Australian Politics Forum - AWB complicit in funding terrorists

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48841 At my desk.	AWB complicit in funding terrorists Apr 8^th, 2008 at 5:18pm Split from the Haneef thread: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1184426736/135 In response to mantras post: Why aren't the AFP using some of these resources to lay charges on the executives and directors of the AWB who have already been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism?
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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #1 - Apr 6^th, 2008 at 9:30pm

mantra wrote on Apr 6^th, 2008 at 8:57pm:

Quote:

Witch hunt? Is she the judge and jury? Has she decided whether police investigations are valid or invalid? Is she a policewoman? Is she a Greeny and likes to tell everyone what they may do

The Greens have every right to comment because this has been a witch hunt. Haneef has been cleared by the highest Court of Law in the land and had his visa returned, so he is lawfully entitled to his freedom.

Why aren't the AFP using some of these resources to lay charges on the executives and directors of the AWB who have already been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism?

Have they? Your evidence of the determination that they have been "complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism" if you would be so kind. I hope you are not defaming them.

And your proof the ongoing AFP investigation is a 'witch hunt' would be appropriate too. Merely saying it does not make it true.

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« Last Edit: Apr 6^th, 2008 at 9:44pm by deepthought »

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #2 - Apr 6^th, 2008 at 10:53pm

Quote:

Have they? Your evidence of the determination that they have been "complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism" if you would be so kind. I hope you are not defaming them.

And your proof the ongoing AFP investigation is a 'witch hunt' would be appropriate too. Merely saying it does not make it true.

Obviously there is some evidence DT otherwise Terence Cole wouldn't have made this finding.

Quote:

Commissioner Terence Cole's 2,000 page tome also predictably exonerates the Howard government, but criticises the lack of action by foreign affairs officials in investigating the scandal.

AWB faced its final humiliation on Monday, with the government agreeing to Mr Cole's recommendation to set up a taskforce including federal and Victorian police to consider a string of possible offences by its former senior staff.

AWB's conduct was spurred by the arrogance associated with its monopoly powers, Mr Cole said, which also saw it deceive the United Nations under the oil-for-food program run by the world body.

"At no time did AWB tell the Australian government or the United Nations of its true arrangements with Iraq," the report said.

"And when inquiries were mounted into its activities it took all available measures to restrict and minimise disclosure of what had occurred. Necessarily, one asks, why?

"The answer is a closed culture of superiority and impregnability, of dominance and self-importance."

Mr Cole's list of individuals he recommends be investigated as accessories to AWB's alleged offences includes former company chairman Trevor Flugge, former chief executive Murray Rogers and former chief financial officer Paul Ingleby.

He also suggests further investigation of a 12th person - Norman Davidson Kelly - a former BHP executive who founded a related company, Tigris Petroleum, which was central to an allegedly illegal debt recovery conducted by AWB.

"Mr Davidson Kelly is a thoroughly disreputable man with no commercial morality," the report said.

The taskforce will determine if the actions of AWB and the individuals amounted to breaches of the federal Crimes Act, the commonwealth Criminal Code and Victoria's Crimes Act.

The alleged offences relate broadly to official deception, including dishonestly influencing public officials.

Mr Cole also recommended AWB and its former executives face further investigation for possible breaches of the Corporations Act and federal banking regulations.

As far as my statement "complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism", it no doubt is a little premature, but hopefully Rudd will re-open this can of worms at a later date and ensure that these 12 men are investigated and charged accordingly.

In regard to Haneef - he has been exonerated - end of story. If the AFP keep up this persecution, the Australian government will be sued for millions.

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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #3 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 7:46am

mantra wrote on Apr 6^th, 2008 at 10:53pm:

Quote:

Have they? Your evidence of the determination that they have been "complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism" if you would be so kind. I hope you are not defaming them.

And your proof the ongoing AFP investigation is a 'witch hunt' would be appropriate too. Merely saying it does not make it true.

Obviously there is some evidence DT otherwise Terence Cole wouldn't have made this finding.

Quote:

Commissioner Terence Cole's 2,000 page tome also predictably exonerates the Howard government, but criticises the lack of action by foreign affairs officials in investigating the scandal.

AWB faced its final humiliation on Monday, with the government agreeing to Mr Cole's recommendation to set up a taskforce including federal and Victorian police to consider a string of possible offences by its former senior staff.

AWB's conduct was spurred by the arrogance associated with its monopoly powers, Mr Cole said, which also saw it deceive the United Nations under the oil-for-food program run by the world body.

