That's pretty arbitrary Kytro. How many beliefs do you need before it becomes a religion?

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:21pm:


I don't think there is an exact number, but it has to something cohesive and describe an entire world view, at least in my opinion.

Each religion is a way to approach life, and even belief in god wouldn't qualify as religion.  It's what you believe about god or lack of a god that makes a religion.

My religious views, for lack of a better word, would be acquiring knowledge - the point of existence to learn to grow and to understand.

Kytro wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 4:30pm:



That's what I did and after examining atheism I found it to be a religion as other religions are.

Well seeing the poppycock has been flowing, and some of the fifteen watters are blinded by their own luminescence, no matter how dim, I provide you with a good old cut and paste from another site;http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/atheismreligion.html

"Atheism is a religion", for some strange reason, is often used by theists to criticise non-believers. A couple of examples from my email and guestbook:

"Do you have a belief that atheism is true? If no, then you're lying, if yes, then you are acting on faith. If you don't believe in God, you must believe in something or someone else. An atheist doesn't simply lack positive belief in God. The atheist has positive belief in the non-existence of God."

"The Religion of Atheism is for the totally unrational person, which is why Atheists account for less that 10% of the population. There are Ulterior Motives to Atheism, namely : Admitting the obvious of an INtelligent Creator introduces accountability and someone who is bigger and more important than oneself ...and, it impedes on the present less than desirable and/or immoral (incl. sexually, in most cases) lifestyle that the Atheist has chosen for himself. Both of these can be summarized by Pride."

It seems odd for a follower of a faith to try to attack atheism by saying it is also a faith. I think the reasoning is that if atheism is a faith or religion, then atheists have no cause to criticise other faiths or religions. One flaw in this argument is that if atheism were indeed a religion, then theists would have no reason to criticise atheism being taught in schools as part of religious education, or even the setting up of atheist-run schools alongside Baptist, Catholic and Muslim schools.

Somehow, I think voices may be raised in protest should that happen. =)

Alternatively, the idea is that atheists are hypocrites for attacking the faithful when atheism itself is a result of faith.

However, the big problem is this :

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION OR A FAITH!

Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist.

As mentioned in the Introduction page, there is a subtle but important difference between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God". The first is a belief, the second is a lack of that belief. I don't know any atheists who "believe" God (take your pick, there are plenty) does not exist. All the atheists I know simply do not believe God does exist.

There is a big difference between positively believing that a thing does not exist, and simply lacking belief in it's existence. In many cases, atheists will say "That God does not exist", not because they choose to do so, but because, from the description of the God, it cannot exist due to contradictory attributes. In the same way that a square circle cannot (and therefore does not) exist, a God defined as (for example) all-knowing, yet cannot see into the future, cannot and does not exist because the definition is self-contradictory. If you describe your God with self-contradicting attributes which make it logically impossible, then I may safely say that such a thing does not exist as described. This is not faith - this is reason.

If someone asked you about unicorns, would you say "I believe there are no unicorns", or would it be more honest to say "I do not believe in unicorns"? These are two different answers. Nobody disbelieves in unicorns purely as a matter of personal faith.

Again, apply the same reasoning to the Gods of other religions. Example : if you are a Christian, do you believe the Hindu God Ganesh does not exist? Or do you not believe in Ganesh?

If you believe that unicorns do not exist, then may I say that you a member of the "No unicorns" religion? Is it a matter of faith that unicorns do not exist? Can I come along to your non-unicorn church with you tomorrow?

If you are a Christian, do you believe Ganesh does not exist? Why, then you must be a devout follower of the "No Ganesh" faith!

Do you see where this is going? [ Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but it's excellent for getting a point across. ]

If me not believing in your God is a faith, then you not believing in other Gods is an equal faith. How many Christians do you know who would say they do not believe in other Gods as a matter of faith?

If my atheism with respect to your deity is a religion, then your atheism with respect to other deities is also a religion.

How does atheism differ from religion and faith? Let me count the ways...
     
Religion
     
Atheism
Belief in God(s)
     
     
Prayer
     
     
Churches / temples
     
     
Holy Book / Scripture
     
     
Priests / religious leaders
     
     
Belief in supernatural (including angels / devils)
     
     
Miracles
     
     
Afterlife
     
     
Holy wars
     
     
Heaven / Hell
     
     
Lifestyle restrictions (dress, diet, marriage etc. etc.)
     
     
Belief without evidence (faith as a virtue)
     
     
Belief despite conflicting evidence
     
     
Supernatural origins of universe and / or humans
     
     
Murderous fundamentalist extremists
     
     
Annoying street / doorstep preachers
     
     
The soul
     
     
Regular ceremonies / acts of worship
     
     
Sin
     
     
Blasphemy
     
     
We are God's chosen people
     
     



Atheism is neither religion nor faith, but the happy freedom from them. Declaring it to be otherwise, sadly, will not make it so.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 5:18pm:


Yes, that's what it boils to.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 24^th, 2008 at 5:53pm:


some people said:
"It seems that most atheists are past needing to make absurd claims to justify their faith, but not all. Looks like religion must protect itself from other ideas if it is to spread successfully."

so mozzik, show how sharp you are. Can you cut through your own fat?

believe whatever absurd crap you want to tallo, no skin off my nose, just don't try and sell it to me, 'cause I aint buyin.
also, why put quotation marks around a composite of what I wrote, what ammad wrote, and which you changed?

Who is it supposed to be quoting, me, ammad, or you?

I suppose it doesn't matter, you have effectively made yourself wrong no matter who you meant.

Nice boy, but about as sharp as a pound of wet leather.