[quote author=muso link=1195014419/120#120 date=1227587734][quote author=locutius link=1195014419/105#117 date=1227585457]
Doesn't mean I do not have feelings that I can't wholely explain, like Love.
[/quote]
oxytocin and vasopressin. You want buy love?  I get you numba one price.  Only $20 for a millilitre. What else you want? Viagra ?
;D
[url]http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/[/url][/quote]

Nice picture but what are those yellow blobs? Are they Good or Evil? :-?

locutius wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 1:57pm:


There must have been something else going on here [the suicide guy in USA], that has not been revealed?

But, it is indeed sad, that something pushed this person, over the edge.



Quote:



locutius,

Some ppl's eyes are 'opened', others are not.

You say,

".....It all sounds to convieniently exclusive and political."

You say, "I simply do not believe in the existance of God."

I reply, I don't believe that there is a God.
.....my experience is, that there is a God.

"Prove it!"

I can't.

I know that i cannot convince you, or another person.
.....it seems that only God does that [reveals himself], himself.

Why that would be, i am not sure.

But in my experience, God is just, and merciful.
....but above all he is just.
....and i am confident, that, that will be revealed to all of us, eventually.



If you desire a relationship with God, go to the source.

John 4:24

If you want to find God, then God's advice [within the Bible] is very simple.
Seek him.
....i.e. read the Bible, and pray to him.

Deuteronomy 4:29
Psalms 119:2
Jeremiah 29:13
Romans 3:11
Acts 17:27






You speak of your empirical view of the world....

Dictionary,
empirical = = based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.


locutius,

Why do some ppl experience OBE's, while others do not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

Do you deny the validity of the experience of OBE's?
.....[i know a similar experience can be induced with hallucinogenic drugs.]

A lot of scientists, and other who have not experienced them, suggest they are just a 'mind bend', an illusion, and something which is not real.

Do they mean anything?
....in my experience, they have always been 'personal'.

I have experience waking OBE's occasionally.
.....[you can experience OBE's from within dreams, it is also possible to experience 'waking' OBE's. i've experienced both.]

No-one [especially those who have not experienced one,] a waking OBE can convince me, that they are an illusion, a 'mind bend'.

A waking OBE, feels much, much, real-er than this 'reality', believe me.

[And I am a person who is not on any medication, and i do not take recreational drugs.]





But, can i convince you, or another person, who has not had such an experience, of their reality?

No.

Does that invalidate the experience [for myself, and others]?

Absolutely not.

I have explored this problem [of personal experience] a little further, here....

All Aboard the Athiest bus
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225016818/10#10




OBE's....

2 Corinthians 12:1
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

athos wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:59pm:



Absolutely.






Mankind are clever.

I think that we have proved that we are clever, and resourceful.


I don't think that we can lay any claim yet, to being wise.

I think crocodiles make pretty good monsters. They are scarier than the Alien ones.

Let read this:

Eyedea and Abilities - Lyrics

[Eyedea]
If someone grew up in a cubicle as Plato once suggested
They would only know the cubicle and not the world outside it
And they wouldn't view the cubicle as something geometric
We only know it's a cubicle because we live outside it

Now the one inside the cubicle can't comprehend his measurements
Because measurements are models made up for and by observers
Relative to their position on the outside of the cubicle
Though understand objectively so they can study further

If I grew up in a cubicle the walls are in my universe
I have no knowledge of the entirety like the outsiders do
If you follow what I say and can swallow the powdered water
Close your eyes and open your minds, this one's for you

And the brain equals a cubicle we'll never think outside it
Now inside wanna try to tie a diagram to modify them
I'm there as a hybrid of a body of a pirate
Of a soul that can fly without control

Realizing the brain ticks at six billion signals per second

And most of hidden and not given to the senses
Whether to do a few futile primitive tools to perception
livin in a universal pool of first hand deception

The mind's job is to receive the signals
And block the ones out that coincide with imprinted symbols
That way the information you obtained is recognized
Reality is thinkable and comparable to space and time

It makes a map of the territory that gives us the gives us
The topic of the Copenhagen interpretation of modern quantum
Physics which states we don’t know the meal
We only know the menu that our brains tell us is real

We don’t know the rules of our heads
From inside these cubicles we can’t see the truth
No one really knows exactly what happens when we think
Therefore we can never really ever know anything

This is the consciousness revolution
You got the right to think
Don't think about it just do it
(repeats stanza til fade out)

For those of you that are not good at receiving information in lyric form, here’s the point: reality comes from within the brain, not without. The information coming to us from the eyes and other sense organs is first reconfigured in the brain as information, and then realized by us. The pathways that have already been established in our brain determine what new information we can process –the brain is always looking to relate the new to the old. There is no way for us to receive information without having that information altered by our own perception. According to quantum physics (dumbed way down a la What the Bleep do we Know?): The reality outside of us is formed and altered by what is already inside of us. Our POV as an observer determines that reality.

I could stop here, because what I’ve just proved is that we can’t really know anything. However, it is not what we know that I dislike, it is what we think we know.

But Yadda I don't expect you or anyone to try to prove in the existence of God. It cannot be proven and visa versa regardless of what Dawkins has to say about probability. Simply put, you either have faith or you don't. I do not, but I accept without any cost or animosity to my postion that you do believe. The only time I am ever likely to clash with a believer is when it impacts on my lifestyle, my society etc. My wife is a believer. She has a very strong faith.

I think it was Descartes that came up with an argument that I thought was the coolest of all and really appealed to me. It sounds good but is purely Metaphysical, and goes something like this. (Forgive me but it has been at least 15 years since I came across it)

"We are imperfect beings that inhabit an imperfect world, and yet we can concieve of a quality called perfection. That image is like a residue of the divine touch on everything. It allows us to know God'.

Something like that anyway.

I see the imperfect world as acting perfectly in accordance with the governing laws of the Universe. So a blemish is not flawed just different. It is us that provide the judgement that is based purely on an objects utility to us.

athos wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 8:44pm:




athos,

Interesting.

Talking of cubes, got me thinking.



I hope you enjoy this YOUTUBE mind-snapper....



Dr Quantum - Flatland
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4