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In the name of Art (Read 17526 times)
mantra
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #15 - May 25th, 2008 at 6:06pm
 
Yes FD - the laws are there to protect minors from paedophiles, but anyone can call themself an artist to legitimise their  fantasies.  Regardless of what the Law Society says - I doubt Henson will walk away unscathed.  

Like most parents though - I have photos of my children as toddlers splashing around in water naked - but by the time most kids get to 3 or 4 a natural modesty takes over.  

There is not going to be a ban on child photography, but obviously underage, pubescent nude child photography is unacceptable and new guidelines are going to be discussed.    

Jenny Macklin - the Federal Families Minister today launched a discussion paper aimed at prompting a debate about what the federal government should be doing to better protect children from abuse and neglect. The paper will form the basis for a National Child Protection Framework.

"I think now with the internet, with multi-media, these images that some people see as art can now be displayed all over the world in a flash, and used for purposes for which they certainly were not intended, and I think a lot of parents are very, very worried about these issues," she said.

"This is about making sure we do everything we can to guarantee that children can have a childhood, that they can enjoy the wonders and excitement about being kids, not being forced to confront the things that adults have to confront."


http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/move-to-protect-children/2008/05/25/12116538...
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freediver
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #16 - May 25th, 2008 at 7:21pm
 
but anyone can call themself an artist to legitimise their  fantasies

No they can't. Artists are not allowed to have sex with children.

I doubt Henson will walk away unscathed

True. Money can't buy this sort of publicity. He will make a fortune out of it.

but by the time most kids get to 3 or 4 a natural modesty takes over

This modesty is not natural. It is cultural.

but obviously underage, pubescent nude child photography is unacceptable

It isn't obvious to me. What matters is whether the images are sexualised, not whether the child is pubescent. Pre-pubescent children are at just as much risk from pedophiles, which is what this is about. This is not about people who feel uncomfortable with the naked human body. There is nothing fundamentally different between you insisting the law should cover up females of a certain age and a muslim forcing his wife to wear a burqua. No amount of covering up will protect women and children from perverts and telling young girls they must cover their body sends the wrong message.
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mantra
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #17 - May 26th, 2008 at 11:03am
 
Quote:
but anyone can call themself an artist to legitimise their  fantasies

No they can't. Artists are not allowed to have sex with children


I should have said aesthetic fantasies - but where does this lead?

Quote:
I doubt Henson will walk away unscathed

True. Money can't buy this sort of publicity. He will make a fortune out of it.


At the moment it looks like he might get away with it.  People in high places are sticking up for him and some NSW law has an exemplary clause in it especially for people like Henson.

If he does get away with this - no doubt we will see a sudden influx of "artists".

Quote:
but by the time most kids get to 3 or 4 a natural modesty takes over

This modesty is not natural. It is cultural.


So does it matter if it is a cultural modesty?  We cover up ourselves and our children, for protection, not only from the weather, but predators.  These laws are supposed to minimise the crime rate so we can call ourselves civilised.

Quote:
but obviously underage, pubescent nude child photography is unacceptable

It isn't obvious to me. What matters is whether the images are sexualised, not whether the child is pubescent.

No amount of covering up will protect women and children from perverts and telling young girls they must cover their body sends the wrong message.


These images were sexualised in my view and the views of apparently 88% of the population.  Telling young girls they must cover their bodies appropriately (at least over their genitals) is something all mothers should tell their daughters.  

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« Last Edit: May 26th, 2008 at 11:14am by mantra »  
 
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Aussie
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #18 - May 26th, 2008 at 11:25am
 
Mantra:

Quote:
There is not going to be a ban on child photography, but obviously underage, pubescent nude child photography is unacceptable and new guidelines are going to be discussed.


What of that infamous photo of a naked young pubescent Vietnamese girl, taken after a napalm attack?  Front page right across the Globe.
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mantra
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #19 - May 26th, 2008 at 12:03pm
 
Sad and shocking Aussie!  It wasn't represented as art though for people to gawk at and study her intimate features - it represented the horror of war.
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #20 - May 26th, 2008 at 12:47pm
 
These images were sexualised in my view and the views of apparently 88% of the population.

