No, yes. End.

Great thread.

No I believe they still believe in green policies and I have no idea what they are blaimng for Australia's greatest modern PM losing his seat.

Something in the water?

Aussie wrote on Dec 25^th, 2007 at 10:15pm:


Naaahhhhh, leave Horse alone, he loves to flog dead ones.

Good point!

Well DT, have they?

deepthought wrote on Dec 29^th, 2007 at 10:55pm:



"...Australias greatest modern P.M...."

Mate, did you know rust is a weakpoint?!?

deepthought wrote on Dec 30^th, 2007 at 6:19am:
 

What a shock for Australia........................duh.

Australia just turfed hayseed out, not only from Government.  His own threw him out of his own seat in favour of an ABC media tart backed up by a Union hack!!!!!

Time for a reality check, DT.

Probaby Hawke.....with a tad of Whitlam attached........because of China........[oh, yeah.....he did win the America's Cup.....personally, with his bare hands!!!.  Yeah, he did, I heard it on the radio, so it must be true.]

deepthought wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 9:27pm:



What......no mention of China???

The singular, most important thaing that exists for us, and probably the rest of the planet for the next 40 years or so.  Hawke took us there, fact.

Having a buggerer PM who speaks the lingo can't hurt too much, methinks.

deepthought wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 10:19pm:


You really are a low life.  bugger, I hope you get through Law and that some of my mates come up against you.....or better still, and more probable, in front of you, on the Bench.

Who was the first person to officially visit China as the current PM of Australia?

That'd be Whitlam. 

Hawke built upon it.

hayseed and Fraser might just as well stayed at home.

Was it Hawke who  first hosted the Chinese big cahuna in Australia?

Dunno.

.....but, at least Hawke had a tear to shed.

Oh, and it was Johnny who hosted the first Chinese Head Of State.  Relations with China were distinctly frosty after Hawke told his ministers they couldn't think for themselves and made China stand in the corner until it could behave.

Johnny normalised things.

When it comes to amazing PMs Johnny was the man.

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 4^th, 2008 at 3:47am:


I'm sure they (and you) will.  

History will judge Johnny as the greatest modern PM when the economy has crashed, unemployment has risen (it already is higher than the start of last year), interest rates continue to rise (today some banks announced a rise without any action from the central bank - the first time for over a decade), availability of full time jobs drop below part time ones (this already happened - it coincided with the election of a Liebor government) and so on and so forth.

With Johnny thrown away by the electorate the rot soon sets in and all Australians pay the penalty because some chose a Liebor Government over sensibility.

The wise ones knew interest rates rise under Liebor - today the reality struck home to the delusional ones who did not know what truth is.

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 4^th, 2008 at 5:42pm:


Who is responsible if not the current government?  Unemployment hit extraordinary highs under the last Liebor government but the coalition righted the wrongs.  Now Liebor is back expect the same conditions as we suffered before under Liebor. 

You're a freak, mate

No, freaks are the ones that want to ban fossil fuels because they have no understanding on how the world actually works...that would be you. DT is actually a realist. You would do good to pay heed to what he says instead of the blind rhetorical idiocy that you are so fond of spewing forth without a second thought

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 5^th, 2008 at 1:05am:


Am I a freak because I care about my fellow Australians welfare?  Because I tried to stop some misguided souls falling for Little Kevvy's rambling lies?   Alright then, I am one.

I voted Liberal.

Quote:


Lost the battle perhaps but I was always right to fight it.  

I was right about rising prices and interest rates, rising unemployment, rising industrial action and falling confidence.  And while there is little consolation in being right in a world of pain I at least prepared for it by minimising debt, investing heavily and whacking away reserves.  I suspect many are on  the brink and will soon go under.

I can survive in a well stocked fortress until the battle is to be fought and won.  And I can chuckle, as people like you oceans see that I was right.

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 5^th, 2008 at 12:44pm:


Then they never will be able to.  Interest rates hit a 30 year record low under Johnny.  If people can not afford finance at record interest rate lows then they will never be able to borrow.  Johnny made it possible for anyone with the capacity to make the payments easy with such astonishingly low interest rates, and what's more he made it possible for more people to have jobs than had had them in 40 years.

The conditions were right.  But you have missed your chance and you will not get it under Little Kevvy's Tyranny as interest rates rise without central bank action under Kevvy.  We knew that though which is why wise people made sure they were insulated against the horror of Liebor.