"At no time did AWB tell the Australian government or the United Nations of its true arrangements with Iraq," the report said.

"And when inquiries were mounted into its activities it took all available measures to restrict and minimise disclosure of what had occurred. Necessarily, one asks, why?

"The answer is a closed culture of superiority and impregnability, of dominance and self-importance."

Mr Cole's list of individuals he recommends be investigated as accessories to AWB's alleged offences includes former company chairman Trevor Flugge, former chief executive Murray Rogers and former chief financial officer Paul Ingleby.

He also suggests further investigation of a 12th person - Norman Davidson Kelly - a former BHP executive who founded a related company, Tigris Petroleum, which was central to an allegedly illegal debt recovery conducted by AWB.

"Mr Davidson Kelly is a thoroughly disreputable man with no commercial morality," the report said.

The taskforce will determine if the actions of AWB and the individuals amounted to breaches of the federal Crimes Act, the commonwealth Criminal Code and Victoria's Crimes Act.

The alleged offences relate broadly to official deception, including dishonestly influencing public officials.

Mr Cole also recommended AWB and its former executives face further investigation for possible breaches of the Corporations Act and federal banking regulations.

As far as my statement "complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism", it no doubt is a little premature, but hopefully Rudd will re-open this can of worms at a later date and ensure that these 12 men are investigated and charged accordingly.

In regard to Haneef - he has been exonerated - end of story. If the AFP keep up this persecution, the Australian government will be sued for millions.

I think you should be apologising for your defamatory comments mantra.

The article you posted says

The alleged offences relate broadly to official deception, including dishonestly influencing public officials

I see no mention of the "heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism".

That's a very serious allegation you have made. And it is completely unsupportable.

As is the claim that the AFP are 'persecuting' Haneef. He and his lawyer were unaware of any ongoing investigation. How can you call it persecution when it is a normal police investigation going on without anyone's knowledge?

Once again your defamatory comments could lead you into hot water.

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #4 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 8:44am

Quote:

has been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism?

At least quote me correctly. Terence Cole determined that at least 11 AWB executives be investigated - possibly a twelfth. Did the $300 million go to the "Oil for food Program" or did it go to Hussein's trucking company, while he was still in power? Do you believe Hussein and his henchmen fed the people with this "bribe" money, or did it go to buy weapons to fight the Coalition of the Willing?

How are the AFP investigations going into the 12 AWB suspects? Why are all these extra resources going into investigating Haneef? Maybe they could split the investigation team and pursue those who were complicit in feeding Hussein's arsonal?

Treason or terrorism - what do you think DT?

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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #5 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 11:27am

mantra wrote on Apr 7^th, 2008 at 8:44am:

Quote:

has been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism?

At least quote me correctly. Terence Cole determined that at least 11 AWB executives be investigated - possibly a twelfth. Did the $300 million go to the "Oil for food Program" or did it go to Hussein's trucking company, while he was still in power? Do you believe Hussein and his henchmen fed the people with this "bribe" money, or did it go to buy weapons to fight the Coalition of the Willing?

How are the AFP investigations going into the 12 AWB suspects? Why are all these extra resources going into investigating Haneef? Maybe they could split the investigation team and pursue those who were complicit in feeding Hussein's arsonal?

Treason or terrorism - what do you think DT?

I copied your post so I have no idea why you think it was incorrect. They were your words.

That aside the money paid to Saddam by AWB was not intentionally paid to aid or abet terrorists. And they were certainly not "complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism" as you allege.

No one has stated that - except you.

It seems the kick backs were the cost of doing business and for the most part either approved by, or ignored by, the UN Security Council Over 2000 companies paid kickbacks totalling over $2billion. But that was dwarfed by the illegal oil sales with kickbacks totalling over $14billion - again, some of this was with UN Security Council knowledge.

In order to get any money to the people of Iraq it seemed to be necessary to pay Saddam his bribes. Not ideal but the alternative of starving Iraqis was considered to be worse.

And unfortunately not legal in Australia.

However Australia, under the coalition, was one of the only countries which launched an investigation. Nothing much at all happened to the 2000 plus companies who paid kickbacks which are not Australian companies.

Treason? No Terrorism? No.

Dishonestly influencing public officials? It seems so.

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #6 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 5:30pm

Quote:

Dishonestly influencing public officials? It seems so

Well that's a sugar coated version - but we have to look at the results of the dishonesty of the AWB and where this has led. It's not a good look on the global wheat market and the US is taking some legal action I believe.

