Australian Politics Forum - Islam; Who's in charge?

mozzaok

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male

Islam; Who's in charge?
May 31^st, 2008 at 1:56pm

Apparently it is anyone who claims to have a direct link to the intentions of Allah, by having read his book.

That is why we have ludicrous, hateful scum, justifying the rape of women because of the fact that they choose not to wear a tent and mask for an outfit.
Anyone with the ability to read the book, is then entitled to spread whatever message of hate or violence that they extract from said writings.
Start a Jihad, beat your wife,marry a few extra wives and beat them too, chop off a few hands, stone adultresses, become a suicide bomber, etc.
This is just an example of some of the loving advice being given out to young muslims, by their respected teachers.

Who apart from me has a problem with anybody teaching that sort of garbage to kids??

Quite a few, if we are honest with ourselves, and stop pandering to the ridiculous opinion that all cultures and beliefs deserve to be respected.
Rape, wife beating, polygamy, terrorism, war and murder, anti-semitism are not high on my list of things I wish to respect.

I think that a big part of the problem with Islam, is the fact that they have no supreme theological ruler who can tell these individual, extremist, hate mongers to pull their heads in, and to stop promoting these messages of separation from their host cultures, and hatred and intolerance toward them. They need someone to tell them it is not cool to preach hate and violence.

Is it any wonder that ordinary citizens are fed up with a group migrating to our country, deriding and ignoring our values, demanding we change our customs to fit in with their beliefs, and expect exemption from the law, in regard to promoting their messages of violence and hatred, and then demand that we respect them, and their beliefs?

Well I say to them, "After You!"
You show respect for our culture and our customs.
You follow our laws.
You police your extremists, who literally want to kill us, and our kids, for not being the same as them.
Stop hiding, protecting and encouraging, even by tacit understanding, these nutty extremist bastards, and then we may start to develop a relationship where we can respect you equally, as good, honest, law abiding Aussies.
But before that can happen, you must earn it.

Back to top

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 40662
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #1 - May 31^st, 2008 at 4:45pm

If they did as you suggest, I'ld be fine to have them in Aussie.
But if they did that, they would be breaking the koran.

At least some of them have the guts to stand up and say what their goal is.

Bring in the wiccans, pagans, athiests, agnostics, buddhists and satanists by the boat load.
They're fine and pose no threat to anyone.
I particularily like the wiccans and athiests. Just good people to chat and live with.
Pagans and agnostics are a bit wishywashy, but that's not at all a drama !!!

Back to top

Modern Classic Right Wing

IP Logged

Malik Shakur

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 799
Auckland, New Zealand
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #2 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 1:11am

mozzaok wrote on May 31^st, 2008 at 1:56pm:

Apparently it is anyone who claims to have a direct link to the intentions of Allah, by having read his book.

That is why we have ludicrous, hateful scum, justifying the rape of women because of the fact that they choose not to wear a tent and mask for an outfit.
Anyone with the ability to read the book, is then entitled to spread whatever message of hate or violence that they extract from said writings.
Start a Jihad, beat your wife,marry a few extra wives and beat them too, chop off a few hands, stone adultresses, become a suicide bomber, etc.
This is just an example of some of the loving advice being given out to young muslims, by their respected teachers.

Who apart from me has a problem with anybody teaching that sort of garbage to kids??

Quite a few, if we are honest with ourselves, and stop pandering to the ridiculous opinion that all cultures and beliefs deserve to be respected.
Rape, wife beating, polygamy, terrorism, war and murder, anti-semitism are not high on my list of things I wish to respect.

I think that a big part of the problem with Islam, is the fact that they have no supreme theological ruler who can tell these individual, extremist, hate mongers to pull their heads in, and to stop promoting these messages of separation from their host cultures, and hatred and intolerance toward them. They need someone to tell them it is not cool to preach hate and violence.

Is it any wonder that ordinary citizens are fed up with a group migrating to our country, deriding and ignoring our values, demanding we change our customs to fit in with their beliefs, and expect exemption from the law, in regard to promoting their messages of violence and hatred, and then demand that we respect them, and their beliefs?

Well I say to them, "After You!"
You show respect for our culture and our customs.
You follow our laws.
You police your extremists, who literally want to kill us, and our kids, for not being the same as them.
Stop hiding, protecting and encouraging, even by tacit understanding, these nutty extremist bastards, and then we may start to develop a relationship where we can respect you equally, as good, honest, law abiding Aussies.
But before that can happen, you must earn it.

To your first statement: False, no one can be in charge simply by claiming a direct connection to God by simply reading the Qur'an.

To your second statement: Islam doesn't encourage beating one's wife/wives nor rape. In fact it condemns both and there have severe punishments. The punishment for rape can be as serious as having one's hands and feet cut off and being left in the desert, or being crucified.

