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Ban religious schools? (Read 44221 times)
freediver
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Ban religious schools?
Jun 12th, 2008 at 1:23am
 
This idea was suggested by Mozz in the Cambden thread, shortly after he suggested restricting certain citizen's right to choose where to live.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1211882321/166#166

I am opposed to 'ALL' religious schools, and only think that they should be allowed NOWHERE, EVER.
School should be school, church should be church, if you want to brainwash kids with your crazy rat arsed religious mumbo jumbo, then do it on the weekend, on your own time, with your own money.


This suggestion is an attack on the separation of church and state and religious freedom. It is hypocritical in the sense that it is a form of militant, fundamentalist atheism that is no less dangerous than the more familiar forms of religious fundamentalism that atheists constantly cry foul over.

Separation of church and state does not just rule out state sanctioning of religion or religion taking over the state, it also rules out state attacks on religion. It is just as important to protect the church from the state as it is to protect the state from the church. They are separate institutions with different roles to play in society that must be kept at arm’s length from each other.

Whether a child receives a religious education is a matter for the child and their parent. The state has no role at all to play in this and should not try to interfere in the rights of people to practice their religion. It is also not the state’s role to enforce a single type of education on the public. It is reasonable for the state to set a minimum curriculum so that children are not deprived of basic knowledge, but it must not rule out extra education, be it in music, sport, religion, art, drama etc. The state has no role in dictating which days of the week parents provide religious education and whether this education is provided at home, at a church, at a private school, in a public park or wherever they choose. Denying parents the right to send their children to a private school where they will receive a religious education is no better than denying parents the right to send their child to a school that does not teach religion. It is just as dangerous for our society.

Communist regimes typically go down this path in their quest for total control over people’s opinions. A church is dangerous to an oppressive government that denies people basic rights because it provides a powerful institution through which people can demand their freedom. In order to deny people some basic human rights, a much broader range of rights must be denied, including freedom of religion. Whether it be democratic, economic, or religious rights, the abolition of any basic human right inevitable leads to the erosion of all rights.

Fundamentalist atheists would have people put in jail for teaching religion on the wrong day of the week. They would have the government decide whether religious beliefs are appropriate for people to pass onto their children and start interfering with parents who teach their children the wrong views. Just because atheism is the ‘new kid on the block’ in terms of organized belief movements does not mean that it is benign and that extremists do not pose a threat to society.

Atheists often try to play a ‘sheep in wool’s clothing’ by pretending to be someone who has no strong opinion regarding the existence of God. A person who lacks such a belief or strong opinion is agnostic. An atheist has a strong opinion and their view is no more rational, objective or evidence based than that of a religious person. They are just as prone to zealotry as religious people, but lack any kind of institution to keep that zealotry in check. Communism is the closest thing we currently have to an atheist institution. Atheist fundamentalists have no qualms about using force to impose their views on others as soon as they can gain control of government, whether it be via a majority denying rights to a minority in a democracy, or via a ruthless dictatorship. As with any fundamentalist, the ends justifies the means.

It is not a person’s views or beliefs that matter, but how far they are prepared to go to use force to deny people the right to share alternative views. Fundamentalists tend to fear such alternative opinions as dangerous and will try to paint everyone who shares that view with the same brush, for example by equating them with other extremists and refusing to distinguish an extremist from the other side and a benign alternative world view. To them, anyone who shares the alternative view is ‘the enemy’ and is a threat to them which must be countered by any means available. Fundamentalists will not be appeased if you give into their initial demands. The more you give, the more they take, until what were made to seem like reasonable restrictions turn into the complete erosion of your rights.

There is more than one type of fundamentalist out there, and they are all dangerous. The one thing they have in common is that they all constantly point to other fundamentalists to justify their position and to try to get you too scared to pay attention to their own extremism.
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mozzaok
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #1 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 9:18am
 
You must have been pissed to trot out that steaming pile of crap FD.
I will be back tonight to demolish your ridiculous and spurious claims.

I hope I am not infringing upon your right to be totally incorrect.
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muso
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #2 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 9:52am
 
As a non-militant atheist, I think that religion should be taught in a balanced way. My only objection is to having publically funded schools that teach only the "One True Church' or "One true Mosque' version without allowing room for questioning. "Ok kids - We are all (say) Apostolics here, and this is what we as Apostolics believe. Everybody else is going to hell"

My personal take is that it's irresponsible and dangerous to teach a totally exclusive view of religion that has no respect for the beliefs of others.

On the other hand, I think it would also be irresponsible not to teach kids about religions at all. There is a fine balance and most religious schools in Australia seem to take that approach.

I'm not sure if that's already legislated, but I seem to remember one Islamic School in Perth being shut down for not providing a balanced education.

Quote:
Atheists often try to play a ‘sheep in wool’s clothing’ by pretending to be someone who has no strong opinion regarding the existence of God. A person who lacks such a belief or strong opinion is agnostic....