I voted Liberal.

Aussie wrote on Jan 5^th, 2008 at 5:46pm:


Either you could attempt a rebuttal or you could launch into a personal attack.

Oh that's right, you did the latter.  I expect that means your weapon is not loaded Sir.

Aussie wrote on Jan 5^th, 2008 at 9:17pm:


Everything I have said about the horror of Liebor is happening now - not in the future dude.

And you could bellow "It would have been much worse had hayseed won".  However you would be wrong.  History contains the proof you need.  You only need look over your shoulder.

Interest rates had been steadily creeping up long before the election and long before it was obvious the coalition would lose.

Acid Monkey wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 11:54am:


No history did not record that "we had the highest interest rates under JWH's tenure as treasurer".  Though Fraser certainly did get rates up there Johnny threatened to resign as Treasurer due to Fraser's awful leadership which resulted in disastrous economic conditions.  But Cheating still wins for the highest mortgage rates.  Of that there is no question.

But Cheating's punishing interest rates followed Cheating's clumsy fiscal policy.  After which he was also directly responsible for plunging Australia into an engineered recession to get the rates down.  There are no excuses for the horror of the previous Liebor Government.  This Liebor Government is aiming to repeat it all too.

The 'mining boom' which Kevvy blabs about does not exist in my opinion - but if, according to Kevvy, it does then why is the economy turning if the basis for the prosperity was always the alleged 'mining boom'?  He can't have it both ways.  He lies a lot.

deepthought wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 2:29pm:


I have already said that is because Keating removed the cap which then immediately raised the mortgage rate even higher to its true rate. The true rate which the cap restricted. The highest mortgage rate which you attributed to Keating should in fact be Fraser/Howard's.


deepthought wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 2:29pm:


The mining boom doesn't exist? How did you derive this opinion? So what has been happening in WA? Why has prices there risen considerably more than say QLD which has a smaller share in the mining industry? Why do you think that WA miners are paid a lot more than say QLD miners? Why has WA houses risen tenfold than houses elsewhere in the country? Are they an economy all to themselves? Of course not, but they have one thing which the rest of us don't - the largest share in the mining pie. If there is no boom then we should all be having the same inflationary effects as WA.

"He can't have it both ways" doesn't work in economics. You CAN have a mining boom and also an economic downturn. Any highschool economics student can tell you that it is multi-faceted. There are many variables involved, not just mining - primary production, technological innovations, manufacturing, consumer spending (which is higher in WA), credit debt, import debts, skill worker shortages, skill bleeding etc. The economy is not just about mining. Currently it has a lot of influence in our economy but we cannot rely on a mining boom to carry Australia forever. Now, we have other factors coming into play which is offsetting the benefits of the mining sector - US dollar downturn therefore, rising our dollar making it less attractive to overseas currency exchanges, drop in tourism due to the dollar, our exports become more expensive; US ecocnomy is on a verge of a crash due to Sub-Prime which will affact the world. All of these lead to an economic downturn. You are comparing one fact to another fact and then alledging that he is lying because the facts contradite. Yes, they contradite but that is economic chaos - and there is a whole science dedicate to that subject. You forget that even Costello said that an economic downturn is on the way. Is he lying as well?


deepthought wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 2:34pm:


You haven't answered my question about Labor policy causing banks to raise interest rates. So, I guess that your only and best answer is that the banks must be lying. But why would the banks lie? Please give me reasons why they would.

And while we are on the subject of lack of proof/answers = lying, what records showed that Howard threatened to quit as treasurer? I don't remember hearing/reading this in the media at the time. As far as I know this revelation came to light only when Howard himself "confessed" years later. Could he be "lying" to save his own economic reputation blaming it instead on Fraser holding him back? Are there proof beyond one man's word about a private conversation that was never recorded? One can play the same game as you.

Acid Monkey wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 3:47pm:


Income from the alleged 'mining boom' is a pretty small part of GDP.  In fact it is about the same as it has been for over two decades - about 5% of GDP.  This has been remarkably consistent since the 80s.  It is way less than it has been though.

In real dollar terms it is growing - but so is every other sector so it keeps pace with all segments of our Australian industry.  A 'mining boom' does not exist.

Banks are not reactive.  They spend a lot of money researching the future.  

