Australian Politics Forum - Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool

pjb05

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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #285 - Mar 7^th, 2009 at 4:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 9:58pm:

PJ, no-one is suggesting that marine parks be used in isolation as a replacement for all of the management tools that are currently used. However, that should not be a barrier to your ability to compare marine parks and minimum sizes as fisheries management tools. I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand about this.

So why single out legal sizes, which are a small part of current fisheries management?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool Reply #286 - Mar 7^th, 2009 at 10:15pm Because they are so harmful to the fishery. Well, that's what most objective people think anyway. What do you think? Can you compare them with marine parks? Or just answer questions with questions?
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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #287 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 11:30am

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2009 at 10:15pm:

Because they are so harmful to the fishery. Well, that's what most objective people think anyway. What do you think? Can you compare them with marine parks? Or just answer questions with questions?

For 'objective' read uniformed/ ignorant. Unlike you I prefer to deal with reality. Legal sizes help restrict the ability of fishermen to catch fish. How is that harmful to the fishery? I'm not claiming them to be the 'ideal' fisheries management tool ( like you are with marine parks), but as part of a full suite of measures.

By the way as to answering question I have posed several and you have completely ignored them, prefering your own strawman argument of comparing marine parks to legal sizes.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool Reply #288 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 11:46am So how do you think minimum sizes compare with marine parks as a fisheries management tool? Do you not understand how they can be harmful to a fishery?
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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #289 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 11:57am

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2009 at 11:46am:

So how do you think minimum sizes compare with marine parks as a fisheries management tool?

Do you not understand how they can be harmful to a fishery?

You sound like a broken record, why are you being so obtuse? By the way, marine parks can be harmful to a fishery!

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool Reply #290 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 2:20pm It's a fairly straightforward request PJ. Why are you afraid to respond to it? Quote: By the way, marine parks can be harmful to a fishery! So make a comparison between them then.
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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #291 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 7:11pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2009 at 2:20pm:

It's a fairly straightforward request PJ. Why are you afraid to respond to it?

Quote:

By the way, marine parks can be harmful to a fishery!

So make a comparison between them then.

I have covered all the drawbacks of marine parks before FD. I think you are trying a greedy reductionism tactic by insisting on this comparison. I'm not advocating legal sizes a as an alternative to marine parks so I have no intention of making such an illogical comparison.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool Reply #292 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 10:04pm Yes PJ, you have gone on and on and on about the alleged drawbacks of marine parks. But for some reason you are unable to criticise other fisheries management tools. Asking for a comparison is not greedy reductionism. It is just asking for you to be consistent and objective.
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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #293 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 6:26am

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2009 at 10:04pm:

Yes PJ, you have gone on and on and on about the alleged drawbacks of marine parks. But for some reason you are unable to criticise other fisheries management tools. Asking for a comparison is not greedy reductionism. It is just asking for you to be consistent and objective.

How about you answer some of my recent questions/ points first. It's rather rude to demand how I reply and at the same totally ignoring my points and questions.

I'm not inconsitent at all - marine parks are a change to the status quo so they are the point of the debate. You are claiming them to be the ideal management tool and superior to all others - I'm not claiming that for legal sizes.

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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #294 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 9:50am

Quote:

I'm not inconsitent at all - marine parks are a change to the status quo so they are the point of the debate.

PJ, the status quo is equally a point of debate. So it is rather odd, if not amusing, that you refuse to compare marine parks with a current management tool like minimum sizes. You can't judge the value of a change by only considering the alternative option and refusing to compare it with current options. It makes no sense at all.

Quote:

I'm not claiming that for legal sizes.

Well, what are you claiming for minimum sizes? You don't seem capable of saying anything about them at all. Why is that? You won't even acknowledge the obvious harm they do.

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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #295 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 10:08am

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2009 at 9:50am:

Quote:

I'm not inconsitent at all - marine parks are a change to the status quo so they are the point of the debate.

