Australian Politics Forum - Liebor - a haven for criminals

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals Reply #60 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 11:16am Legality is a pretty low bar to set for the people who make the laws.
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deepthought

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #61 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 6:09pm

Quote:

deepthought wrote on Mar 31^st, 2008 at 6:21pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 31^st, 2008 at 2:19pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2008 at 1:33pm:

Any ozy would know Menzies was selling iron to japan

I knew nothing about it.

Just because we weren't yet at war with them doesn't make it OK. Whether it was 'wrong' would depend on the public mood regarding Japan's aggression at the time. If they were seen as a military threat to us and everyone else had stopped trading with them, then it would be wrong. For example, I'm pretty sure most of the AWB's crimes were committed before the current war began.

It's probably already mentioned among all that gibber ^^^^^^^ above DT, but the sale of iron to Japan pre-War was how he earned the tag "Pig Iron Bob." There was general bitterness that what Bob sold to the Japs our Diggers were shot with it.

Were his actions illegal?

No, just unaustralian. Menzies was more interested in Britain than Australia.He wouldn't even fight for his country,Menzies resigned his officers commision in 1915 to ensure he was not sent overseas to fight for his country, he was not a brave man.

Impressive swerving but I thought you said

Quote:

or even worse would be to sell iron to an enemy as the japanese were during ww2 and ofcouse pig iron bob Menzies did that, . . . . should have been dragged before the courts and charged with . . . unaustralian actions.

First the Japanese were not 'an enemy' as we were not in a war with Japan.

Second the iron sales you talk about were before any war Australia was involved in had begun - WW2 did not commence until 1939 and Japan did not join until a couple of years later.

Third 'unaustralian' is subjective and is not a crime.

Fourth the government should determine foreign trade issues - not unions - that's what they are elected for.

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deepthought Gold Member Offline In Defence Of Liberty Posts: 2869	Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals Reply #62 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 6:11pm freediver wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 11:16am: Legality is a pretty low bar to set for the people who make the laws. Not quite right. Australia is a country guided by 'the rule of law'. No law may be unconstitutional if it is to survive the judiciary. No one is above the law.
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Aussie

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #63 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 6:29pm

Quote:

Second the iron sales you talk about were before any war Australia was involved in had begun - WW2 did not commence until 1939 and Japan did not join until a couple of years later.

Sticking the neck out here a tad, 'cause I haven't checked but I reckon that ^^^^ from DT, is convenient.

Memory suggests to me that when Pig Iron Bob was flogging our stuff to Japan, they had invaded China.

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deepthought

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #64 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 7:21pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 6:29pm:

Quote:

Second the iron sales you talk about were before any war Australia was involved in had begun - WW2 did not commence until 1939 and Japan did not join until a couple of years later.

Sticking the neck out here a tad, 'cause I haven't checked but I reckon that ^^^^ from DT, is convenient.

Memory suggests to me that when Pig Iron Bob was flogging our stuff to Japan, they had invaded China.

Quite right. But it wasn't our battle. If nations stopped trading with other sovereign nations when they start feuding no one would be trading with anyone much. But we are miles off topic. It seems to be a method of debate to try and disrupt the flow by dragging unrelated stuff into the thread.

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Aussie

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #65 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 7:36pm

No, not really. It could easily be argued, in hindsight, that Pig Iron Bob helped arm the Japs for WWII. He certainly presented the raw material which assisted the Japs to invade China.

................and DT, it was all 'down hill' from there, was it not?

ergo, the flip side of the Thread..............Lieberal, a haven for (war) criminals.

Menzies gave the Japs some of the metal they needed to kill our Diggers.

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deepthought

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #66 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 7:45pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 7:36pm:

No, not really. It could easily be argued, in hindsight, that Pig Iron Bob helped arm the Japs for WWII. He certainly presented the raw material which assisted the Japs to invade China.

................and DT, it was all 'down hill' from there, was it not?

ergo, the flip side of the Thread..............Lieberal, a haven for (war) criminals.

