mozzaok wrote on Jun 7^th, 2008 at 5:12pm:


Wow, you know for someone who remembers something in their lifetime you really do have a selective memory.

How did Khomeni manage to get everyone not to like the west? Iran HAD a democratically elected government in the 1950's when the Iranian people elected Mohammed Mossadeq, a western educated man to be president. Mossadeq, on seeing the unfair exploitation of Iran's resources that British Petroleum was conducting nationalised Iran's oil supply so that the people of Iran could benefit out of the sale of their oil instead of the British. In response to that, the MI6 and CIA at the wish of their respective governments supported, instigated and took part in subversive actions in Iran including overthrowing Mossadeq in what was called Operation Ajax. They then installed the Shah of Iran who was certainly not democratic and who's SAVAK forces would brutally repress any opposition to themselves.. Westerners did work and holiday there, they earned huge sums of money and exploited the poor Iranians.

It was then that the Islamic Revolution in Iran took place, it was a popular movement supported by the majority of Iranians and to go further and prove that, a referendum was made as to see whether Iran should be an Islamic State or not and it was chosen by the people that it should indeed be an Islamic State (although not a proper Islamic state in my opinion).

Again, the West interfered in Iran and tried to cause trouble for the Iranian government with more subversive actions and even went as far as to give Saddam Hussein their full military and economic support to attack the Iranians. The Iranians lost hundreds of thousands of young men who fought against the brutal and well equipped Iraqi army which even used chemical weapons against Iranian cities. Iranian students, acting independently from the Iranian government raided the US embassy and took whoever was at the embassy in Tehran hostage and when the Iranian government saw the support of the people for this action they sanctioned it and kept those hostages for 444 days and repelled any American attack to get them out. Eventually the Iranians only released those hostages when the US government  made a promise which was recorded in the Algiers Agreement that: "The United States pledges that it is and from now on will be the policy of the United States not to intervene, directly or indirectly, politically or militarily, in Iran's internal affairs." in addition to providing compensation to the Iranians but still have the Iranians under sanctions and they have been under it since 1979.

THAT is why the Iranians grew a distaste for the West and while I don't support the Iranian government's actions in everything they do I completely understand why they wouldn't be happy with the West because even after all of the things the West has done in Iran.

Perhaps if the West didn't interfere as much as they did by overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran he Ayatollahs wouldn't have gained so much support and Iran would be a different place now supporting the West (although most Iranians do like the US, they don't like the US government).

To deny their are cultural traits is not being honest at all.

Strawman. Also, you are confusing culture and religion now. There's no reason why someone cannot be Austraslian by culture and Muslim by religion.

As I have said before, Muslims choose, at and for their own convenience, whether they wish to be regarded as a culture, a race, or a religion.

A person is none of those. Islam is a religion. People choose a religion, are born into a race, and can adopt any culture they want. Likewise a white Australian Christian can describe himself in either way. I'm not sure why you think this is a problem. Christianity does not describe everything about a person, nor does being white, nor does being Australian.

So to deny the palpable hatred for the west that is bubbling just beneath the surface of what would be considered, normal, conservative muslim people.

It bubbles just below the surface of all people, hence the reference to the irrational fear of Muslims 'invading' Cambden. The same principle is behind what is happening here. The fact that you have a half arsed justification does not make it unique. There is always a half arsed justification. It happened in Germany less than a lifetime ago. It has nothing to do with Cambden. It's just a piss poor excuse for discrimination.

Talk about whoosh!
The whole point flew straight through to the keeper.

Malik, when you state;
"oh please.. Iranians are among the nicest people I've ever met they don't hate Westerners....."

That IS THE POINT.
These seemingly normal, moderate, friendly people, turned like snakes onto any westerner in Iraq. Families abandoning everything and fleeing for their lives, lest they be torn apart, limb from limb, by a crazed fanatical mob of these, "normal, friendly" people.
These were not strangers, or extremists, these were their friends and neighbours, whose kids played together only weeks before.
This  uncharacteristic display of violence was  all at the behest of their religious leaders.

Also I notice you did not comment on the post Shah regime's record on human rights abuses.
I am not trying to absolve western countries for their injustices, but neither do I ignore the huge injustices perpetrated in the name of Allah.

Iran!!

Here is a letter/petition, to heads of states from Iranians who have fled from the extremist Islamic regime.