Consider this.  Following the introduction of WorkChoices at the start of 2006 employment grew at a remarkable rate and unemployment hit lows not seen since the explosive 60s.  And most jobs created were full time - around 90% from memory.  

In November as Liebor wrested control from the coalition unemployment hit a high not seen since the beginning of 2007.  In November as Liebor wrested control from the coalition 80% of new jobs created were part time (compare this with 90% full time under the coalition).   Industry is not willing to take on full time workers with the threat of industrial action, a new industrial regime and the return of the 'unfair dismissal' penalty.

Banks act accordingly.  They don't wait until it is too late to protect themselves.  If I can see the writing on the wall don't you reckon the banks can too?

And there is ample evidence John Howard threatened to resign as Treasurer.  He and Big Mal disagreed on many things.  Perhaps you did not see it but it happened.  Only when John Howard made it in 1996 could he implement the things he always wanted to.  The results speak for themselves.

deepthought wrote on Jan 5^th, 2008 at 5:10pm:

The disposable income spent on the mortagage was higher under Howard.

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 8:25pm:


That is because house prices were higher.  But remember this - as house prices grew wealth grew, and as interest rates fell the investment in the capital grew.

Would you prefer it if house prices fell and people's investments were wiped out?  Hawke and Cheating did that to Australians when property crashed as interest rates rose.  Would you like to see it again?  It caused a lot of suffering.  

One record Messrs Hawke & Cheating did manage to achieve was a peak in male suicides.  After 13 years of the horror male suicides hit levels not seen for 30 years.   Now (I believe) this awful statistic has returned to pre-Liebor levels.

deepthought wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 10:07pm:


So what are you saying, that a horde of Liberal voters are going to off themselves after the lost of their party and party hero JWH?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 7^th, 2008 at 11:03am:


In 1995 I stood with a mate on the side of the road as the bailiff supervised the emptying of the contents of his house into a removalists van for storage.   His family were evicted, the locks changed and the house was auctioned for far less than he owed.  His family fell apart and have never reconciled - he struggled to see his children as he lived in the back of a borrowed car.

He was wiped out by high interest rates and the collapse of the value of his property.  He has never recovered.

But he did not 'off himself'.  Though one would understand if he had have done so.  I saw the results of Hawke and Cheating's dynastic chaos first hand and it was often the battlers who paid the price. 

Freediver, your comments indicate that you have no idea of the reality of the time - that the wealthy got wealthier with Liebor.  At no other time in Australian history have we seen a deliberate attempt to enrichen corporate Australia to the detriment of Aussie battlers.

And I hope we never see it again - yet all the signs are there for it to happen again with the new Liebor government.

Male suicide peaked at the end of Hawke/Cheating's ruinous grip on the failed economy.  Following the relief of John Howard's takeover, male suicide returned to pre-Liebor figures.  What other event could cause the gradual rise in male suicide through the 80s and 90s culminating with a couple of very high peaks at the end of Liebor?  Such awful figures had not occurred in Australia since the early 60s and before that the Great Depression.  The figures are not coincidence.  History does not lie.  Tragic economic circumstances can make life unbearable for the vulnerable.

I've always wondered where your blinkered partisanship came from.

So what's your excuse FD? 

deepthought wrote on Jan 7^th, 2008 at 6:43pm:


Why don't you explain the logic of Serfchoices in a time of supposed boom, then!

Johnny won't be remebered for nothing!

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 7^th, 2008 at 8:02pm:


It's easy, remove the draconian 'unfair dismissal' legislation, allow the individuals the choices they are denied under Liebor governments and reward people according to productivity and profit.  Win, win, win. 

And the evidence is there to see.  The lowest unemployment in 40 years, the lowest incidence of industrial disputation in nearly 100 years, real average wage rises (unlike the real wage drop under Liebor) and astonishing household wealth.  How much better could it have been?

We'll never know - it has gone into reverse since November.

Delerium Tremins wrote:

Quote:


Well, that is not what is happening.  There are no 'collapsing real estate values,' anywhere in Australia.

There is no current pilot strike.

Quote:


You sacked some of your staff......why?  What business were you in?  When?

deepthought wrote on Jan 7^th, 2008 at 8:09pm:


Which "individuals" are you talking about?

Why did the Liberals kill Serfchoices if it was so good?

deepthought wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 6:46am:


Are you not crumbling, as all rust does?