The farmers aren't altogether happy either and neither would those Iraqi families who had loved ones murdered as a result of the bribery and corruption scandal officially overseen, but carelessly overlooked by a coalition Minister.

The AWB was a pet hate of Rudds so there would be some optimism that he will have this matter followed up eventually and penalties and charges dealt to the criminals.

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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #7 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 6:28pm

mantra wrote on Apr 7^th, 2008 at 5:30pm:

Quote:

Dishonestly influencing public officials? It seems so

Well that's a sugar coated version - but we have to look at the results of the dishonesty of the AWB and where this has led. It's not a good look on the global wheat market and the US is taking some legal action I believe.

The farmers aren't altogether happy either and neither would those Iraqi families who had loved ones murdered as a result of the bribery and corruption scandal officially overseen, but carelessly overlooked by a coalition Minister.

The AWB was a pet hate of Rudds so there would be some optimism that he will have this matter followed up eventually and penalties and charges dealt to the criminals.

The 'sugar coated version' as you call it is yours - you posted the article which contains the alleged offences.

You are very fond of defamation aren't you?

From defaming the people at the AWB (and they are serious claims you made), to the AFP and now the 'coalition minister' -

Iraqi families who had loved ones murdered as a result of the bribery and corruption scandal officially overseen, but carelessly overlooked by a coalition Minister.

I expect you will withdraw your allegation that any 'bribery and corruption scandal' that caused 'loved ones to be murdered' was 'officially overseen' and 'carelessly overlooked' by a coalition minister and level the charge where it belongs - you should know that the OFF program was overseen by the UN. If you wish to spit venom at least spit it in the right direction.

Pig Iron Kev will do the same as he has done about everything since getting his nose into the trough - nothing.

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #8 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 7:11pm

Calm down DT. You haven't stopped defaming and denigrating Rudd since he got into power and singing the praises of Howard - who is now defunct thank goodness.

I have said nothing that the papers haven't already printed. The bribes went to Saddam's trucking company for weapons. Those weapons added to the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Most thinking people are aware of how limited the Cole Inquiry was and that the perimeters were narrowed by Howard (mate of Cole's), to ensure no government Minister was investigated.

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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #9 - Apr 7^th, 2008 at 10:17pm

mantra wrote on Apr 7^th, 2008 at 7:11pm:

Calm down DT. You haven't stopped defaming and denigrating Rudd since he got into power and singing the praises of Howard - who is now defunct thank goodness.

I have said nothing that the papers haven't already printed. The bribes went to Saddam's trucking company for weapons. Those weapons added to the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Most thinking people are aware of how limited the Cole Inquiry was and that the perimeters were narrowed by Howard (mate of Cole's), to ensure no government Minister was investigated.

I don't believe the papers have made defamatory claims as you have but if you believe they have then post a few of the news items. It is very dangerous territory you are in.

And I have not defamed Kevvy, I have made political comment about Kevvy and the freedom to do so is enshrined in Australian common law.

Your comments have AWB members enabling terrorism and ministers overseeing murder.

Those defamatory statements are decidedly different to calling Pig Iron Kevvy a wally which would have the defence of truth anyway.

Incidentally the Cole Commission had all the muscle it needed and wanted. It dragged MPs including the PM before it and the government always made it clear that whatever power Cole wanted he could have. Your claims, again, have no basis in truth. You sound like a parrot of the Liebor Party who continually whined that refrain during the whole inquiry.

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #10 - Apr 8^th, 2008 at 7:46am

Quote:

Your comments have AWB members enabling terrorism and ministers overseeing murder.

They are your words DT. You need to read and dissect my posts properly. If that's how you've interpreted it, it proves just how defensive you are when it comes to any insinuation that Howard and his government were less than perfect.

My point is that the AWB scandal needs thorough investigation, equal to the one involving Haneef.

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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #11 - Apr 8^th, 2008 at 8:06am

mantra wrote on Apr 8^th, 2008 at 7:46am:

Quote:

Your comments have AWB members enabling terrorism and ministers overseeing murder.

They are your words DT. You need to read and dissect my posts properly. If that's how you've interpreted it, it proves just how defensive you are when it comes to any insinuation that Howard and his government were less than perfect.

My point is that the AWB scandal needs thorough investigation, equal to the one involving Haneef.

Really? My words? So I said this and not you?