Sounds like a cardboard cutout caricature of an Atheist, as described by a Theist.  FD, I've no doubt you were provoked, but you seriously need to chill out Smiley

Quote:
Fundamentalists tend to fear such alternative opinions as dangerous and will try to paint everyone who shares that view with the same brush, for example by equating them with other extremists and refusing to distinguish an extremist from the other side and a benign alternative world view.


Read the paragraph that you wrote prior to that. Isn't that a prime example of painting everyone with an alternative view with the same brush?

This stuff is totally uncharacteristic of your other posts.

Institution can promote extremism probably just as much or more than a lack of institution. You just need to look at the Brethren or Islamic extremism to see that.

- Maybe you just had a bad day.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2008 at 11:33am by muso »  

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freediver
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #3 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 12:09pm
 
My only objection is to having publically funded schools that teach only the "One True Church' or "One true Mosque' version without allowing room for questioning. "Ok kids - We are all (say) Apostolics here, and this is what we as Apostolics believe. Everybody else is going to hell"

Public funding of various private schools is a genuine issue, but denying them any public funding is not the solution. To do so would be to apply a financial penalty to those who choose the private system, by making them pay for public education via taxes and for private education directly. You can justify public funding either from an economic perspective - because private schools reduce the amount of money spent on public schools and thus save the government money, or from a fairness perspective - in that those sections of the community who choose alternative schooling should not be made to pay twice.

So long as the government does not discriminate and treats atheist, nondenominational, Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc schools the same, then it becomes and issue of private vs public education, not one of religious vs atheist education.

public vs private education

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1172911103

My personal take is that it's irresponsible and dangerous to teach a totally exclusive view of religion that has no respect for the beliefs of others.

It is irresponsible and dangerous. But the thing about personal freedom is that it allows people to be irresponsible and dangerous, right up until they infringe on other people's rights (in a real sense, not in an imaginary or feared sense). You may not like it, but people are free to think you will go to hell for your beliefs, just not to try to send you there. The alternative is direct government control over religion.

Sounds like a cardboard cutout caricature of an Atheist, as described by a Theist.

Sorry, I left out the fundamentalist bit. Yes, plenty of athiests couldn't really care less.

Read the paragraph that you wrote prior to that. Isn't that a prime example of painting everyone with an alternative view with the same brush?

No, I remembered to include the word fundamentalist that time. Maybe there are different types of fundamentalist with different motivations, but I don't think that is what you were getting at.
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #4 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 12:48pm
 
Atheist = a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being.

Agnostic = a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

In other words, an Atheist doesn't believe in God. An Agnostic merely says that you can't prove God exists, therefore he doesn't.  Grin

On the last Census I listed myself as a Reformed Agnostic.  Try and work that one out.  Tongue
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #5 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 2:40pm
 
Neferti wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 12:48pm:
Atheist = a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being.

Agnostic = a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

In other words, an Atheist doesn't believe in God. An Agnostic merely says that you can't prove God exists, therefore he doesn't.  Grin

On the last Census I listed myself as a Reformed Agnostic.  Try and work that one out.  Tongue


Neferti - We've been through this discussion before, but I classify myself as an agnostic atheist. An atheist doesn't believe in gods. An agnostic doesn't know if god(s) exist.

The term 'doesn't believe in god(s)' covers a wide scope, and is probably better representative of my experience of the diversity in Atheists. It includes the subset who don't believe that god(s) exist. It basically means that (whether or not they exist), gods have no significance in that person's life.

That's all it comes down to.  

So you can see that the two are compatible. An agnostic theist is also possible. That's a person who doesn't know if god(s) exist but has a faith in god(s) - and there are plenty of Christians who fall into that category. How often have you heard the phrase "If there is a God...." ?

Clear as mud?

- And before somebody imposes their own definitions, let me tell you about a friend of mine. She is involved in aged care, and has been all her life - well for the last 20 years or so at least. She even prays with people who are religious, but the prayers mean nothing to her. She doesn't go out of her way to explain that she actually doesn't believe in God. To do so would be counter productive in some situations. The last thing on her mind is to try to convince anyone that her view is right and theirs is wrong. Her main aim in life is just to help people.

I learned a great deal from her, as well as the examples of humanitarian atheists like Fred Hollows, who really made a difference. That's where we should be aiming, regardless of religious position. We need to accept people with tolerance and understanding.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2008 at 2:50pm by muso »  

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freediver
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #6 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:12pm
 
If you define atheist as someone who simply does not believe in God, then that would make agnosticism a subset of atheism, which is clearly wrong. If someone thinks that God's existence is unknowable, then they obviously don't believe. An atheist is someone who believes that God does not exist, whereas an agnostic is someone who does not believe that God exists. There is no need to blur the distinction.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #7 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:12pm:
An atheist is someone who believes that God does not exist, whereas an agnostic is someone who does not believe that God exists. There is no need to blur the distinction.


