freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2008 at 2:25pm:

I have to interrupt you here I'm afraid, I was not quoting the Qur'an, but tafsir (or explanation of the Qur'an) hadith and other historical literature written by both Muslims and non Muslims.

Respected historians from both Muslim and non Muslim backgrounds both agree with the view that I have put here.

I agree JFK, accounts from days gone by can be notoriously inaccurate, why even in our relatively modern world, we can have gross inaccuracies represented as facts, for political reasons.

The Iranians still claim that the Shah murdered 60,000 to 70,000 people in his 15 year reign.
The actual figures were just over 300 from '63 to '78, and then about 2,800 during the actual fighting of the revolution.
So just over 3,000.

This obviously pales into insignificance, numerically speaking, when compared with the hundreds of thousands of dead in the time since the revolution.

Maybe it is not a sin to tell a lie in Islam? Like it is not a sin to blow people up, or hack their heads off maybe?

mozzaok wrote on Jun 7^th, 2008 at 6:01pm:


The Shah's full reign was from 1941 to 1979 (nearly 38 years). He was reinstalled by British inspired and US-planned-and-executed 'Operation Ajax' in 1953 requiring two coups to overthrow the democratically elected government of Mohammed Mosaddeq. What are the figures for his full reign including Mosaddeq himself?

Oh. I've just noticed that I've repeated what helian just wrote.

Lol. Great minds.....

sorry, I have been busy.

no, if malik did not start the thread desite my repeated invitations, don't see why I should continue.

remember, the winner writes the "history". 
Look at it logically, Who was the new kid on the block, hungry for war and jew hating?



[Allah] it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religions-- Koran 61:9

And thou wilt find [the Jews] greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters.-- Koran 2:96

O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given! Believe in what [Muslims] have revealed confirming that which ye possess, before We destroy countenances so as to confound them, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers (of old time). The commandment of Allah is always executed. - Koran 4:47

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. --Koran 5:51

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 11:54pm:

I didn't start the thread, I shouldn't have had to as you were the one bringing the battle of the trench up in a thread about camden. You highjacked it and every time I responded you said to start another thread, perhaps you should have have started another one. And when someone finally did start the thread, you now cower out because we all know that you're lying about your references.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 11:54pm:

Did u check the context or interpretation of these? Did you even check whether they were the proper Qur'anic verses? Not all of the ones u posted are 100% accurate and are missing parts and again it seem like you've slipped into the dirty tactic of quoting random verses. You tend to do that when you don't have the intellectual capability to debate the subject.

So now YOU stick to the topic on the battle of the trench. And provide some evidence or else whatever is left of your credibility on this forum will go out the window. For the quotes please start another thread.

I don't apologise for quoting the koran.

Want some precursor to the treachery of the trenches ?
It is a historical fact that in the ten years that Muhammad lived in Medina (622—632), he either sent out or went out on seventy—four raids, expeditions, or full—scale wars, which range from small assassination hit squads to the Tabuk Crusade.
Sometimes the expeditions did not result in violence, but a Muslim army always lurked in the background.  
These ten years did not know long stretches of peace.

typical that any comment against mohammad or the koran is deemed intolerant, whereas many learned muslim clerics repeatedly call for islam domination all over the whole world.
This is accepted as freedom of speech.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 8:27pm:

You don't need to apologise for quoting the Qur'an, we all know that the only reason you do it is because you don't have the intellectual capability to debate the Battle of the Trench, so you just try and discredit Islam by quoting the Qur'an out of context.


You forget to mention that before the Muslims had gone to Madinah, they were in Makkah, where they were exiled from the City, staying on the outskirts and forced to live there by the Pagans, only for declaring that there is only One God. For that they went through more than 10 years of hardships and oppression caused by the Pagans and the Muslims didn't even fight back once.

When they had gone to Madinah they lived for some time. The Muslims had encouraged Muhammad pbuh to fight the Pagans and raid their caravans to claim back the wealth that had been plundered from them, but Muhammad pbuh refused. Muhammad pbuh hated bloodshed and fought only when it was absolutely necessary, and only after God gave them the order to do so:
022.039-040
To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

These 74 raids, expiditions and full scale wars that you claim he partook in or ordered should not be surprising. The majority were reconnaisance missions, as any nation would send out to survey the areas around their city if they were at war (as they were with the Pagans who attacked them several times).

The Muslims fought in several major conflicts and I will name them for you:

Battle of Badr 2 A.H. (624 CE), this was when the Muslims attemtpted to raid a Pagan caravan that was returning from Syria, after having sold all of the worldly possessions the Muslims who fled Makkah. The Caravan was returning with enough weapons to equip a huge army that was intended to raid Madinah. Muhammad, with 300 other men went to capture this Caravan but it evaded them. The Pagans sent 1000 troops to the Wells of Badr to wipe the Muslims out but were defeated by Muhammad pbuh's army. Those Pagans captured were ransomed off and those who could not be ransomed due to the lack of money were free to leave after each of them taught 10 Muslims how to read and write. Those who could neither read or write, nor pay for their ransom were sent back to Makkah free.

Battle of Uhud 3 A.H. (625 CE), This was the Pagan retaliation for the Battle of Badr, it resulted in a tactical victory for the Pagans who had 3000 infantry and 200 cavalry outnumbering the Muslim forces of 1000 infantry and 2 cavalry. The Muslims were humiliated in this battle, with Muhammad pbuh himself being wounded. The loss was a result of the Muslim archers leaving the hill on which they had superiority to collect war booty after the Pagans had been routed and then a counter attack was launched by Khalid bin Walid. The Prophet pbuh lost his Uncle Hamza in this battle who was assasinated by Wahsi, an Abyssinian slave given freedom and a bounty of gold for his execution by Hind bint Utbah as he killed both her brother and father in the Battle of Badr. On the battlefield Hind cut off Hamza's ears and nose and wore them as a necklace. She then cooked his liver and ate it.

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