Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 10:21am:

you're the one who's brought the subject off topic.. i proved u wrong by showing you JEWISH law where the punishment given to the banu qurayza was appropriate and now your saying start another thread? lol..

you insult your own intelligence by asking the same question over and over again when i have provided a completely appropriate explanation. they were not compelled to accept islam or receive the death penalty because before their treachery they lived peacefully in the islamic state with no pressure to convert whatsoever. thus the death penalty applied to their crimes.. the offer of amnesty if they accepted islam is something which they were lucky to have.. otherwise they would all have just been put to the sword like their law states.. if you have a problem with that, then go blame the jewish law itself..

the fact remains that had they not committed the crime, they wouldnt be executed.. thus it is very clear that islam doesnt compel people to become muslims or give them death as without the crime theyd have survived and still been jews..

if it was compulsion then surely they'd have been put in that position when the muslims first came.

if you want to compare that to the christians behaviour over time where they have forcibly converted jews to christianity and if they refused killed them simply because they were jews.. that is compulsion..

wow, did this get off topic.

i clicked on this topic thinking i'm going to read about the camden school, but instead i find this argument over compulsion in religion and the jews and muslims. it's an interesting read.

but here's my take on it.

there's an easy way to settle this, and whether malik or sprintcyclist is right. and that's finding out when the execution of the jews took place.

was it immediately when the muslims came into power? or was it after the jews committed the treason?

if it occured when the muslims first came into power, then it would be compulsion in religion.

but if it occurred after the treason, then it would be a case of the treason being the reason for the execution, not for them being jewish. so if they were executed for being jews, then why did the jews and muslims live together for a period of time with no problems?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 11:33am:


they were given that option. i agree.. but that is not compelling someone to become muslim because they were free to practice their religion under the protection of the islamic state and if they had not committed the crime theyd have been able to continue on life as jews with no harm coming to them.

the quranic ayat your referring to regarding compulsion of religion being forbidden was not broken because it refers to going to a people of another religion and forcing them to accept islam and not accepting their right to live safely and freely practicing their own religion. this was not the case with the banu qurayza because they were able to practice their religion safely under the islamic state. they were sentenced to death for treason and not for being jewish.

if they were sentenced to death for being jewish and given the option of accepting islam to save themselves that would be compelling them according to the ayat you are referring to. i believe that was the 'christian' way of conversion throughout history.

thus the answer is no, according to the verse revealed they were not compelled as if they had not committed the crime of treason they'd have lived on happily being jews.

i don't know how much clearer i can make that for you..

It does seem pretty disingenuous of people to pretend not to understand that people react badly, when a vastly alien culture, namely Islamic, wishes to come to their area, and they are then expected to place the needs of that culture, above their own culture.

We see it over and over, and I really wish that we had better planning so that people from different cultures would be encouraged to mix more, rather than set up what turn out to be isolated enclaves, where they can promote a culture transposed from a different society, above ours, and what should be, their own.

With other cultures we saw a generational change between the new migrants, and their kids, who went to the same schools as everyone else, who played sport together, worked and played, and adopted the australian culture, while maintaining a respect and affection for the culture their parents came from..

What we are seeing with muslim communities all over the world, is that they are coming to countries and promoting an isolated, Islamic sub-culture, within the host nation. Most often they are highly derogatory about this culture, of the country which has given them the opportunity to live in it.

To further promote this isolationist stance by sending their kids to Islamic schools will only deepen the divide, and delay the possibility of harmonious integration with the broader community.

muso wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 2:09pm:



Fair enough muso, but to make the point about the barbarity of crusading christians, while being totally valid, it does not address the current issue of barbaric Islamist Jihadists, whose behaviour would mimic that of earlier religious barbarians.
The barbarians are at the gate, shall we make them a cup of tea?


Pretending that the muslim population does not get affected by the continual propaganda from these extremists is naive, if not seriously deluded.
When the twin towers fell, thousands, if not, millions of muslims danced in the streets, even those that displayed no overt joy at the massacre, still held a respectful understanding for the jihadists who perpetrated the atrocity.
Unfortunately, Islamism, is a part of Islam, and until they put their foot down and wipe it out, they should not expect to be openly accepted anywhere that is populated by "western scum", whom Islamists wish to murder.

Yes.

Expanded to mean on a cultural level, not an individual level.

Why would you wish to create a special place for training people to hate and despise us?

I hear muslims in australia complain about their lack of rights, and I say to them, go to Islamic countries and test out your rights there.
Free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, even sexual freedoms, are pretty hard to come by over there, with a state of continual insecurity about what someone may say about you to get you stoned(and not 'stoned' in a good way!

muso wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 2:09pm:


I agree. Onya Malik!