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Islam; Who's in charge? (Read 32081 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #45 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 3:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 3:25pm:
Who was that bishop? Where in the Bible does it say that Peter bound a never ending line of direct spiritual descendants who would have his authority?


Pope St. Linus (67AD-76AD)

When Peter declared his spiritual descendent he had the authority to pass on primacy. There were no exceptions to his authority - that which he bound or loosed on Earth was bound or loosed in Heaven.


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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #46 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 3:57pm
 
Is there anything about Linus in the Bible?
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #47 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 4:49pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 3:28pm:
the koran also has abrogation. ie , it is ok to change your mind, newer ideas write out older ones.
a mite unnecessary for one who was given the ideas from god or an angel or whoever.


the line from abraham is also given through marys lineage.


The New Testament is considered by Christians to be the word of God, so if it contradicts itself, then God contradicts himself.

Descent from Abraham in Matthew is given through Joseph.

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #48 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 4:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 3:57pm:
Is there anything about Linus in the Bible?


No. But if Peter passed his complete authority to Linus on earth, then according to scripture it would be recognised in Heaven.

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #49 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 4:53pm
 
What other documents survive from that time? Is this something to do with the 'holy document of vatican law' and the giant spider?
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #50 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 5:54pm
 
Who gives a rat's about all that religious bull, it is all totally meaningless, and deceitful anyway.

As far as who put the pope in charge?, Who cares.
The point was they have a strict hierarchy, as do all other christian religions, apart from the most despicable US/Evangelical varieties.\

As for FD saying that not being able to send my child to public school, and not have to choose between religious indoctrination, or ostracisation, does not impinge on my rights, I reply; "F You", and "F" all religious pricks who push their  sick death cult fantasies on kids.
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #51 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 6:02pm
 
As for FD saying that not being able to send my child to public school, and not have to choose between religious indoctrination, or ostracisation, does not impinge on my rights

That's not what I said.

As far as who put the pope in charge?, Who cares.
The point was they have a strict hierarchy, as do all other christian religions


Ah, but they don't. There are plenty of small unaffiliated Christian groups.

Judaism is even worse. They only ten ten or twelve men to set up a new congregation, with no heirachy at all, just tradition.

I believe many 'eastern' religions have little heirachy.
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #52 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 7:29pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 5:54pm:
Who gives a rat's about all that religious bull, it is all totally meaningless, and deceitful anyway.

As far as who put the pope in charge?, Who cares.
The point was they have a strict hierarchy, as do all other christian religions, apart from the most despicable US/Evangelical varieties.\



There are many examples of churches that don't have a strict hierarchy which is why the CofE in Australia can ordain women clergy despite what other Anglican/Episcopalian Churches in other countries think about it. They can change allegiance as well.

And those despicable US/Evangelical varieties exist despite the fact the pope is in Rome just as Islamic extremist sects exist and always will despite the vast majority of Muslims being moderate. Remember its Muslims themselves who are the greatest victims of Islamic extremism.
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« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2008 at 7:37pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #53 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 8:14pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 10:52am:
malik - that is not what the quotes i gave from the koran say.

they say beat the woman if she is disobedient and a woman is worth 1/2 a man.


Let's take a look again at what you posted.

"Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. 4:34


The first one is actually not in the Qur'an, it is allegedly from the Series of History books written by Tabari. I have not read this book but would be surprised if that is actually what he said. From my understanding the quote is from the Farewell Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. I have seen the farewell sermon many times and have not seen this quote in there. So I'm a bit skeptical about that quote, especially the part about comparing women to domestic animals. I think I'll wait for more evidence on that one mate.

The next one you posted was indeed a Qur'anic verse, although not complete. I did indeed provide you with a proper interpretation of the verse and in addition to that I explained it properly. I must remind you that the Qur'an was not revealed in the English and that what you are reading is simply a translation of it. A translation from Arabic to English is going to lose some of it's meaning, in addition to that it is important to search for context, something which  you have failed to do, even though I have tried to make it clear for you about the application of this verse but obviously you'd rather read it and believe what you WANT to believe of Islam and not what Islam really is. Perhaps this is why Muslims don't like talking to you about these issues.

Also you stated that women are considered to be worth half of a man, I actually didn't see the verse your referring to, can you please paste it again?

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #54 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 9:36pm
 
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children:
to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females
, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.



2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and
men are a degree above them
. Allah is Mighty, Wise.



a translation tells the same story malik. beat the disobedient woman,
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« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2008 at 10:28pm by Sprintcyclist »  

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #55 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 9:51pm
 
Sprint that quote makes no sense at all. Did you try to translate it yourself?
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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #56 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 10:20pm
 
freediver - no I didn't.




Here is who is in charge of islam.
think they have misinterpereted it wrong ?
Go over and point out their errors to them.



"ISRAEL will soon disappear off the map and the "satanic power" of the United States faces destruction, Iran's President said today.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was speaking at a gathering of foreign guests marking this week's 19th anniversary of the death of Iran's late revolutionary leader, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, in 1989, the official IRNA news agency said.

"You should know that the criminal and terrorist Zionist regime which has 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes in its file has reached the end of its work and will soon disappear off the geographical scene,'' he said.