PJ, the status quo is equally a point of debate. So it is rather odd, if not amusing, that you refuse to compare marine parks with a current management tool like minimum sizes. You can't judge the value of a change by only considering the alternative option and refusing to compare it with current options. It makes no sense at all.

Quote:

I'm not claiming that for legal sizes.

Well, what are you claiming for minimum sizes? You don't seem capable of saying anything about them at all. Why is that? You won't even acknowledge the obvious harm they do.

Unlike you I can think in more than one dimension. And I said did I not that they limit the ability of fishermen to catch (and keep) fish and so are an aid in protecting the fishery. You want to take the case of minimum sizes to an illogical extreme (as a debating trick) by viewing them in isolation and compring them to marine parks. You want to ignore the fact that the full suite of measures available work together to protect the fishery and the extent of each measure can be tweaked as desired for their effectveness as well as for consideration of the impact on stakeholders. You could if desired have no legal sizes at all and increase other measures to compensate, though this is probably not desirable.

Your pursuing this line so you can trot out your myth about keeping the runts and killing the breeders no doubt. I have already dealt with this several times.

PS if you find my replies amusing them you must have a small mind. I would point out that once again you have failed to respond to my request that you answer some of my questions.

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freediver

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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #296 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 10:24am

Quote:

And I said did I not that they limit the ability of fishermen to catch (and keep) fish and so are an aid in protecting the fishery.

Maybe, but you could say the exact same thing about every fisheries management tool, so it is pretty meaningless and is hardly a comparison between marine parks and minimum sizes. It's the sort opf thing you'd expect someone to say if they didn't actually want to say anything, like giving a dictionary definition instead of an opinion.

Quote:

You want to take the case of minimum sizes to an illogical extreme (as a debating trick) by viewing them in isolation and compring them to marine parks.

No PJ, I'm just trying to get your opinion on them, something you are going to unusual lengths to avoid.

Quote:

You want to ignore the fact that the full suite of measures available work together to protect the fishery and the extent of each measure can be tweaked as desired for their effectveness as well as for consideration of the impact on stakeholders.

No I don't want to do that either PJ. It's just that if you are going to tweak the use of marine parks or minimum sizes, you need to judge them. You need to consider each one individually and how it contributes to the total effect, not just throw your arms in the air and say it's too complicated because more than one management tool is used.

Quote:

Your pursuing this line so you can trot out your myth about keeping the runts and killing the breeders no doubt.

But it isn't a myth PJ.

Quote:

I have already dealt with this several times.

No you haven't. You are going to extrraordinary lengths to avoid giving your opinion on minimum sizes. You still are. You are more than happy to criticise marine parks, but you can't bring yourself to do the same for the alternatives. You clutch at straws to find a negative with marine parks, but ignore the obvious problems with minimum sizes.

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pjb05

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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #297 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 10:31am

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2009 at 10:24am:

Quote:

[quote]Your pursuing this line so you can trot out your myth about keeping the runts and killing the breeders no doubt.

But it isn't a myth PJ.

Quote:

I have already dealt with this several times.

No you haven't. You are going to extrraordinary lengths to avoid giving your opinion on minimum sizes. You still are. You are more than happy to criticise marine parks, but you can't bring yourself to do the same for the alternatives. You clutch at straws to find a negative with marine parks, but ignore the obvious problems with minimum sizes.

Yes I have, why don't you look at my recent replies to Yadda on the subject. Compare the quality of my arguments to your mindless chanting of slogans.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49572 At my desk.	Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool Reply #298 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 10:39am So why did you give such a banal definition of minimum sizes as a substitute for your opinion on them? Why don't you just repeat the relevant things you said to Yadda instead of giving pages and pages of silly excuses for not giving an opinion?
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pjb05

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Re: Marine Parks as a Fisheries Management Tool
Reply #299 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 11:40am

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2009 at 10:39am:

So why did you give such a banal definition of minimum sizes as a substitute for your opinion on them? Why don't you just repeat the relevant things you said to Yadda instead of giving pages and pages of silly excuses for not giving an opinion?

Actually I requested that you should respond to my recent posts for pages and pages, twit.

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