This population you refer to, have they seen the images?
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #21 - May 26th, 2008 at 1:24pm
 
mantra wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 12:03pm:
Sad and shocking Aussie!  It wasn't represented as art though for people to gawk at and study her intimate features - it represented the horror of war. 


It represented (i.e. art) the horror of war and was published for people to gawk at.
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #22 - May 26th, 2008 at 1:27pm
 
Think about it mantra - the guy made money by photographing naked children in extreme pain. Nudity alone does not make an image pornographic.

Australian culture is a bit puritanical with regard to nudity compared to mainland Europe and many ohter places. It is important to distinguish between such cultural norms and what truly puts children in danger. I remember when I was in Germany they had one of those teenage magazines - their equivalent to cosmopolitan, and the encouraged teenage readers to send in photos of themselves having sex. No genital were shown of course. This didn't seem to bother anyone, and I doubt that it has put their kids at risk.
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mantra
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #23 - May 26th, 2008 at 7:36pm
 
Quote:
These images were sexualised in my view and the views of apparently 88% of the population.

This population you refer to, have they seen the images?


Yes - but my sentence was very badly worded and not explained.  I heard Hugh someone or other on radio this morning - a renowned lawyer/journalist who gave those figures for people who had rung up various government departments to complain about - or in some cases, laud the photos.  Bear in mind after the initial complaints at midday - the photos remained on the net until late that afternoon until the police took action and had them removed.

FD it's not about being puritannical - both my parents were artists and I dabbled a bit when I was younger and have seen plenty of nudity  throughout my life, but those photos upset me greatly as they did many other people from a variety of backgrounds. 

Perhaps if I had no children, I wouldn't show the same concern as I do now, but Henson has used those children as leverage for his own career.  I didn't say the photos were pornographic, but they were too intimate to be posed for by a pubescent child.

Quote:
It represented (i.e. art) the horror of war and was published for people to gawk at.


Yes you are right Aussie & I am wrong - the photo was for people to gawk at - but it was neither posed for nor sexualised and that's the difference.


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freediver
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #24 - May 26th, 2008 at 10:56pm
 
Mantra obviously the people who call the government to complain are going to have an issue with it. 88% is surprisingly low - I'd expect over 99% from that source.
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #25 - May 27th, 2008 at 10:17am
 
These images were sexualised in my view  - Mantra.

Maybe you can help me to understand then. How are they sexualised.

As I've said on Debate and Relate...

Quote:
Actually, I don't understand yet what is morally bankrupt about the picture. I have every understanding of the perverted, morally bankrupt mindset of this forum that would sexualise what has not been sexualised.

It's just a girl at the early dawn of womanhood. It reminds me of when I was 12 and the conflict between the ways of a child, that was my only experience and the confusion of adulthood that was forcing itself upon me. I can't see the sexual reference. Empathy causes me to reflect, and sex was not a part of my 12 year old experience. Barbie dolls not being as much fun anymore was my experience. My changing body, against my will, was my experience.

The nakedness just reinforces that understanding, as she is stripped of all cultural connectedness. Heck, she could be Muslim for all we know. LOL.

The point is....

I don't see the sexuality... All I see is you lot responding to it sexually. What does that say about you lot and your perception of 12 year olds and society?

Anyways... is it Art?

Encarta says of Art that it is 'the creation of beautiful or thought-provoking works'.