Turning to the United States, he said the era of decline and destruction of its "satanic power'' had begun and added: "The bell on the countdown of the destruction of the empire of power and wealth has begun to ring.''

Opposition to Israel is a fundamental principle in Shi'ite Muslim Iran, which backs Palestinian militants opposed to peace with the Jewish state.

A 2005 statement by Ahmadinejad saying that Israel should be "wiped off the map'' outraged the international community.

In April, a senior Iranian army commander said Iran will respond to any military attack from Israel by "eliminating'' it, in comments condemned by Washington.

The United States, which severed ties with Iran shortly after its 1979 Islamic revolution, is leading efforts to isolate Tehran over its disputed nuclear program.

Some analysts have speculated that Israel might attack Iran to stop its nuclear activities, which the West fears are a front for weapons development. Iran, which does not recognise Israel, insists it wants nuclear technology only for electricity.

Iran, the world's fourth-largest oil producer, says it has developed ballistic missiles able to hit Israel and US bases in the region.

Washington says it wants a diplomatic resolution to the nuclear dispute but has not ruled out military action if that fails. Tehran insists it will not bow to Western pressure. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23800073-12377,00.html

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #57 - Jun 2nd, 2008 at 11:24pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 10:20pm:
freediver - no I didn't.




Here is who is in charge of islam.
think they have misinterpereted it wrong ?
Go over and point out their errors to them.



"ISRAEL will soon disappear off the map and the "satanic power" of the United States faces destruction, Iran's President said today.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was speaking at a gathering of foreign guests marking this week's 19th anniversary of the death of Iran's late revolutionary leader, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, in 1989, the official IRNA news agency said.

"You should know that the criminal and terrorist Zionist regime which has 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes in its file has reached the end of its work and will soon disappear off the geographical scene,'' he said.

Turning to the United States, he said the era of decline and destruction of its "satanic power'' had begun and added: "The bell on the countdown of the destruction of the empire of power and wealth has begun to ring.''

Opposition to Israel is a fundamental principle in Shi'ite Muslim Iran, which backs Palestinian militants opposed to peace with the Jewish state.

A 2005 statement by Ahmadinejad saying that Israel should be "wiped off the map'' outraged the international community.

In April, a senior Iranian army commander said Iran will respond to any military attack from Israel by "eliminating'' it, in comments condemned by Washington.

The United States, which severed ties with Iran shortly after its 1979 Islamic revolution, is leading efforts to isolate Tehran over its disputed nuclear program.

Some analysts have speculated that Israel might attack Iran to stop its nuclear activities, which the West fears are a front for weapons development. Iran, which does not recognise Israel, insists it wants nuclear technology only for electricity.

Iran, the world's fourth-largest oil producer, says it has developed ballistic missiles able to hit Israel and US bases in the region.

Washington says it wants a diplomatic resolution to the nuclear dispute but has not ruled out military action if that fails. Tehran insists it will not bow to Western pressure. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23800073-12377,00.html



Ahmadinejad is not a cleric and is not 'in charge' of Islam, but I suspect you already know that. Got any quotes from the 'Christian' Pat Robertson?




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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #58 - Jun 3rd, 2008 at 12:15am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 9:36pm:
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children:
to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females
, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. 


Haha.. Yes you are absolutely right Sprint, daughters get half of the inheritance that the son's do. But do you know why that is?

It's because it is the role of the man to provide for his wife and family, the son's will need that money to pay for their weddings, buy a house for their family, provide for them etc. That portion of the inheritance is not his own, it's for him and his family. 

The daughter however, will marry a man who himself will look after her and will also inherit wealth to be able to provide for their family. She gains that inheritance from her family which even though is only half of what her brothers would receive is her property and no one else can touch it, not even her husband and he still has to provide for her.

So yes, when it comes to the inheritance, the girls get half the share that a boy would get. But that doesn't mean the girl is worth less as a human..


Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 9:36pm:
2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and
men are a degree above them
. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

a translation tells the same story malik. beat the disobedient woman,

The verse here that you are relating to is regarding divorce and on how the man has the right to pronounce divorce, where as the if the wife isn't happy in the marriage and she wants divorce has to get the marriage annulled or divorce granted by a Judge, that is to prevent women from proclaiming divorce on every single issue due to their being more likely to give such emotional responses. We hold the issue of divorce as a very serious issue.

If you had read the next verse you'd see the reason why, because within Islam if a man pronounces divorce 2 times to his wife, in separate situations he can take her back after each of those, but after that if he pronounces divorce again a third time they cannot remarry each other. This is to prevent men from taking the matter of divorce so lightly and to stop them using it against their wives as emotional blackmail as it can cause a great deal of distress to a woman.

Women can still get divorces, it's just achieved in a different way..

Also sprint, tell me.. Are you aware of what makes up Shariah law?

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Re: Islam; Who's in charge?
Reply #59 - Jun 3rd, 2008 at 7:10am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 2nd, 2008 at 4:53pm:
What other documents survive from that time? Is this something to do with the 'holy document of vatican law' and the giant spider?


What is the 'holy document of Vatican law' and the giant spider?
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