Regarding stoning of adulteresses, the hadd punishment of stoning applies both to women AND men who cheat on their partners so please don't try and make it look like it's something exclusively for women. And when it comes to any such thing there needs to be four reliable people who witnessed this incident to testify in a court regarding the matter. You see the punishment for adultery or anything else that carries a penalty like you've mentioned is not necessarily there because of the crime, but think about it this way: If you cheat on your wife or husband in a private place where there can't be four witnesses then obviously the punishment of stoning can't apply.. The punishment is actually because someone did the crime, and were so arrogant about it that they wanted to flaunt it in front of everyone else. That is a danger to not only themselves but also to the sanctity of society and thus is punishable by stoning.

I do agree that there are minute elements within the Muslim community that are extreme and promote violence, and certainly I have seen this in every community and not only in the Muslim community. I don't think it's appropriate to paint all of the Muslims with the same brush regarding this as you seem to be doing. I do also think that it is necessary for the government to stop allowing the Saudi Arabian government and other Wahabi organisations from setting up schools and funding imams in Australia. It only breeds hate and leads to more conflict. But does the Australian government have the guts to refuse the Saudi wahabi a voice in Australia.

Perhaps if we really want to see change and really want to see the extremists dealt with we need to stop being hypocritical and stop supporting all of the dictatorships in the Middle East, instead of being picky and choosey on which tyrant we support.. Let the Middle East sort their own mess out and they will come to democracy and freedom willingly, if you impose it on them they will fight it. If we stop supporting the tyrants there then we wouldn't have the problem with extremism we have now.

Regarding migrants coming in and integrating into society I completely agree. I think that people who don't respect the laws and customs of the land should be sent home. But I guarantee you its not only a few Muslims that will be sent home, its also people from other countries and religions too.. And I'm cool with that. But we also need to address the issue of racism that we have here. We can't be one sided to say that it's only the immigrants fault. Racism is a contributing factor to this equation and even when Christian Greeks came into this country (like my grandparents) there was a huge amount of racism against them. That can cause reactions from the Migrants including counter racism and supremacy

Back to top

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 40662
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #3 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 4:26am

malik - please interperet these quotes for me.

"Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. 4:34

Back to top

Modern Classic Right Wing

IP Logged

mozzaok

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #4 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 7:34am

Thanks for the reply malik.

You missed my point, re: who's in charge, I was pointing out that nobody is.
Therefore every nutbag can claim to be on a divine mission, with no person or Islamic authority able to contradict him.

All religions have extremists, but the mainstream religions have a system to denounce them, if they get out of line, so that the rank and file do not get led off track.

As for men being stoned for adultery, can you provide an example where it has happened? We regularly have reports of women murdered by various forms of torture in Islamic countries, for sexual indiscretions, like forgetting to zip up their tent, or being raped, but I have never heard of a single case in my lifetime, of a male being subjected to similiar treatment.

I fully agree with your remarks about the Saudis, financing and promoting their own brand of totalitarianism, and it exemplifies the hypocrisy of the west where they vilify everything Iranian, but ignore the deeds of the Saudis.

I do not wish to vilify all muslims, but the reality is that because they do not regulate themselves, the abhorrent behaviour of the minority has imposed itself on our culture to the point where we must address it, because the muslim world is not doing so.

I believe in live and let live, but while some out there wish me, and all non-muslims like me, dead, for not believing in Allah, then we all have a problem.

Back to top

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

IP Logged

Malik Shakur

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 799
Auckland, New Zealand
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #5 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 1:49pm

mozzaok wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 3:04pm:

As for men being stoned for adultery, can you provide an example where it has happened? We regularly have reports of women murdered by various forms of torture in Islamic countries, for sexual indiscretions, like forgetting to zip up their tent, or being raped, but I have never heard of a single case in my lifetime, of a male being subjected to similiar treatment.

Stoned to death for committing adultery

Dylan Welch
April 3, 2008 - 8:45AM

Advertisement
A man and a woman have reportedly been stoned to death by the Taliban after being found guilty of adultery by a tribal court in Pakistan's border region.

The stoning was carried out in a tribal area on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan where the Taliban has a strong presence, Pakistani newspaper Dawn reported.

The killings are the first recorded incident of death by stoning by the militants, who usually put accused before firing squads, the newspaper stated.

The pair had been captured by the Taliban after eloping about two weeks ago from a border area known as the Mohmand Agency.

A complaint was made that the woman, married to another man, had been kidnapped but it was later reported that she had actually eloped.

A spokesman for the local Taliban told the newspaper the militants had captured them as they returned from Karachi.

They tried the couple, found them guilty and sentenced them to death by stoning.

After the executions were carried out the man's body was handed over to his relatives. The body of the woman was buried in the area by local people, the newspaper stated.

