just because a muslim commits a crime it doesn't mean his religion condones it, just like the same way if a christian or jew commits a crime, it doesn't mean christianity or judaism says it's okay.

but the issue is different if there is a quote from their religious text that says it's okay, i asked sprintcyclist to show me a quote to support a guy killing his own daughter. if he can't provide that, then u can't blame the guys actions on his religion. 

Ausnat wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 4:41pm:


if honour killings are an acceptable practice in Islam, then i would like to see the quote from the Koran that supports it.

Quote:


but what if their actions are different to their religious teachings? why blame the religion then?

say for example, a christian guy committed adultery even though christianity says adultery is a sin - does it make sense to blame christianity and say it allows adultery because it's followers commit it? obviously not.

Gavin wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 4:45pm:


So if I manage to dig up a quote, Gavin, would you accept that we're right and you're wrong?

Well... I can find a truckload of evidence that a man has every right to kill his wife if he commits adultery under Islam. After all, thousands of women are killed each year in Muslim countries...including 'civilised' ones like that of Turkey. But the whole 'daughter killing' thing may be a little trickier and too specific to dig up at this stage.

Ausnat wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 5:55pm:



This is fascinating ..do go on..

There all kinds of crimes committed against women in Arab countries , not all Arab countries though...but without any further reading on the subject, Id say its a basic lack of respect for women , no value placed on them as a worthwhile members of society.

Be very interesting to see where and why this attitude came about in the beginning...regarded as  sexual objects and completely disposable.In some countries women are revered for their capacity to create  life and have a completely different standing within their commnuity and religion.

How di this come about and how did they reconcile and incorporate this into their koran..ie:religion?

A lot of Muslim women , although not alone, face unspeakable cruelties..women in Rwanda and Ethiopia other countries fair little better.

AusNat:

In islam, its accepted practice.

Prove it.

Then the race and culture are to blame. Same shite differnt smell.

So Islam isn't to blame? It's not like you to acknowledge non-religious causes.

Christians used to burn 'witches' at the stake. That doesn't mean Christianity allows or condones it. Grasping for the simple answer will just give you the wrong answer.

sprint:

What hilali says is what the koran says.

Does Hilaly say to kill your daughters of they dishonour you? I've read a lot of his comments to the media and from what I can gather I'm pretty sure he would oppose this.

Watch documentaries about Afghanistan, saudi arabia, iran and pakistan.

That's your proof? Watching documentaries about countries to learn about a religion?

Oh i acknowledge it alright, Arabs, indians, Africans etc of any faith are hideous people in relation to the treatment of women.

The race thing - do you really think a person's genetics can cause them to kill their daughter? Wouldn't that be a rather difficult trait to pass on? I know you are a believer (in evolution that is) so you should be able to understand my confusion.

The race thing is a total crackpot theory. Plenty of people have tried to prove it. They have all failed. I agree that culture is a cause. Religion I am still highly doubtful of, given the tenuous nature of the links you lot have tried to make.

I dont have to base these theories on anybody else. i have my own brain.
What have the Blacks of Africa invented?
The wheel? NO
Iron tools? NO
Did they invent modern cultivation? NO
Did they start the industrial revolution? NO
Have they sailed vast distances in ships with the view to explore? NO
Did they build vast civilizations? NO
Did they ever discover modern medicine? NO

I could go on.

AH yes the list of countries. proof is there.

AH yes the list of countries. proof is there.

That is not proof. That is one of the most basic logical fallacies - the association fallacy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/logical-fallacies.html#association%20fallacy

Freediver, it isn't a total crackpot theory. 

Yes it is.

Jared Diamond does a pretty good job in "Guns, germs and Steel." It's a very interesting book. No doubt there are plenty of competing theories.

DT, it is consigned to the history books. History tends not to remember the great failures, but it is common knowledge that attempts to prove that genetics is to blame for these things have been made and have failed. I am not going to go to any effort to prove something that is already well known. I'm sure the information is available if you are actually interested enough to look into the original sources.

DT, there are more than enough people around with an interest in proving racist theories to do it if it could be done and more than enough market to make 'successful' research commercially viable. It can't. If it could, you wouldn't be relying so heavily on the association fallacy and conspiracy theories.

Sure DT, if you turned out to be right. Coming up with something that goes against the mainstream view is always risky, but has huge rewards. If there was anything in it, a few sackings like the one you highlighted would have no chance of keeping it under wraps. What you don't realise is that people used to think like you do. There was no risk in studying it and people did study it. They came up with nothing of value. It was the notion that race was not a factor that had the real struggle for acceptance in academic circles and which had to prove itself. A study which aims to show that there are no differences is no different in terms of it's contribution to science than a study that aims to show that there are differences.