View Current Signatures    -   Sign the Petition

    To:  President George W. Bush

    The White House
    1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
    Washington, DC 20500
    Tuesday July 8th, 2003

    Honorable President George W. Bush

    CC: Heads of the world’s democratic states, U.S. Congress, the European Parliament, UN Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch

    It is the irony of history that in the land of Cyrus The Great, the birthplace of the first charter of the “Rights of Nations” and the “Declaration of Human Rights” over 2500 years ago, there is today no respect for human and civil rights by the Islamic regime. Cyrus, who was exceptionally tolerant of local religions and local customs and against slavery, is famous for freeing the 42,000 Jewish captives and allowing them to return to their homeland. His name appears twenty two times in the Bible. Were it not for Cyrus, it seems at least possible that the Jewish people would have become extinct in the fifth century BC and we would have never received their great contributions to mankind. Unfortunately, present day Iran is ruled by a small group of Islamic Mafia Clerics who are the embodiment of evil and have no respect for Human Rights in this land which is the birthplace of Darius The Great, Babak, Avicenna (Ibn Sina), Ferdowsi, Khayyam, Hafaz, Saadi and Rumi. We need the help and full support from the leaders of the free world to change this regime with no / minimum bloodshed.

    Today Iranian people are demanding civil and political freedoms, separation of religion and government, equality and justice (especially for the Iranian women), the immediate liberation of all political prisoners and Free Referendum.

    With regard to the above, we the undersigned request your urgent help so that another human tragedy can be prevented before the Islamic Republic’s regime causes another massacre in Iran. It is a regime that has executed over 120,000 political prisoners and freedom-loving Iranians in less than 2 decades. An Iran that is free from the current regime's rule will have countless benefits such as undercutting much of the funding for terrorist groups, paving the way for a more peaceful Middle East, and creating a region in which all inhabitants can participate in a system that is for the people and by the people. Protests and demonstrations are a democratic right of the Iranian people, and it is the duty of all freedom-loving people around the world to defend this right. Since there are over 1,000,000 Iranian-American and Iranian citizens in the United States we ask you as a responsible authority to defend the rights of not only our family members and fellow countrymen but of all people who demand freedom throughout the world. In this we ask that you respond to the following appeal:

    1) In honor and memory of all the Iranian contributions to world history and mankind, please consider to proclaim 18Tir July 9 As “Iran’s Human Rights and Freedom Day” in the USA in an effort to attract peace-loving Americans in the struggle to support a free Iran and a more peaceful world.
    2) Please condemn the inhumane crimes of the Islamic Regime of Iran and demand that it stop the suppression and use of violence against the demonstrators. Please give an ultimatum to the regime, urging it to step down peacefully because they have lost all legitimacy.
    3) Please ask the international community to immediately send a team to observe the situation in Iran.
    4) Please support the general demand of the Iranian people for a referendum and free elections observed by international organizations.

    Since the September 11th tragedy, one of the most tragic human rights violations of recent times, the world community must deliver a strong condemnation to such violators, and we should not tolerate any human rights violations in any part of this planet by any group. Please consider the above requests from freedom and peace-loving Americans, Iranian-Americans, and the Iranian people who are great friends of all Americans and freedom-loving people of the world.

    All human beings are in truth akin;
    All in creation share one origin.
    When fate allots a member pangs and pains,
    No ease for other members then remains.
    If, unperturbed, another's grief canst scan,
    Thou are not worthy of the name of man.
    Sa'adi (1215?-1292) Famous Persian Poet

If you spoke to some(as I have) who were there, and only just managed to escape, then you may realise how mistrust for Islam grows, through behaviour like I described.

These people loved Iran, and Iranians, but were attacked, for no reason other than that they were westerners.

I appreciate how many behave appallingly and ignorantly when confronted with things they do not understand, and I do not wish to unfairly vilify muslims, but I do think the time has come, where they need to stand up and be counted.
The decent muslims need to openly oppose extremism, and Islamic Imperialism, but I suggest that they fear these extremists just as much as many "ignorant" westerners, and would rather sit back and hope they do not get caught up in the trouble.

I also suggest that any mulsims who would openly criticise the Islamists, would be targeted with volence, as the extremists can accept no view outside of their myopic, distorted, perception.

That is a fact that I doubt even you would challenge, yet you wish westerners to just sit back and hope it goes away.
Unfortunately, more and more are coming to the conclusion that such an outcome is very highly unlikely.
Hence the fear grows.

Here is an interesting report of the growing Heavy Metal movement in Tehran (in Farsi with subtitles)

You see see by the commentary that the reporter doesn't exactly approve:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BiL4HuFv-5g&feature=related

You switch on a TV set in a typical Turkish Hotel in say Izmir, and you'd be totally amazed by the variety of stations. Those guys are more depraved than us !

I've met families in Kuwait where the woman of the house rules the house with an iron fist.

Then there's Indonesia.....  but let's not go there.

So a lot of people have a totally stereotypical view of Islam that is unjustified.

Well said Acid,      "They are normal friendly people with normal aspirations like you and I."

This is a point I have made myself, numerous times, and heartily believe.

This brings us full circle, back to the Islamic school issue.

Take these "normal friendly people", put them under an extremist believing teacher, and we have the next generation of home grown fundies, willing to spread fear and carnage in the name of Jihad.

Unfortunately they do not wear badges saying; "Please be careful of me, I am an extreme religious bigot, willing to promote hatred and violence in the name of Allah".
They just blend in with the crowd until they find people they can rope into their insane beliefs.