Australian Politics Forum - Islam; Who's in charge?

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #30 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 1:17pm Sprint, check the thread title.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #31 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 1:50pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 1:10pm:

Hi Helian, yes I was aware peter meant rock.

Thanks for repeating the rest of that verse, I should have included it. It is significant. very interesting.
A few verses later on he also says
"Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

hey, what has this got to do with islam ?????
Who cares.

So you would agree that Christian text appears to contradict itself?

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #32 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 1:57pm

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 1:02pm:

It's a bit of a stretch to go from Peter to the Pope. It hardly gives greater legitimacy to a universal Christian leader than to an Islamic one.

Not really. Peter set up his mission in Rome and the Bishop of Rome is his direct spiritual descendant. The title or Pope or Father is assigned to the Bishop of Rome.

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freediver

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #33 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:00pm

Is there anything in the Bible about direct spiritual descendants? Is that like reincarnation? Why is the fact that Peter set up his mission in Rome relevant? Surely you don't have to move to the same town to be his reincarnation? It sounds more like empty symbolism to me.

How come Peter can have self proclaimed reincarnations, but Mohammed cannot?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #34 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:22pm

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:00pm:

Is there anything in the Bible about direct spiritual descendants? Is that like reincarnation? Why is the fact that Peter set up his mission in Rome relevant? Surely you don't have to move to the same town to be his reincarnation? It sounds more like empty symbolism to me.

How come Peter can have self proclaimed reincarnations, but Mohammed cannot?

It's not reincarnation. Each Bishop-to-be is ordained by the 'laying on of hands' of the Bishop in authority, thus the spiritual authority of Peter (or any one of the 12 apostles) is passed on.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #35 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:24pm Can you point out the relevant biblical texts? Also, I don't get why you think Islam can't have equivalent leaders, given the references to the caliphate etc.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #36 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:26pm freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:24pm: Can you point out the relevant biblical texts? Also, I don't get why you think Islam can't have equivalent leaders, given the references to the caliphate etc. Did I say they can't?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #37 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:33pm Sorry, that was mozz. Anyway, can you point out the biblical references that legitimise the position of pope?
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40662 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #38 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:34pm helian - oh, there are many places where the bible appears to contradict itself ! normally on a closer check, it is sensible. Some bits still confuse me as to what they mean, or why say/do that. Some bits I have no iea about !! (eg, boook of revelation)
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #39 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:41pm freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:33pm: Sorry, that was mozz. Anyway, can you point out the biblical references that legitimise the position of pope? I already have (see further back). The Pope is the direct spiritual descendant of Peter, that is the Catholic claim for the primacy of the Pope.
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #40 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:46pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 2:34pm:

helian - oh, there are many places where the bible appears to contradict itself !
normally on a closer check, it is sensible.

Some bits still confuse me as to what they mean, or why say/do that.
Some bits I have no iea about !! (eg, boook of revelation)

Perhaps then it is possible the Koran appears to contradict itself?

How does anyone reconcile the descent of Jesus from Abraham without recognising Joseph as his natural father? (Matthew 1:16) and there are many other irreconcilable contradictions.

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #41 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 3:01pm

You said the Pope was the direct spiritual descendant of Peter. You did not provide anything to indicate that this is a legitimate or meaningful claim to make. What if some bloke came along saying he was te direct spiritual descendant of Jesus? How would you distinguish the two claims?

In those Bible quotes, Jesus was referring to Peter, not Peter and all of his direct spiritual descendants as proclaimed by whoever puts themselves in charge of the laying on of the hands.

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #42 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 3:17pm

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 3:01pm:

You said the Pope was the direct spiritual descendant of Peter. You did not provide anything to indicate that this is a legitimate or meaningful claim to make. What if some bloke came along saying he was te direct spiritual descendant of Jesus? How would you distinguish the two claims?

In those Bible quotes, Jesus was referring to Peter, not Peter and all of his direct spiritual descendants as proclaimed by whoever puts themselves in charge of the laying on of the hands.

In the next verse he declares that all things bound and loosed by Peter on earth are bound and loosed in Heaven. The Bishop declared by Peter to be his inheritor is bound in heaven and earth and therefore inherits his primacy upon Peter's death.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48830 At my desk.	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #43 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 3:25pm Who was that bishop? Where in the Bible does it say that Peter bound a never ending line of direct spiritual descendants who would have his authority?
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40662 Gender:	Re: Islam; Who's in charge? Reply #44 - Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 3:28pm the koran also has abrogation. ie , it is ok to change your mind, newer ideas write out older ones. a mite unnecessary for one who was given the ideas from god or an angel or whoever. the line from abraham is also given through marys lineage.
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