The photo's are beautiful and definitely thought provoking, if this thread is anything to go by... therefore it is art.
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #26 - May 27th, 2008 at 11:14am
 
Sappho perhaps a gentle song might help people to understand these confusing experiences of yours....

http://www.lyrics007.com/Angels%20Lyrics/Dogs%20Are%20Talking%20Lyrics.html

Title: Angels - Dogs Are Talking lyrics

Artist: Angels

(R. Brewster-Neeson-Spencer-Eccles-Hilbun)
There comes a time in a young girl's life
when she first meets a man
there comes a time in a young girl's life
when she becomes a woman
Highway number nineteen
the moon's shining bright
she's been in my dreams
if it's ever gonna happen
it'll happen tonight
Talk to me, talk to me
tell me what you gonna do
come to me, come to me
are we gonna see it through?
so you got a reputation
well I do too!
all across the nation
there are guys hanging out to meet girls like you
The dogs are talking
Heartbreaker, heartbreaker
with a jelly roll skin
lovemaker, lovemaker
aint'cha gonna let me in?
backseat, backseat
you know ya gotta loosen up
body heat, body heat
don't stop now
don't stop...don't stop
The dogs are talking
Cool down, cool down
you don't wanna go home
turn around, turn around
we're gonna scream and moan
talk to me, talk to me
what's you number?
what's your name?
gimme more, gimme more
gotta do it again, and again, and again
The dogs are talking
Let them talk, talk!
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Sappho
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #27 - May 27th, 2008 at 12:20pm
 
That song refers to young women, not girls.

And no, it goes nowhere even close to explain what Mantra and others are seeing that is sexual in a 12 year old girl portrayed in that photo.
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mantra
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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #28 - May 27th, 2008 at 4:18pm
 
Quote:
It's just a girl at the early dawn of womanhood. It reminds me of when I was 12 and the conflict between the ways of a child, that was my only experience and the confusion of adulthood that was forcing itself upon me. I can't see the sexual reference. Empathy causes me to reflect, and sex was not a part of my 12 year old experience. Barbie dolls not being as much fun anymore was my experience. My changing body, against my will, was my experience.


Yes Sappho - the experience was yours - in front of your bedroom mirror alone,  not for the rest of Australia to experience alongside you.  You didn't have to pose alone with a middle aged man while he told you to move this arm there and that leg there - now turn, twist, look up, move your knee etc. etc.  He was alone with these children as most artists are with their models.

Some interesting comments - from Clive Hamilton, Director of the Australia Institute:

Extracts

“In such a cultural environment, the naked body of a child, particularly a girl of 12 showing the first signs of sexual development, can no longer be viewed “innocently”, and cannot but be seen by everyone, other than hermits, in a sexual context”.

The photographs show the girl’s budding breasts, her hips and, in one case, a glimpse of her vagina. Their intention is not to arouse erotic feelings and they are unlikely to do so except in those already inclined to view children in that way. They are imaginative, haunting and beautiful. Although not sexual images, they can be seen as a commentary on the slow, halting and unsettling metamorphosis of child’s body into an adult one.

However, the fact that the pictures cannot be characterised as pornographic is not the end of the ethical story because the social context in which the photographs are presented changes their nature.

If we lived in a society of sophisticated people with mature sexuality, one that respected children and the integrity of their maturation process, then there could be no objection to the Henson exhibition. Alternatively, if the photographs were seen only by the intended audience and in the gallery environment, the exhibition could fulfill its purpose without controversy.

Perhaps some decades ago such a world, or at least a subset of the world, existed; but it doesn’t any more. The exhibition cannot be isolated from a society in which children are increasingly exploited for commercial reasons and used for gratification…






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Re: In the name of Art
Reply #29 - May 27th, 2008 at 4:39pm
 
However, the fact that the pictures cannot be characterised as pornographic is not the end of the ethical story because the social context in which the photographs are presented changes their nature.

Crap. That's the logic they use in the middle east to make women cover up from head to toe. There are far more sexualised images of 12 year olds in advertising. Just because some freak is going to get his rocks off is not a good enough reason to ban something, because it would become a reason to ban everything. Pedophilia laws are designed to protect children from pedophiles, not attempt to block everyone's access to anything that could arouse a pedophile.

Perhaps if this weren't such a taboo, this girl wouldn't feel so insecure about what is happening to her body:

12yo girl wins sex change

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1211871068/0#0
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« Last Edit: May 27th, 2008 at 4:54pm by freediver »  

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