mozzaok wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 9:03am:


I have to agree with you, but that's not something that's unique to Islam. Kids in their teenage years are quite receptive to idealistic teachings, and idealistic role models especially if the teacher is seen as a bit of a rebel.

Che Guevara was a role model that many kids aspired to in Europe back in the 60's and 70's. His ideas were not exactly benign either.

I think they should legislate against all 'one true religion' teaching in Australia. I have no real problem with multi faith teaching, which is the most common form of religious teaching in schools nowadays.

- and as for Sharia Law, Malik. I totally disagree with you. It would be a disaster.

It all depends on how you define discriminate FD, does it not?

Also, to define the problems that Islamism pose for the future as being blown out of proportion, then you need to get out more.
The exact opposite is what is actually happening.
Tensions and conflicts are downplayed in the hope of pacifying the more extreme, it does not, it merely emboldens them.
It is not an easy problem, but it is, clearly, a very real and present problem, and as I said to Malik, just hoping it will go away is very unrealistic.

Their is a large, well organised, well sponsored, network of Islamist extremists, whose goal is world domination by Islam.
That is not theory, it is fact.

Now to ignore that, and the influence that these groups have, especially amongst younger muslims, in the hope that if we are just nice to them, and let them do whatever they want, they may change their mind, is just ridiculous.

I do not know the answer to this problem.
What I do know is that allowing muslims to take over whole communities, and set up their own little state within a state enclaves, as we see throughout europe, is producing disastrous consequences for the locals, who opened their homes and their hearts to help them.

Now they are reviled as western pigs, and have their freedoms challenged at every turn by nutty religious f'wits who think skin is a sin.

I make no secret of, and offer no apology for my stance against all religion, but Islam is by far the worst. Not because of it's teachings, but because of the actions of it's followers.

We are reasoning beings FD.
If we learn by experience, we may avoid repeating mistakes.
We need to apply some reasonable thought into protecting the rights and freedoms of non-muslims as well.

I will not be cowed into believing that we must allow muslims to create new enclaves in our country, when we see the violence and hatred coming out of similiar enclaves in europe.

When muslims respect our rights, then I will reconsider if I think I need to start worrying about theirs.

Should someone be punished for something they didn't do? It's a simple question.

Only simple if you believe that religion should receive preferential treatment.
I, obviously, do not.

If you consider an established community  not wishing to see it's whole social dynamic changed, by the introduction of a religious school, as being punishment of the muslim community, that is your right, I do not.
I see it very much as a reasonable precaution by people who would like to stay in their homes, without fear of being engulfed in a wave of alien culture, which quite reasonably frightens them.

I see it as our local community refusing to allow the rights of muslims to supercede their own, to which I say, "Fair Enough!"

mozzaok wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 9:03am:

You know what Mozzaok, I COMPLETELY agree with you there. Putting an impressionable youth under the 'guidance' of an extremist teacher is a sure fire way to create more fundamentalists, no doubt. We try and prevent our youth being put through this and that is why in Melbourne we have things like Madrassa which is like a religious school taught by people who parents can trust and who aren't extremists, we also have proper Islamic schools and none of the ones I know in Melbourne promote any extreme ideas, in fact of the youth that I have met from them I have found them to be very open minded and wanting to really contribute have a cohesive society here in Australia.

There still are influences by extremists which can't be avoided, such as can be found on the internet and at certain mosques. We don't like this and try and show our youth how such behaviour is wrong. We really don't like Saudi money coming into the nation because it is not a gift, it comes with conditions to teach wahabi style extremist teachings which we don't want here.

We also at one stage had a problem in Melbourne with extremists trying to go into prisons as chaplains and influence Muslim prisoners and radicalise them. But we have stopped that and the Islamic Council of Victoria and the Department of Corrections both work together to ensure such crazy people aren't allowed to go anywhere near the prisoners.

All of the above reasons are why we should stop supporting extremist governments in the Middle East. They are not good for Islam and will only promote terrorism and hate.

Taking away someone's freedom to choose where they live is punishment. You would give some people fewer rights than other members of society because of something they did not do.

What you see as the problems caused by religion are not actually caused by religion. They are caused by religious discrimination. As you demonstrate, atheists are just as capable of this.

Who has taken away whose rights to live where?

Luckily no-one has, but that is what you are promoting. For example:

If you consider an established community  not wishing to see it's whole social dynamic changed, by the introduction of a religious school, as being punishment of the muslim community, that is your right, I do not.

I will not be cowed into believing that we must allow muslims to create new enclaves in our country

Religion is, as it always has been, a bastion for ignorance, superstition, and prejudice, all based on delusional beliefs in unkown, and unknowable entities, that "move in mysterious ways".

Yet athiests are no better, are they?

No religion has ever earned mine, and I refuse to offer it just because I will be falsely described as bigoted, if I do not.

You are described as bigoted not because you refuse to respect religion, but because you promote religious discrimination and collective punishment - both of which are violations of fundamental human rights.

Human rights are an issue for everyone. Just because Islamic regimes undermine human rights does not mean we should do the same here. in fact we should do the opposite.

What society wants to create cultural ghettoes?

Again, you do not make sense. A society as a whole cannot qwant something. It is the individuals within it that want things. Enclaves tend to reflect discrimination. The greater the discrimination a minority group feels, the more they will feel pressured to live with their own kind. It happens with every immigrant group and it does not seem to undermine society - it merely eases the transition.

You cannot destroy fundamental human rights by projecting your own fears onto the rest of society and using the desires of that society (assumed to be your own) to justify discrimination and collective punishment.

Australians are free to choose where they live and no amount of ranting from bigots will convince Australians we should intervene and prevent citizens from exercising that right. No amount of ranting will convince Australians that locals need to be punished for the actions of unrelated people on the other side of the world.