 

from crikey, a bit of perspective on the itnerest rates issue:

Treasury must have left something out of “the red book”, the incoming minister’s brief it prepared for Wayne Swan.

Last week, ANZ chief economist Saul Eslake admitted the banks would have upped their mortgage rates earlier if it had not been for heavying by Peter Costello. “The main reason why banks haven't moved before this point is, to put it bluntly, because of the extraordinary political pressure exerted on banks by the previous government, and in particularly by the previous treasurer Peter Costello during the lead-up to the last election campaign,” he said.

Now, the ANZ has become the second major bank to raise its mortgage rates independent of the Reserve.

Yesterday, Swan said he would seek briefings from the Reserve and regulatory authorities to ensure banks do not take advantage of their customers. This was seen by the markets as a coded warning.

He was a little less subtle on this morning’s AM, but still seemed to give the banks the benefit of the doubt: “At the end of the day, it is a competitive market out there,” he said, “and customers can vote with their feet.”

They can – but punters like Treasurers go in against the banks with their fists swinging. Sooner or later Swan will need assertiveness training.

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 3:45pm:


The Treasurer whoever he is should use all the encouragement he/she can muster to ensure banks don't act arbitrarily.  Swan let Australia down by watching the fireworks as the mortgagor picked up the tab.

However any efforts should stop short of 'coded warning' which are threats.  Swan is still letting Australia down with his threatening behaviour towards commercial concerns.  It is now he should be watching the fireworks - the horse has already bolted.

Aussie wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 8:51pm:


I think you will find I already gave my opinion but as you didn't read my post I am happy to repeat it.  "My opinion is he needs to grow some bigger ones".

And you answered your own second question.  What changed?  The election result.

Liebor have canned the saviour as they detest freedom to choose.  They prefer to do your thinking for you.

http://news.smh.com.au/swan-attacks-banks-over-rate-rise/20080111-1lgp.html

Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan has singled out another bank for making an "excessive" increase in home loan interest rates.

Mr Swan also said the government would "harshly" judge banks which do not cut their lending rates when the US sub-prime credit crisis subsides.

St George Bank on Friday followed ANZ Bank in announcing a 0.2 percentage point rise in its standard variable rate because of the credit crisis.

Westpac raised its rates by 0.15 points, also on Friday.

"I say to all banks, you will be judged very harshly if you try to take advantage of the US sub-prime crisis by lifting rates excessively."

Mr Swan said while expected, St George and Westpac's rate rises were very bad news for families.

Customers in a competitive banking market would punish banks which excessively lifted rates, Mr Swan said.

"I note also that banks that do not reduce their lending rates as soon as the US sub-prime crisis subsides will be judged very harshly by the Australian government as well their customers."

....and what would that clown Costello have done?

Rudd has again been huffing and puffing about banks raising rates by more than 0.25%. It will be interesting to see what he does about it, if anything:

NAB lifts mortgage rate by 0.29%

http://news.smh.com.au/nab-lifts-mortgage-rate-by-029/20080306-1xfq.html

National Australia Bank Ltd (NAB) has increased its variable home loan rate by 29 basis points.

The Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) lifted the official cash rate by 25 basis points on Tuesday.

And in a briefing to investors on Thursday, St George Bank Ltd boss Paul Fegan admitted his bank was also considering a 40 basis point rise.

None of you have been listening have you?. He and Swan said they are going to put downward pressure on inflation etc. So thats what they are going to do.

It took Howard 12 yrs to screw up interest rates ..How can a spanking new Govt put it all right in a few weeks.? Absurd.

I mean I guess you have to understand about economics a little to hazard even a halfbaked guess. I dont so I wont- but even a blind person can see they havent had a chance as yet.

Oceans, Rudd and Swan were making vieled threats to the banks about what might happen if they exceed the RBA increase. I think Howard and Costello made very similar threats. None of it amounts to anything. If you can't follow through you should keep your mouth shut or you lose credibility.

mantra wrote on Mar 6^th, 2008 at 7:27pm:


Don't tell porkies mantra.  The interest rate John Howard inherited from Paul Cheating had been the same for over a year.  It wasn't falling at all - it was static.  A little knowledge would be helpful if you bothered to gain it.

Little Cardboard Kevvy actually achieved an unprecedented interest rate rise - one without Central Bank action.  This is extraordinary and did not happen ever during the entire 11 years of the coalition's brilliant managing of the economy.