By you definition, where does that place me within the blurred distinction? I believe that there COULD be a god but I am not willing to acknowledge that there IS one for lack of convincing evidence.
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freediver
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #8 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:56pm
 
That would make you an agnositc. You are pretty much a textbook example.
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muso
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #9 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 5:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:12pm:
If you define atheist as someone who simply does not believe in God, then that would make agnosticism a subset of atheism, which is clearly wrong. If someone thinks that God's existence is unknowable, then they obviously don't believe. An atheist is someone who believes that God does not exist, whereas an agnostic is someone who does not believe that God exists. There is no need to blur the distinction.


No - agnostic is not a subset of 'atheism'. It's unrelated. An agnostic simply doesn't know if God exists. Knowledge and belief are two different things.

You're also twisting the definition of Agnostic. 'God's existence is  unknowable' is different from 'I don't know if God exists'. Not all Agnostics believe that God's existence is unknowable. That's like someone saying the Capital of Nicaragua is unknowable because he doesn't know himself.
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muso
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #10 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 5:24pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:56pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:12pm:
An atheist is someone who believes that God does not exist, whereas an agnostic is someone who does not believe that God exists. There is no need to blur the distinction.


By you definition, where does that place me within the blurred distinction? I believe that there COULD be a god but I am not willing to acknowledge that there IS one for lack of convincing evidence.



You're a typical atheist - You don't believe in God. End of story. You also happen to be an agnostic.
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muso
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #11 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 5:47pm
 
Just to confuse you further -

http://www.strange-loops.com/athwhatis.html

Actually I fit none of the definitions on that site Smiley I just don't believe in god(s).

To illustrate that, the sun is worshipped by a number of people. I know that the sun exists, but I don't believe it's a god. 

Even atheists argue about what an Atheist is. The important thing is what you believe - not the label.
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #12 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 6:05pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 5:24pm:
You're a typical atheist - You don't believe in God. End of story. You also happen to be an agnostic.


However, I don't dont believe in god (a double negative, I know). I believe that god COULD exist. This is different to the implication that I don't believe in god absolutely.

I understand what you are mean when you previously mentioned "an agnostic thiest" (which I thought I was leaning towards but, can I be an athiest AND an agnostic as well? An athiest denies the existance of god absolutely, while my definition of an agnostic is one who questions the existance in either direction (eg. "there's a chance that god might exist" or "there's a chance that god doesn't exist").

If you say that because I question "the chance that god might exist" makes me an athiest/agnostic then in the same instance a person who questions "there's a chance that god doesn't exist" (implying that he does believe initially) to be a thiest/agnostic. Am I correct in your interpretation?
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #13 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 6:13pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 5:47pm:
Just to confuse you further -

http://www.strange-loops.com/athwhatis.html

Actually I fit none of the definitions on that site Smiley I just don't believe in god(s).

To illustrate that, the sun is worshipped by a number of people. I know that the sun exists, but I don't believe it's a god.  

Even atheists argue about what an Atheist is. The important thing is what you believe - not the label.




I guess the closest for me would be....

(AT5) A person who lacks a belief in regards to the existence of gods.

and

(AG5) A person who believes that knowledge in regards to the existence of gods is impossible.

However...

(AT5) is compatible with (AG1-5).

That only says that they are comtaible but doesn't provide a definite idealogical interpretation.

It's sort of like saying tat I'm a fanatical Holden man but I kinda like the look of the XR6 therefore making me a Holden/Ford man.  Wink
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Re: Ban religious schools?
Reply #14 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 6:45pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 6:05pm:
muso wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 5:24pm:
You're a typical atheist - You don't believe in God. End of story. You also happen to be an agnostic.


However, I don't dont believe in god (a double negative, I know). I believe that god COULD exist. This is different to the implication that I don't believe in god absolutely.

I understand what you are mean when you previously mentioned "an agnostic thiest" (which I thought I was leaning towards but, can I be an athiest AND an agnostic as well? An athiest denies the existance of god absolutely, while my definition of an agnostic is one who questions the existance in either direction (eg. "there's a chance that god might exist" or "there's a chance that god doesn't exist").

If you say that because I question "the chance that god might exist" makes me an athiest/agnostic then in the same instance a person who questions "there's a chance that god doesn't exist" (implying that he does believe initially) to be a thiest/agnostic. Am I correct in your interpretation?


I think so. I guess the question is - does God play a part in your life? If not, you don't believe in God. Don't confuse that with 'belief in the existence of God'. A Christian would answer that 'yes', and so would a Muslim, albeit with different gods.

Ultimately I don't even use the term 'atheist' to describe myself because my religious position is not a central tenet of earth shattering significance to me, and because there is so much confusion about the terminology anyway. It's much easier for me to just state what I actually believe and know without using ambiguous terms that nobody can agree on.
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