Refugees came to escape, not everyone has a sad story to tell. Money is a big drawcard, you think that word hasnt got back about all the government support you get here, of course it has. Europe is a stones through away and so is Asia, there are a lot of choices and a lot of Muslim countries. Why here. Why Camden.

Why here. Why Camden.

Because that's where they choose. It's their choice. It's a free country, remember. Trying to get your new neighbours booted out of the area because you don't like them is pretty unaustralian.

Islam is an ideology running amok.

this is a culture tending itself to promoting violent and offensive behaviour toward non-muslims, and it is a significant proportion, who share a common religion

So which is it? Islamic ideology or a culture among people who just happen to to share the same religion? You seem very keen to find reasons to disrespect people. The actions of people they have nothing at all to do with is hardly a valid reason. You do seem to be doing exactly what you claim not to - confusing individuals and their philosophies.

What that means is that I always respect all people, unless they give me a reason not to.

That's nice. Sort of like saying you're a nice person, unless someone crosses you.

As Malik stated, Islam is not exactly Monolithic. It's even less so than Christianity. I have met Muslims in Turkey who were very different from your stereotypical views. I won't elaborate, but the women in some parts of Turkey are very liberated (the Adriatic coast). I was younger and more reckless then (and not married).

In Africa, I had a long conversation with a Taxi driver in Conakry (in French). He was Muslim, and his wife was Roman Catholic.  "There isn't much difference between Muslims and Christians" he said. "So were you married by the priest or the Imam? I asked.

His reply - "Only rich people can afford such things"

His marriage, like most in Sub-Saharan Africa was defacto.

If it wasn't for the mosqué schools, most of the people there would be illiterate. It was interesting to see French written in Arabic script

No, Islam is not monolithic by any means.

Back to basics, but first I will reply to FD's statement.


What that means is that I always respect all people, unless they give me a reason not to.(me)

That's nice. Sort of like saying you're a nice person, unless someone crosses you.(FD)

Yes FD, that is exactly what that means.
We, of western cultures, are being crossed by influential elements that are not insignificant in the Islamic culture, to merely hope that if we are nice, and just put up with it, then that will may make them stop plotting and killing, is not a course of action which I give credence to.

I would prefer that they self regulated, I would prefer to not have to worry about where I wish to go, in case my mere presence as a white face would inspire some deluded zealot to kill me. There barbarity has brought us to this point, where people as moderate as myself, say;

"THIS MUST STOP"

To counter, that dialogue around the campfire, and a good old sing song will fix it, ignores the fact that we are dealing with religious fanatics, who are by definition, the most deluded amongst the delusional, reason is not a part of their cognitive process.

People fear what will ensue if separatist Islamic schools pop up in their communities.
They saw how Bashir turned confused adolescents into murdering automatons in his Islamic school, they know that they do not want that in their community, and that is not an irrational fear.

I have to disagree Muso, whilst I share in, or even more probably, exceed, your disdain for the 'born again' lot, I do not see them as a greater threat than Islam.

Mostly they are just delusional enough to have their wallets syphoned off by these religious shysters.

The mind boggling hypocrisy, so transparently fueled by personal greed, is often very humourous entertainment.

"I will HEAL YOU, in the name of GEEEESUSS", never fails to crack me up, as they push some old lady over, it is better than Monty Python.

You seem to miss the point, a Muslim is a Muslim first, above all else, then he has a strong link to his birth country, then he is Australian. Australia is number 3 and always will be. I know Lebonese kids who have never been there and still say they are Lebs, not aussies, unless you change that sort of attitude there will always be a difference between us.

pope urban 2 wrote on Jun 7^th, 2008 at 11:35am:

This I have to say is not simply a Muslim thing im afraid. It happens with the majority of non Anglo migrants that come to Australia. They face some some initial racism or feel very insecure when they come here and then retract back into ghettos of people from their own ethnic groups and go by their identities of being arab, indian, african etc and not being Australian. It's a very tribalistic attitude and is actually forbidden in Islam. I am proudly Australian, even though my father is from Greece and mother from Turkey and I am of their descent, I certainly am an Australian.

I think the fault here lies with the way people bring up their children and I also have to lay some blame on us in Australian community in general because sadly we are quite racist to groups of people who migrate here. My grandparents got it in the 50's when they arrived from Greece and they are white Christians. Perhaps if we were less racist and more welcoming to migrants they would not retract back into their own community groups and would instead integrate into Australian society more.

In addition to that, you said that we are Muslim first. No doubt that I am Muslim first, but do you know what that means? It means that I hold my religious beliefs being the guiding factor in my life as to how I should act. Those very same beliefs dictate that I should follow the law of the land I reside in and contribute to society in a way beneficial to all. It means that if my government told me to do something wrong, such as kill an innocent person I would not do it as my religion forbids such behaviour and teaches me that it is wrong, so if the law of the land grossly contradicts my religion I would not follow it as a Christian or Jew would also not follow such a law as their religion prevents them from doing so. But instead I would vote for another government and work to the best of my ability to change such a law.

I don't see how that is a bad thing.