This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/04/03/1206851052700.html

Iran confirms man stoned to death for adultery

The Associated Press
Tuesday, July 10, 2007
TEHRAN, Iran: A man convicted of adultery was stoned to death last week in a village in northern Iran, an Iranian judiciary spokesman said Tuesday, the first time in years that the country has confirmed such an execution.

Jafar Kiani was stoned to death Thursday in Aghchekand, 200 kilometers (124 miles) west of Tehran, said spokesman Ali Reza Jamshidi.

Death sentences are carried out in Iran after they are upheld by the Supreme Court. Under Iran's Islamic law, adultery is punishable by stoning.

Jamshidi did not elaborate on how the stoning was carried out. Under Islamic rulings, a man is usually buried up to his waist, while a woman is buried up to her neck with her hands also buried. Those carrying out the verdict then throw stones until the condemned dies.

International human rights groups have long criticized stoning in Iran as a "cruel and barbaric" punishment.

Before Iran's confirmation, U.N. human rights chief Louise Arbour condemned the execution, her spokesman said.

"The execution has apparently gone ahead despite Iran's moratorium on execution by stoning, a moratorium that had been in effect since 2002," said Jose Diaz of U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights.

"Stoning is in clear violation of international law," Diaz said in Geneva. He said Arbour considered stoning to be a form of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment that is prohibited under an international treaty that Iran has signed.

In Oslo, Norway, Iran's ambassador was summoned by Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere to protest the stoning, the Norwegian Foreign Ministry said.

Stoere was "deeply upset" that the death penalty had been carried out and called stoning an "inhumane and barbaric method of punishment," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Frode Andersen.

The reported execution came two weeks after international pressure, including protests from Norway, caused Iranian officials to delay carrying out the sentence against Kiani and his female companion, Mokarrameh Ebrahimi, who also was sentenced to death by stoning. It was not known if a date had been set for her execution.

Norway's embassy in Teheran will try to arrange for representatives of the international community to visit Ebrahimi in prison, the Norwegian foreign ministry said.

The couple had reportedly been imprisoned for 11 years.

Stoning was widely imposed in the early years after the 1979 Islamic revolution that toppled the pro-Western Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and brought hard-line clerics to power. But in recent years, it has seldom been applied, although the government rarely confirms when it carries out stoning sentences.

There is no official report of the last time Iran stoned someone to death, but there were unconfirmed media reports that a couple was stoned in 2006 in the northeastern town of Mashhad.

Women's rights activists headed by feminist lawyer Shadi Sadr have been campaigning to have the sentence removed from Iran's statutes.

Iran's reformist legislators have demanded an end to death by stoning as a punishment for adultery, but opposition from hard-line clerics sidelined their efforts.

Capital offenses in Iran include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, serious drug trafficking, adultery or prostitution, treason and espionage.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/10/africa/ME-GEN-Iran-Stoning.php

Back to top

IP Logged

Malik Shakur

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 799
Auckland, New Zealand
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #6 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 3:07pm

mozzaok wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 3:04pm:

Thanks for the reply malik.

You missed my point, re: who's in charge, I was pointing out that nobody is.
Therefore every nutbag can claim to be on a divine mission, with no person or Islamic authority able to contradict him.

All religions have extremists, but the mainstream religions have a system to denounce them, if they get out of line, so that the rank and file do not get led off track.

I would disagree with the notion that this is limited to Islam, you are delusional if you believe that Islam is the only religion that has similar problems. Perhaps if you go to the Middle East you will see the Jewish Hill Top Youth and Kahanists in Israel who want to drive all of the Arabs out of most of the Middle East and destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock so that they can establish their temple and "Greater Israel" and so that their Massiah will come and kill the non believers.

There are Christian groups in the Bible belt that believe similar things and have no problem in killing non believers.

We do have a system of hierarchy in Islam but the problem is that we have no Islamic State where such matters can be dealt with. Thus no juristiction.

And we do denounce extremism and terrorism, but such things simply do not get on the news. You just need to search further to see that we do.

mozzaok wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 3:04pm:

I fully agree with your remarks about the Saudis, financing and promoting their own brand of totalitarianism, and it exemplifies the hypocrisy of the west where they vilify everything Iranian, but ignore the deeds of the Saudis.

I do not wish to vilify all muslims, but the reality is that because they do not regulate themselves, the abhorrent behaviour of the minority has imposed itself on our culture to the point where we must address it, because the muslim world is not doing so.

You see the problem is that they are both connected. How on earth can we sort these terrorists and extremists out when the west supports the very tyrants who allow them to spread such ideas of hate? If the west stopped interfering in the Middle East the people themselves would establish democracy and drive out the leaders who allow the terrorists to act from their land.