What universities don't tolerate is people trying to waste their funds on something that has already been done to death. If you put in the hard yards and came up with something new to test or a more refined test, there would be a university somewhere in the world willing to take you on, even if just to prove that race is not a factor.

This AN,

Is my quote.




oceanz wrote on Jun 13^th, 2007 at 5:02pm:

Observe everyone... this is freedivers new and improved alternative view of history/society. Politically correct and emotive to the core... without a shred of evidence to back up his claims.

No DT it is just common knowledge. I am not going to investigate every conspiracy theory that comes up on the internet, even if it is a nasty one. If you want to make a case that everyone else has been mislead, you come up with the evidence.

Yes... to consider that there's 'no such thing as race' was once considered a 'new and groundbreaking' theory, freediver.

I've never heard of that theory. Sounds like a way to redefine race rather than a meaningful contribution.

But so was communism. Communism was soon proved wrong as this stupid 'no race' bvllkrap will. 

LOL, because communism was proven wrong so will this? You do realise that people lived in socialist socities before modern capitalist economic systems sprung up, don't you?

It's taken the full circle. Now considering the DIFFERENCES between races are 'new and groundbreaking.'

I thought you said no-one was interested?

It's a well-known fact that most communists and socialist party members are 'academics' at Universities... and have been since the 1950's and 60's. 

DT, the maori article was a storm in a teacup. They found a gene that was present in 30% of Europeans and 60% of Maoris that the researcher even admitted only had a small influence on behaviour. The researcher was not fired and gained a lot of publicity over it.

You're one lazy little worm, aren't you freediver?

No DT, I just have priorities. Busting dodgy conspiracy theories is not one of them.

Laugh it up dickwad. It's true.

No it isn't. It's absurd.

Quote:

Hi freediver - to repeat my question.
How do YOU account for the list of standards of living I posted ?

I came from new zealand. yes, maoris are renowm for their aggression. Is one of the reasons I left.
Don't know if it was due to their economic status. they are a warrior breed, as in their history.
Hence they are overrepresented in aggressive games. eg rugby league and union.
Somewhat unlike aborigines.

Ausnat wrote on Jun 14^th, 2007 at 8:17pm:

 

Do you have Aboriginal relations Aussie?And why are you so angry at them? Indigenous people, you , me , all of us are descended from the African race..you knew that didnt you? Scientific fact. You are related to 'Abos'-'Africans' etc...

Dont take my word for it though.

Quote:


The European, Aboriginal and African races are separated by thousands of years of evolution. Pretty big gap between us.


Quote:


For what it's worth... I don't think Ausnat has anything against Aboriginals... just that he's pretty much stating fact.

I don't particularly think Aboriginals have very civilised genes. IQ differences, zero civilisation over thousands of years, inability to cope with alcohol addiction, kind of says to me that Aboriginals aren't a very advanced people, genetically speaking.

Oceans_Blue...

In year 12 biology, we were taught that Australia was once filled with rainforests and mega-fauna.

There is much debate whether or not Aboriginals destroyed the rainforests and killed off the megafauna.

Is this not exactly the same as Europeans? After all, Aboriginals were never intelligent enough to record history... apart from dreamtime stories.


A similar story can be said with peoples from Africa.




Anyway... this thread is getting ridiculously off-topic.

Wanna discuss genetics v culture... start a new topic.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Jun 14^th, 2007 at 10:39pm:



my guest posting btw.

I thought  I WAS on topic...got to difficult..oh well?

Blah Blah Blah............. all men were created equal--------------  Sure,,,,,,,,

No Donald..

We are both right it is off topic and the topic was important.

Anyway have a great day..and Aus Nat..I think your grouse. Debate is debate and has nothing to do with how I feel about you as a person ok?   


You know you can pm me if you have anything you want to say.

Love Oceans.

Quote:


OMFG... what part of.... "You challenged my view" don't you get, freediver?

Well normally freediver if you enter a thread and challenge a viewpoint, I'd like to see some evidence rather than just sarcastic remarks.

When you challenge a viewpoint, you normally need evidence to back it up.

You entered this debate whether you like it or not. It's now your responsibility to counter. If you can't, then bugger off. You lost.


Quote:


Care to explain how?


Quote:


Right... so if you're not sure about the topic you're arguing, then why are you bothering?

Oh... of course... that's right... because it's 'common knowledge' that there's no such thing as race and that all the 'scientists' have already proven that race does not mean a thing.  Therefore, anyone who argues against it is a 'nutcase.' 
They used to say the same thing about the earth being round, jack-@ss.

-Care to name a few of these scientists, freediver?
-Care to show definitive proof that there is no such thing as race or that race has no effect on behaviour due to genetic differences? Perhaps a feel-good article by Oprah Winfrey? 

Do you believe everything you read in the newspaper, freediver? Something tells me you do.