Quote:

executives and directors of the AWB who have already been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism

Quote:

loved ones murdered as a result of the bribery and corruption scandal officially overseen, but carelessly overlooked by a coalition Minister

In that case I withdraw those allegations at onc . . . . .

Wait a minute. It was you who said it.

I am not in the slightest bit defensive. Because I am fully aware that the investigations into AWB exceeded any other investigations anywhere in the world following the Volcker Report and the ultimate Cole Commission. Subsequent to this the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Securities and Investments Commission also launched full investigations. There is every likelihood that not only will criminal charges be laid but ASIC has also indicated it will be laying civil charges as well.

Keeping abreast of the news is wise to avoid looking foolish.

I recommend withdrawing your defamatory allegations still. Once it hits the courts your comments will break the law.

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #12 - Apr 8^th, 2008 at 9:00am

Quote:

Keeping abreast of the news is wise to avoid looking foolish.

I recommend withdrawing your defamatory allegations still. Once it hits the courts your comments will break the law.

I will agree with the first part of your statement - I haven't read or heard "everything" on the news, but as far as defamatory allegations, I don't think so.

You conveniently highlighted certain words of my statement:

who have already been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism

If the AWB execs hadn't been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism - why are the AFP and ASIC still investigating them - in your words?

"There is every likelihood that not only will criminal charges be laid but ASIC has also indicated it will be laying civil charges as well."

As far as this statement goes - you've only highlighted certain words and part of the sentence - this is how it reads!

The farmers aren't altogether happy either and neither would those Iraqi families who had loved ones murdered as a result of the bribery and corruption scandal officially overseen, but carelessly overlooked by a coalition Minister.

You can't dispute that because you stated yourself there is an investigation into the criminality of the AWB executives. It has already been stated by Cole that "nothing" was brought to the attention of Downer but everyone associated with his ministry was blamed for not "notifying" him.

No-one believes this for a second.

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deepthought

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #13 - Apr 8^th, 2008 at 12:02pm

mantra wrote on Apr 8^th, 2008 at 9:00am:

Quote:

Keeping abreast of the news is wise to avoid looking foolish.

I recommend withdrawing your defamatory allegations still. Once it hits the courts your comments will break the law.

I will agree with the first part of your statement - I haven't read or heard "everything" on the news, but as far as defamatory allegations, I don't think so.

You conveniently highlighted certain words of my statement:

who have already been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism

If the AWB execs hadn't been determined to be complicit in the heinous crime of enabling acts of terrorism - why are the AFP and ASIC still investigating them - in your words?

"There is every likelihood that not only will criminal charges be laid but ASIC has also indicated it will be laying civil charges as well."

As far as this statement goes - you've only highlighted certain words and part of the sentence - this is how it reads!

The farmers aren't altogether happy either and neither would those Iraqi families who had loved ones murdered as a result of the bribery and corruption scandal officially overseen, but carelessly overlooked by a coalition Minister.

You can't dispute that because you stated yourself there is an investigation into the criminality of the AWB executives. It has already been stated by Cole that "nothing" was brought to the attention of Downer but everyone associated with his ministry was blamed for not "notifying" him.

No-one believes this for a second.

I can only advise you but it is up to you what you ultimately do about defamatory statements or breaches of sub judice rules.

As far as I am aware no one from AWB is being investiagted for anything to do with terrorism in any way - this is entirely your creation (and as I keep saying it is very serious to make such allegations).

You will find the alleged charges will be along the lines of breaches of trade practices/fair trading (civil) and bribery of public officials (criminal).

I strongly doubt any 'terror related' issues will arise and your speculation is entirely fictional.

And as far as your belief that no one 'believed for a second'? Cole did. He said so quite clearly in his report.

Quote:

"There is no evidence that any of the Prime Minister, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Trade or the Minister for Agriculture … were ever informed about, or otherwise acquired knowledge of, the relevant activities of AWB.

"At no time did AWB tell the Australian Government or the United Nations of its true arrangements with Iraq,"

You are probably alone in your belief. Unless you think Cole is telling porkies.

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mantra

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Re: Haneef charged with terrorism support
Reply #14 - Apr 8^th, 2008 at 12:46pm

So DT - you're a law student (albeit an overly enthusiastic one), or are you the one remaining censor on behalf of the now defunct coalition?

I can assure you I'm not breaking any laws - but if you want to test it -complain to the Internet Censorship Tribunal, which I believe the coalition revamped to restrict negative views or criticism of their performance while they were in government.

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