Menzies gave the Japs some of the metal they needed to kill our Diggers.

You are saying Menzies could foretell the future? He alone knew of the impending war with Japan some 3 or 4 years in the future?

No doubt he also stood down in 1941 before the war with Japan was declared because he knew about Pearl Harbour in advance and didn't want to be called 'Pig Iron Bob' any more.

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Aussie Gold Member Online OzPolitic Posts: 38792 Gender:	Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals Reply #67 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 7:54pm None of that, at all, DT. Fact is............he helped arm Japan to invade eg, China. (It did not stop there, of course.) Do you wish to argue that was for the benefit of the Chinese people?
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freediver

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #68 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 8:29pm

Pretending that a country is not an enemy until the point when you are officially at war is naive in the extreme. The AWB got done for their deals with Saddam before the current war began. If the government rules that we can sell stuff to them, their will never be any constitutional barriers. That's any even lower bar than legality, which I didn't think was possible.

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deepthought

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #69 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 8:51pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 7:54pm:

None of that, at all, DT.

Fact is............he helped arm Japan to invade eg, China. (It did not stop there, of course.)

Do you wish to argue that was for the benefit of the Chinese people?

No. It was for the benefit of our two peoples. Australia and Japan. China was not a party to the trade and is irrelevant.

freediver wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 8:29pm:

Pretending that a country is not an enemy until the point when you are officially at war is naive in the extreme. The AWB got done for their deals with Saddam before the current war began. If the government rules that we can sell stuff to them, their will never be any constitutional barriers. That's any even lower bar than legality, which I didn't think was possible.

Sadly, but as always, you are dead wrong.

First no one can tell the future (despite Aussie's revelations about the clairvoyant skills of Bob Menzies). It is naive to believe it is so.

Second no one knows in advance a war, or any war, will break out - even up to the eve of it. It is naive to think anything is certain.

Third the Japanese were not an 'enemy' of Australia in 1937-8. It is naive to think they were.

Fourth the Commonwealth Constitution deals with matters of international trade - it is naive to think you know better than the framers of it.

Fifth neither the government nor any individual may break laws - our constitional democracy is founded on the rule of law. Only the naive thinks that complying with the constitution is lower than legality.

Fifth Saddam Hussein is not relevant to China nor Japan. It is naive to think he has any bearing on this off topic meandering.

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IQSRLOW Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1618	Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals Reply #70 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 8:58pm Sadly- FD and Aussie think that applying their standards of morality in hindsight makes them think they are right and it should be applied retrospectively. Your are correct DT- naivety in the extreme.
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Aussie Gold Member Online OzPolitic Posts: 38792 Gender:	Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals Reply #71 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 9:04pm Fact is DT......Pig Iron Bob sold the Japs stuff, ours, they needed to wage a War, one which directly led into WWII, and there is no way you can argue otherwise. You can prance, dance and postulate, but it will not re-write history.
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deepthought

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #72 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 9:11pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 9:04pm:

Fact is DT......Pig Iron Bob sold the Japs stuff, ours, they needed to wage a War, one which directly led into WWII, and there is no way you can argue otherwise.

You can prance, dance and postulate, but it will not re-write history.

Quite wrong. As usual.

WW2 began in Europe. The Japanese chose to involve themselves in 1941.

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IQSRLOW Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1618	Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals Reply #73 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 9:14pm Your are correct DT- naivety in the extreme. Requoted so that maybe Aussie will get it...one day
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deepthought

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Re: Liebor - a haven for criminals
Reply #74 - Apr 1^st, 2008 at 9:19pm

IQSRLOW wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 9:14pm:

Your are correct DT- naivety in the extreme.

Requoted so that maybe Aussie will get it...one day

Hence the term 'leftard'. I have no idea why leftys don't educate themselves about political reality and prefer to remain politically retarded.

See the Japanese had been tussling with China for the previous forty plus years. In fact the first Sino Japanese war was being fought at the time of Menzies birth.

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