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Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west (Read 10016 times)
Musician35
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #15 - Mar 12th, 2008 at 10:43am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 10th, 2008 at 9:40pm:
christianity IS a mile different from islam.
Look at what christian and islamic countries have produced.
Chalk and cheese.


True. Examples are breakdown of the family unit, higher homicide rates, higher teenage pregnancy rates, much higher teenage abortion and venereal disease rates and higher rates of violent crime, dysfunctional society, drugs,  drunkenness etc. - oh and let's add George W Bush.

Having said that, of course religion is only a facet of a society or culture, and correlation does not causation prove (Musician35's First Law). That's why we should be cautious in such broad statements.

I don't disagree with you that Islam has its serious problems that need to be tackled, but Christianity is not entirely blameless either. 
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« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2008 at 10:48am by N/A »  
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #16 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 12:01pm
 
Sorry for the necropost, but FD I'd be interested in your thoughts about this muslim reformer today.

Do you still think he was unfairly maligned by the authorities? Are his efforts to find common ground between muslims living in the west and the non-muslim majority something that should be commended - or should we be beating him down with the standard labels like "typical muslim liar", "taqqiya practitioner", "doublespeaker" etc?

Surely this statement is an absolute affront to the values of freeedom, wouldn't you agree?...

There is no ‘double loyalty’. Muslims should and in general do abide by the law of their country – help your brother when he is right and when he is wrong (by not allowing him to do wrong). This does not mean blind nationalism – can protest within the framework of the law, or even go against the law within the framework of your conscience.

Beware of binary definitions – eg ‘good’ vs ‘bad’, extremists vs mainstream Muslims. Oversimplifying an issue does not help solve it. Extremist Muslims are overrepresented in the media and do not represent Islam.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:13pm
 
Quote:
Sorry for the necropost, but FD I'd be interested in your thoughts about this muslim reformer today.


There are a few questions I would put to him that I would not have thought of back then. I suspect he is in the same basket as you.

Quote:
Do you still think he was unfairly maligned by the authorities?


I do not know why he was maligned or whether it was unfair.

Quote:
Surely this statement is an absolute affront to the values of freeedom, wouldn't you agree?...


Not at all. I can't even see how it relates to freedom.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Karnal
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #18 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:13pm:
[quote]

Not at all. I can't even see how it relates to freedom.


Really? All you have to do is scroll back and read how you related it to.Freeedom.

Sorry - you’re saying you can’t see how it relates to Freeedom now.

Once you changed your mind, you erased all understanding that went with it.
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Soren
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #19 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:45pm
 
Quote:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 10th, 2008 at 9:40pm:
christianity IS a mile different from islam.
Look at what christian and islamic countries have produced.
Chalk and cheese.


True. Examples are breakdown of the family unit, higher homicide rates, higher teenage pregnancy rates, much higher teenage abortion and venereal disease rates and higher rates of violent crime, dysfunctional society, drugs,  drunkenness etc. - oh and let's add George W Bush.



How exactly are these the result of christian living? I think these things are prevalent where Christianity is abandoned, not where it is embraced.

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Soren
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #20 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 9:46pm
 
Quote:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 10th, 2008 at 9:40pm:
christianity IS a mile different from islam.
Look at what christian and islamic countries have produced.
Chalk and cheese.


True. Examples are breakdown of the family unit, higher homicide rates, higher teenage pregnancy rates, much higher teenage abortion and venereal disease rates and higher rates of violent crime, dysfunctional society, drugs,  drunkenness etc.



How exactly are these the result of christian living? I think these things are prevalent where Christianity is abandoned, not where it is embraced.

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Adamant
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #21 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 12:25pm
 
The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a renowned jew hater killer and hitler lover. He was killed for trying to overthrow the Egyptian Government.

The MB chant:

"Allah is our objective.
The Prophet is our leader.
The Quran is our law.
  Jihad is our way.
  Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."

He had a son in law called Said Ramadan who was expelled from Egypt when the first crackdown on the MB occurred. Went to Saudi Arabia and set up  the World Islamic League.
In a rare decision on orthodox Muslim faith the Muslim World League declared in April 1974 (by fatwa) that followers of the Ahmadiyyah movement are to be considered "non-Muslims“.[11]

Federal agents raided the U.S. offices of the Muslim World League after the attacks of 9/11. Abdurahman Alamoudi, who worked for the League, was convicted for sending funds to terrorist groups.[12]

Hended up in Switzerland and wrote "The Project".

Below is the Muslim Brotherhood's 1982 manifesto titled "The Project", apparently penned by Sa'id Ramadan, the brother-in-law of Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Project was distributed to Muslim Brotherhood members around the world who were ordered to strictly guard The Project's content from outsiders. They did so until a copy of The Project was discovered during a Swiss police raid of a senior Muslim Brotherhood financier's home in Switzerland in November 2001.

"The Project" outlined the Muslim Brotherhood's 25 strategies to subjugate the world under Islam (elements of particular intrigue are in boldface and italicized):

1.  Network and coordinate actions between like-minded Islamists organizations;

2.  Avoid open alliances with known terrorist organizations and individuals to maintain the appearance of "moderation";

3.  Infiltrate and take over existing Muslim organizations to realign them towards the Muslim Brotherhood's collective goals;

4.  Use deception to mask the intended goals of Islamist actions, as long as it doesn't
     conflict with Shari'a law;

5.  Avoid social conflicts with Westerners locally, nationally or globally, that might damage the long-term ability to expand the Islamist powerbase in the West, including the support of full-time administrators and workers;

6.  Conduct surveillance, obtain data, and establish collection and data storage capabilities;

7.  Put into place a watchdog system for monitoring Western media to warn Muslims of international plots fomented against them";

8.  Cultivate an Islamist intellectual community, including the establishment of think-tanks and advocacy groups, and publishing "academic" studies, to legitimize Islamist positions and to chronicle the history of Islamist movements;

9.  Develop a comprehensive 100-year plan to advance Islamist ideology throughout the world;

10. Balance international objectives with local flexibility;

11. Build extensive social networks of schools, hospitals and charitable organizations dedicated to Islamist ideals so that contact with the movement for Muslims in the West is constant;

12. Involve ideologically committed Muslims in democratically-elected institutions on all levels in the West, including government, NGOs, private organizations and labor unions;
     
13. Instrumentally use existing Western institutions until they can be converted and put into service of Islam;

14. Draft Islamic constitutions, laws and policies for eventual implementation;

15. Avoid conflict within the Islamist movements on all levels, including the development of processes for conflict resolution;

16. Institute alliances with Western "progressive" organizations that share similar goals;

17. Create autonomous "security forces" to protect Muslims in the West;

18. Inflame violence and keep Muslims living in the West "in a Jihad frame of mind";

19. Support Jihad movements across the Muslim world through preaching, propaganda, personnel, funding, and technical and operational support;

20. Make the Palestinian cause a global wedge issue for Muslims;

21. Adopt the total liberation of Palestine from Israel and the creation of an Islamic state as a keystone in the plan for global Islamic domination;

22. Instigate a constant campaign to incite hatred by Muslims against Jews and reject any discussions of conciliation or coexistence with them;

23. Actively create Jihad terror cells within Palestine;

24. Link the terrorist activities in Palestine with the global terror movement;

25. Collect sufficient funds to indefinitely perpetuate and support Jihad around the world.

Said Ramadan is Tariq Ramadan's father. With a genealogy/upbringing/indoctrination like that its a wonder he is allowed to travel anywhere , he also thinks the sharia should be used in western countries.


"According to the book Brother Tariq: The Doublespeak of Tariq Ramadan, the professor's sermons have radicalized countless young people in the gritty Muslim suburbs of France.

In 2003, a French court found that language used by preachers like Ramadan "can influence young Muslims and can serve as a factor inciting them to join up with those engaged in violent acts."

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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Adamant
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #22 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 12:32pm
 
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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #23 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 2:11pm
 
Adamant wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 12:25pm:
The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a renowned jew hater killer and hitler lover.


How interesting but neither sentiment is mentioned in his Wikipedia biography.  On what are you basing it, Adamant? 

All the references I've found online appear to be based on such questionable sources as the MEMRI.    Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Soren
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #24 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:29pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 2:11pm:
Adamant wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 12:25pm:
The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a renowned jew hater killer and hitler lover.


How interesting but neither sentiment is mentioned in his Wikipedia biography.  On what are you basing it, Adamant? 

All the references I've found online appear to be based on such questionable sources as the MEMRI.    Roll Eyes

Are you suggesting memri mistranslates things? How would you know?
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Adamant
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #25 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:29pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 2:11pm:
Adamant wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 12:25pm:
The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a renowned jew hater killer and hitler lover.


How interesting but neither sentiment is mentioned in his Wikipedia biography.  On what are you basing it, Adamant? 

All the references I've found online appear to be based on such questionable sources as the MEMRI.    Roll Eyes



Which God do you follow? Oh ignorant one! Even Gandalf has not commentated on the jew haters crimes.

You do know how to use search engines/read history books? Maybe not eh! Smiley

I am sorry for you Brian so sorry. Grin

Ignorance is bliss so they say. Roll Eyes

I will put your dilemma down to that, ignorance. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Goodbye
Brian





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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #26 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 5:17pm
 
Adamant wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 4:29pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 2:11pm:
Adamant wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 12:25pm:
The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna, a renowned jew hater killer and hitler lover.


How interesting but neither sentiment is mentioned in his Wikipedia biography.  On what are you basing it, Adamant? 

All the references I've found online appear to be based on such questionable sources as the MEMRI.    Roll Eyes



Which God do you follow? Oh ignorant one! Even Gandalf has not commentated on the jew haters crimes.


My religious belief has no bearing on the questions I've asked, Adamant.  Why do you have problems answering a simple question asking for your source of that statement?   Roll Eyes

Quote:
You do know how to use search engines/read history books? Maybe not eh! Smiley


Yes.  I did before I asked it.  Which is why I am mystified there is no mention of it in his biographical entry but plenty of mentions of it in pro-Israeli or Zionist websites only.

Quote:
I am sorry for you Brian so sorry. Grin

Ignorance is bliss so they say. Roll Eyes

I will put your dilemma down to that, ignorance. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Goodbye
Brian



I'll put it down to, "I don't know, I copied it off a website and didn't bother to note down the URL," shall I, Adamant?   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Soren
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #27 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
Brain, you are a submissive.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #28 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:10pm
 
Soren wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Brain, you are a submissive.


Yes, that's why I keep talking back to you, Soren.   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Karnal
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Re: Tariq Ramadan on integration, Islam, the west
Reply #29 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 10:08pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:10pm:
Soren wrote on Sep 13th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Brain, you are a submissive.


Yes, that's why I keep talking back to you, Soren.   Roll Eyes


Does he whisper passionately into your ear?

Mormor!
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