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private health insurance (Read 28607 times)
Dooley
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #45 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 5:31pm
 
i'll take the time to read dt. ta
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Dooley
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #46 - Mar 29th, 2008 at 7:10pm
 
deepthought wrote on Mar 27th, 2008 at 7:10pm:
Dooley wrote on Mar 27th, 2008 at 4:43pm:
well then enlighten me, show what info your using to substantiate your insight. prove to me what you seemingly profess you know. how hard could it be?





It's not hard at all, I'm just surprised you are asking.



Quote:
The revenue lobby in Australia have succeeded in maintaining a barrage of arguments in favour of progressive income tax. The facts, many of them set out here and in other CIS publications, do not sustain those arguments. The top 25 percent of income earners pay 64 percent of the personal income tax. This result, based on ATO data, stands up to criticism. The argument that low and middle-income earners pay more of their income in taxation than high-income earners is simply false. It is not even ‘roughly proportional’. Arguments about tax evasion and avoidance are red herrings. Even if evasion and avoidance were serious problems the top 25 percent of income earners still pay 64 percent of personal income tax and 40 percent of households still pay all tax net of welfare. Nobody should be surprised that high-income earners pay more in tax than low-income earners. That is how a progressive tax system is meant to operate. The revenue lobby’s arguments do not stand up to scrutiny. Through their campaign of confusion and obfuscation, however, they are able to sustain a policy of taxation with misrepresentation.

Caution - pdf file



Got that Dooley?  It's been crystal clear to the rest of us all along and now you have someone other than me telling you the bleeding obvious.

"The top 25 percent of income earners pay 64 percent of the personal income tax."

"40 percent of households still pay all tax net of welfare"

So the top 25% of income earners (the wealthy or high income earners) pay 64% of all income tax.  And all gross income tax collected is paid for by only 40% of all households.

It is as I said that many low income earners pay no tax at all and the health care they expect for free is paid for by the wealthy.  Far from leeching the wealthy pay for all public health and often also have private health cover too.

Your apology if you would be so kind old boy.


here's something else to consider.

One of the most striking features of the tax system is its extraordinary
stability over most of the life cycle. Income tax hovers at about half of
total taxes for much of the life cycle, before plummeting dramatically
once retirement nears and after children have left home. Similarly, the
total tax burden as a percentage of gross income is relatively stable, at about 47 per cent of gross income, for most of the life cycle. It is less than 40 per cent for only single persons aged 65 years or more.

If the tax burden is measured as a percentage of gross income, then
above-average burdens are borne by the most affluent 20 per cent of
households, single persons living by themselves and aged less than 65
years, couples with no children and with one or no earners, households
whose primary income source is private (not wage and salary) income,
single income couples with dependent children and smoking
households. Households with below-average tax burdens are the least
affluent 40 per cent of households, single aged, sole parents and
households whose principal income source is government cash benefits.

http://www.natsem.canberra.edu.au/pubs/dps/dp39/dp39.pdf

this study of course doesn't take into account what most average to high paid workers these days in both the private and public sector have available to them:  salary packaging.  salary packaging of housing, cars, laptop computers, food and other items deemed acceptable by the ATO, such as superannuation.
Nor does take into account things like salary/wage minimisation schemes like trust fund arrangements.

you'd be lucky to get an apology from me on this one.


sorry about the stuff up with the cutnpaste of the article
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« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2008 at 8:31pm by Dooley »  
 
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deepthought
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #47 - Mar 29th, 2008 at 7:59pm
 
Dooley wrote on Mar 29th, 2008 at 7:10pm:
here's something else to consider.

If the tax burden is measured as a percentage of gross income, then
above-average burdens are borne by the most affluent 20 per cent of
households, single persons living by themselves and aged less than 65
years, couples with no children and with one or no earners, households
whose primary income source is private (not wage and salary) income,
single income couples with dependent children and smoking
households. Households with below-average tax burdens are the least
affluent 40 per cent of households, single aged, sole parents and
households whose principal income source is government cash benefits.

http://www.natsem.canberra.edu.au/pubs/dps/dp39/dp39.pdf

this study of course doesn't take into account what most average to high paid workers these days in both the private and public sector have available to them:  salary packaging.  salary packaging of housing, cars, laptop computers, food and other items deemed acceptable by the ATO, such as superannuation.
Nor does take into account things like salary/wage minimisation schemes like trust fund arrangements.

you'd be lucky to get an apology from me on this one.



Don't worry too much about your inability to apologise.  I never expect leftoids to display common courtesies such as following through on agreements.  Courtesy is strictly a right wing province.

I am delighted you are finally up to speed with this though.  Now you finally see that far from leeching, the high income earner actually funds all public health for the low income earner to use.
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Dooley
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #48 - Mar 29th, 2008 at 9:58pm
 
evrything is relative in the context of this argument dt. you make the assumption that a small number of people who pay a larger personal tax bill outweigh the Large number of people who pay a relatively higher indirect tax bill.
it is noted in the report that there is a similar tax burden across All groups. Which basically means that any favours directed toward the middle class/wealthy outweigh aginst the poor. Which you'll understand, is why i refer to the leeching off the poor.

As a proportion of income the low paid have a higher burden of tax and no allieviation through subsidies for education, housing, super, health, transport...... but i figure like most righturds you don't care if your in a better position than the poor, as long as the poor and downtrodden continue to ready for you to prosper off while off course you scream "poor poor me"
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IQSRLOW
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #49 - Mar 29th, 2008 at 11:00pm
 
Typical Leftard...proven wrong then dodge, ducks and weaves.

Suck it up Fooley...you are out and out wrong- you are devoid of facts and the real world
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deepthought
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #50 - Mar 29th, 2008 at 11:14pm
 
Dooley wrote on Mar 29th, 2008 at 9:58pm:
evrything is relative in the context of this argument dt. you make the assumption that a small number of people who pay a larger personal tax bill outweigh the Large number of people who pay a relatively higher indirect tax bill.
it is noted in the report that there is a similar tax burden across All groups. Which basically means that any favours directed toward the middle class/wealthy outweigh aginst the poor. Which you'll understand, is why i refer to the leeching off the poor.

As a proportion of income the low paid have a higher burden of tax and no allieviation through subsidies for education, housing, super, health, transport...... but i figure like most righturds you don't care if your in a better position than the poor, as long as the poor and downtrodden continue to ready for you to prosper off while off course you scream "poor poor me"


Nothing is relative.  The facts are plain and now you know them along with the rest of Australia.  All net income tax is paid by the high income earner.  It is not possible to leech from your own funds as you paid them.  To use your term - leecher - the only leechers are those who take but never give.  They are the low income earners and those on welfare who pay no net taxes.   The high income earners give and they give again when they also take private health insurance.  The low income earners and welfare recipients get public health paid for them by the wealthy.  They contribute nothing at all.
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Dooley
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #51 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 10:10am
 
einstien would be impressed with your folly.
that would only be true if income tax is the only tax we pay. and it isn't, as we all know.

there are a multitude of ways we pay tax and poor people pay a higher Proportion of their income through indirect taxes than wealthier people.

as well poor people do not, will not, and cannot use services that are offered by governments to the wealthy because they are poor.

middle class welfare - only helps to make the poor Less able to access the Help they Need to get through life because of lack of funding due in large part because of middle class welfare.

Therefore the welfare handed out to those who can look after themselves - because they have high incomes - is leeching off the poor.

Imagine at the family gathering the rich uncle scrooge takes out a little money to give to his poor relations, and as he is about to hand the money over he tells them about the private tuition for his children, the costs of his PHI, the repayments for his salary packaged car, house, food and transport and gives them a little less than half of what they need to get by.

but hey, they'll have something won't they? that's why they call it charity (oops) i mean welfare don't they.

the wealthy pay sfa towards the upkeep of the system and true to form they will greedy enough to demand subsidies where there is no Need for it.
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IQSRLOW
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #52 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 11:27am
 
there are a multitude of ways we pay tax and poor people pay a higher Proportion of their income through indirect taxes

I call BS on your statement- please provide figures to justify your outlandish statement
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deepthought
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #53 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 12:07pm
 
Dooley wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 10:10am:
einstien would be impressed with your folly.
that would only be true if income tax is the only tax we pay. and it isn't, as we all know.

there are a multitude of ways we pay tax and poor people pay a higher Proportion of their income through indirect taxes than wealthier people.

as well poor people do not, will not, and cannot use services that are offered by governments to the wealthy because they are poor.

middle class welfare - only helps to make the poor Less able to access the Help they Need to get through life because of lack of funding due in large part because of middle class welfare.

Therefore the welfare handed out to those who can look after themselves - because they have high incomes - is leeching off the poor.

Imagine at the family gathering the rich uncle scrooge takes out a little money to give to his poor relations, and as he is about to hand the money over he tells them about the private tuition for his children, the costs of his PHI, the repayments for his salary packaged car, house, food and transport and gives them a little less than half of what they need to get by.

but hey, they'll have something won't they? that's why they call it charity (oops) i mean welfare don't they.

the wealthy pay sfa towards the upkeep of the system and true to form they will greedy enough to demand subsidies where there is no Need for it.


I'm astonished dooley.

Despite the evidence (that everyone but you already knew) the most disadvantaged pay no net taxes you still claim they have the raw deal because the wealthy are leeching off them.  And they have contributed nothing!!!

Could you explain how the high income earner is ripping them off even though they are providing their entire means please?
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Dooley
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #54 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 1:12pm
 
contrary to you and your minority opinion the poor have the highest tax burden and lowest net gain from welfare. how could you possibley argue the wealthiest contribute the most? all i see them do is grab the most from whats on offer.
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #55 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 1:33pm
 
contrary to you and your minority opinion the poor have the highest tax burden

I am prepared to believe you if you put up some facts to back your argument Mr Dooley.

Can you, or are you a liar?
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deepthought
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #56 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:45pm
 
Dooley wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 1:12pm:
contrary to you and your minority opinion the poor have the highest tax burden and lowest net gain from welfare. how could you possibley argue the wealthiest contribute the most? all i see them do is grab the most from whats on offer.


So you ignore the evidence of your eyes and . . . .

Just what are you relying on that tells you the poor shoulder the burden of taxation and the rich just use it for their own greedy means?

Post your evidence if you would.
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #57 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:54pm
 
Another perspective - in financial terms, the rich get by far the most benefit from government spending. For the most part their wealth would not be possible without the infrastructure built by government.

This argument could go round in circles all day. The rich do pay more tax, even if it is measured as a percentage of income. This is a simple statement of fact. But to put it in emotive terms of leeching, fairness or 'shouldering the most burden' misses the point completely. Our vast wealth could only be attained by cooperation and multiple layers of social contract. You cannot analyse teamwork or a functioning society from a purely competitive perspective. In considering the impact of legislation or legislative changes, it is the various tradeoffs that matter, not some ideological notion of what constitutes fairness. There is no point demanding evidence for what are essentially emotive concepts lacking substance. It means nothing without the perspective gained form understanding the various tradeoffs.
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deepthought
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #58 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 6:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:54pm:
Another perspective - in financial terms, the rich get by far the most benefit from government spending. For the most part their wealth would not be possible without the infrastructure built by government.

This argument could go round in circles all day. The rich do pay more tax, even if it is measured as a percentage of income. This is a simple statement of fact. But to put it in emotive terms of leeching, fairness or 'shouldering the most burden' misses the point completely. Our vast wealth could only be attained by cooperation and multiple layers of social contract. You cannot analyse teamwork or a functioning society from a purely competitive perspective. In considering the impact of legislation or legislative changes, it is the various tradeoffs that matter, not some ideological notion of what constitutes fairness. There is no point demanding evidence for what are essentially emotive concepts lacking substance. It means nothing without the perspective gained form understanding the various tradeoffs.


Without evidence it is simply one person's claim.   Do you believe dooley's assertion that the rich are taking what allegedly belongs to the poor?

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freediver
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Re: private health insurance
Reply #59 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 6:56pm
 
Do you believe dooley's assertion that the rich are taking what allegedly belongs to the poor?

I think the claim, inasmuch as he actually made it, and your attempt to refute it, are both meaningless.
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