Right now governments like those in Egypt and Saudi Arabia are supported by the West with huge amounts of military funding and training. The West gives legitimacy to such tyrants because the West benefits from their friendship. That is the joke, everyone in the Middle east laughs when they hear that we want to bring them democracy lol, but at the same time when we want to bring them that 'democracy' we support the leaders who brutally torture and murder their citizens who want democracy. The Middle East would embrace democracy and to an extent Western freedoms if the West stopped being hypocritical and choosey on who should have those freedoms.

The question is, why wont the West let us stop these tyrants from allowing people to spread such hate? I know the answer, do you?

Back to top

IP Logged

Malik Shakur

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 799
Auckland, New Zealand
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #7 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 3:19pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 4:26am:

malik - please interperet these quotes for me.

"Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. 4:34

Sprint have you read Tabari and seen those for statements for yourself?

I do believe I have also clarified the issue of beating women in Islam in another thread. But I'll clarify it again for you.

And I really think you do not understand the proper meaning behind the verses you are referring to in the Qur'an when it comes to beating.

Let's take a look at the verse properly.

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

It says in the verse that if your wife is disobedient to admonish her, if she continues to do so then to refuse to share your bed with her.. If that continues and you find use in it to 'beat' her lightly. But what does it mean by beat?

In this context and by the examples of the prophet we are told that the force one should use is as if u were to beat her with a feather and even then not on the head, face or front of the body.

It is to be used in only extreme cases where it is the last option before divorcing her. It is done not to cause physical harm but to shock her into seeing the gravity of the situation.

If one goes through their marriage being very patient with their wife no matter the headaches she gives him, but then in one situation finds his wife to be doing something so abhorrent and not reforming after admonishing her and refusing to share his bed with her. Then one is allowed to 'beat' her lightly to get the message across that if she continues it will result in divorce. If up until that point in time you have been completely patient with her no matter her attitude then even if you did 'beat' her as softly as mentioned it would shock her enough to know that you are very serious.

I will also mention that the prophet Muhammad pbuh never beat his wives, he showed us that such behaviour was even abhorrent to him. He was the most patient and merciful of all men.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40662 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #8 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 6:07pm Malik - thanks for sticking around and saying your point of view. It is rare for any muslim to come here, and rarer for any to stay. Good on you. (Course, this does not mean I agree with what you say, it means I support and encourage your right to say it.)
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

mozzaok

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #9 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 7:58pm

Thanks again Malik.
Your posts regarding the stoning of men was interesting, and I had not seen them reported.
The fact is that in both cases it was couples, whose crime was to fall in love, and to try and escape from a barbaric and primitive, medieval system which sought to torture them to death for this crime, which would be accepted as mundane, if unfortunate, in any other culture but that of Islam.
To see that they are killed in such a brutal way, for what is not really a crime in the mind of any, but the most extreme religious fanatics, only goes to highlight the cultural divide that lays between Islam, and the rest of the world.

The parenthisised qualifications you used to try and make the Islamic practice of wife beating seem less barbaric and backward than it is does not really bear any resemblance to the realities of what actually occurs.
I hardly think an enraged husband, who thinks of his wife as his inferior, and his possession, is going to ask her to pass the feather while he gives her a sound thrashing with it.
What you are offering up is in fact merely apologetic, and inaccurate justification of something which, either you know in your heart to be wrong, or you know to be so abhorrent to the general population that you seek to disguise your true beliefs.

Still, like sprint I gratefully acknowledge your willingness to put forward your point in an open forum where you obviously expect to draw criticisms, thank you.

Back to top

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 38514
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #10 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 9:20pm

Quote:

In this context and by the examples of the prophet we are told that the force one should use is as if u were to beat her with a feather and even then not on the head, face or front of the body.

It is to be used in only extreme cases where it is the last option before divorcing her. It is done not to cause physical harm but to shock her into seeing the gravity of the situation.

How would fluffing a feather, not on the head, face or front of the body.....i.e. on the back regions of a woman bring said woman to submission?

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #11 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 10:03pm Mozz, are you suggestiong we should have some kind of law governing who can preach? You missed my point, re: who's in charge, I was pointing out that nobody is. Who is in charge of Christianity?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40662 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #12 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 10:17pm Christ.
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #13 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 10:39pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 10:17pm: Christ. About as idiotic an answer as you can get. And you want Muslims to take you seriously and debate?
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #14 - Jun 1^st, 2008 at 10:41pm

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 10:03pm:

Mozz, are you suggestiong we should have some kind of law governing who can preach?

You missed my point, re: who's in charge, I was pointing out that nobody is.

Who is in charge of Christianity?

I refrained from asking that question as it seemed too obvious. There is no singular voice for all of Christendom and there hasn't been for over 1000 years.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 8:03am by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged