Australian Politics Forum - Freedom of speech gagged

Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #15 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 10:12am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 11:15pm:

Acid - I am unaware if what I quote is Wahhabis or not.
I'm of the mind it comes form the koran or hadiths etc.

Thought saudi was THE muslim place in the world ?
Only muslims live there, mecca is there.
Hence a shining example and to be aspired to, by muslims, that is ?

Again, you judge by inference. Only Wahhabi muslims live there. Mecca being situated in Saudi is merely geopgraphical and irrelevent to your argument. Sure, it is a place of worship that Muslim pilgrims travel to. But, thats like saying that Israel is THE Christian place in the world because Bethlehem or Jerusalem is there.

Wahhabism has already been established as an extreme sect of the Muslim culture. No one disputes that. The West only tolerate and pander to them again, for their geographical circumstance (being on top of a major oil field). They have the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Religious Police) to enforce their religious laws and to prevent the practice of non-muslim religions. Their school texts books reflect their extreme views. However, they are not the majority of Muslims.

Whether it comes from the Quran or hadith is again irrelevent - the overwhelming majority of Muslims are moderates and peace-loving. They do not share those views. The text books are from WAHHABI schools. The bible also have questionable passages that are violent. Its funny how you are always quick to point the negative aspects of the Quran and always fail to do the same for the Bible or even the Torah!

Your post was a thinly veiled attempt to again deride Islam and Muslims as a whole by infering that they practice the same form of religion as the Wahhabis.

I've concluded, based on your many posts and threads on the subject of Islam, Muslims, and the Quran that you are blinkered and blind to facts regarding them. Your comments are driven by your emotions and that you WILL quote out of context, and from unknown sources. Your aim in your threads and posts do not stimulate conversation, debate or discussion with query or questions but by inciting mistrust with sensational headlines and carefully selected news passages and always with the same view; Islam - BAD, Muslim - BAD. You have no credibility on these subjects.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #16 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 12:49pm

Saudi is indicitive to muslims beliefsas the vatican is to christians.
Post me when adulterors are beheaded at the vatican

It is not a christian must to do a pilgrimmage to bethleham.

Show me the violent directives in the NEW testament (christian), show me Jesus murderous actions.

While people like you are around, muslims don't need to do any of their renown violent demonatrations, jihad or death threats.
You have already rolled over.
Have a good weekend my fellow infidel.
(though I have my doubts on that.)

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Modern Classic Right Wing

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49296 At my desk.	Re: Freedom of speech gagged Reply #17 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 12:55pm Saudi is not a spiritual head of Islam any more than Mussolini was the head of Christianity. If you take a dump in the vatican toilet, that doesn't make it holy sprint.
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Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #18 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 1:34pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 12:49pm:

Show me the violent directives in the NEW testament (christian), show me Jesus murderous actions.

While people like you are around, muslims don't need to do any of their renown violent demonatrations, jihad or death threats.
You have already rolled over.
Have a good weekend my fellow infidel.
(though I have my doubts on that.)

So now you're saying the Bible is only the NT? Last I've heard the big book is both the OT and the NT. On another thread, you even quoted the names of the OT books and their authors as being part of the Bible. The OT is more than half the contents of the Bible. Christians quote from the OT as well to justify their beliefs and actions (good and bad). So, I hardly think that its fair of you to selectively ask me to pick from the NT only.

This is a classic christian tactic when challenged about the Bible. You ask me to find one bad aspect BUT, only from the narrow selection you've given me. Are you an evangellist? Are you one of those people that doorknock and quote your bible out of context? The last time I had this very same urging was from a door knocker.

Infidel? Rolled over? LOL. Now, I've both sides calling me an infidel Grin

I don't defend Christians nor Muslims as I am neither. I have my views on both religions. Both Christianity and Islam have good and bad aspects. Initially, you've come across (to me) as someone who is interested in inter-faith dialogue - to understand different aspects of both religions etc. It's obvious now that your true intention is to preach your world view of Islam. Without knowledge and wisdom to back you up your posts and threads are nothing but emotional ranting and hate speech. You are entitled to your views of course. But expect to be corrected on any factual errors or misconceptions you espouse.

You are a Christian fundamentalist - you believe that Christian are GOOD (warts and all). And yet you accuse Muslims of the same.

To paraphrase you, "How can Muslims claim to be peace-loving when their own Quran says... blah blah blah."

Well, I say to you how can you claim that Christians are good when your own Bible also say blah blah blah.

Are you responsible for the KKK and the apatheid regime of South Africa? They justifiy their acts by stating that God and Jesus were white. Of course, you're not. And, I don't blame you for them either. However, you (my Christian friend) denigrate the entire Muslims society on the account of a few fundamentalist and radical elements.

Perhaps, you see yorself as an opposing force to radical Islam. Perhaps, you may even be as bad as they are - fundamentally and radically.

Wink

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Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #19 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 1:46pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 12:49pm:

Saudi is indicitive to muslims beliefsas the vatican is to christians.
Post me when adulterors are beheaded at the vatican

I do recall men women being burnt at the stake as heretics. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You don't seem to get it, do you? You claim to be Mensa but it clea you don't use your analytical skills. At the very least, you hear but don't listen to what is being said. Or, you choose not to.

Saudi = Wahhabi.
Wahhabi = extreme minority Muslim sect.
Majority of Muslims = Sunni.
Sunni = moderate Muslim sect.

So how is Wahhabism an indication of Muslims?

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freediver

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #20 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 1:46pm

But Acid, if you pretend we are in a historical vaccuum then you can ignore the KKK, apartheid, inquisition etc and pretend Christians always were and always will be represented by the progressive attitude currently prevalent in most western countries. Which of course justifies regressive positions attacking other religions as inferior.

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Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #21 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:17pm

freediver wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 1:46pm:

But Acid, if you pretend we are in a historical vaccuum then you can ignore the KKK, apartheid, inquisition etc and pretend Christians always were and always will be represented by the progressive attitude currently prevalent in most western countries. Which of course justifies regressive positions attacking other religions as inferior.

LOL. Yes, historical vacuum indeed. Grin

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Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #22 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:38pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 12:49pm:

.... as the vatican is to christians.

Not true. It should be ....as the Vatican is to Roman Catholics.

There are other denominations/sects of Christianity:

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Anglican
Protestant
Lutheran
Assyrian
Adventists
Anabaptists
Baptists
Congregationalist
Methodist
Pentecostal
Presbytarian
Reformed Church
Restorationist

The Vatican has no meaning to them whereas Jerusalem and Bethlehem does.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #23 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:53pm

acid - the bible consists of the new and olt testaments.
jews are beholden to and follow The old testament .
christians are beholden to and follow the new testament.

For us, the old testament is a background.

Every nonmusli is an infidel, acidmonkey. hence my phrase "My fellow infidel."

Since when is direct quoting the koran and hadiths hate speech ?
Since when is agreeing with many clerics and significant muslim countries hate speech ?

yes, many christians over the past 2000 years have done really bad things.

"....denigrate the entire Muslims society on the account of a few fundamentalist and radical elements. "
hahhahah - a few hundred million !!!!!!!!!
islam is a belief of extremism.
The more extreme, the better a muslim you are.
Read the koran/hadiths, see what you think.
There is no moral code there.
The more extreme a muslim is there, the better.

if saudi has misunderstood the koran and hadiths so badly, I'ld like to see a few muslims go over there and show them where they have erred.
Weird, cause they are like a few other muslim countries who have thought that way for many many decades.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #24 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:57pm

acid :-

"Not true. It should be ....as the Vatican is to Roman Catholics.

There are other denominations/sects of Christianity:

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Anglican
Protestant
Lutheran
Assyrian
Adventists
Anabaptists
Baptists
Congregationalist
Methodist
Pentecostal
Presbytarian
Reformed Church
Restorationist

The Vatican has no meaning to them whereas Jerusalem and Bethlehem does."

What is believed in the vatican is in the main believed by ALL of the denominations you have put down.
In that way the vatican is indicative of all christians.

In the same way, saudi is indicative of ALL muslims

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freediver

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #25 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 3:10pm

In the same way, saudi is indicative of ALL muslims

No sprint, Saudi is different. You cannot compare it to the vatican at all. If you were fair, you would compare Saudi to Israel, as the only justification you have is that they rule over the holy cities in a political sense. But then, the whole comparison concept is pure gibberish.

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Freedom of speech gagged Reply #26 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 5:14pm Wahabi, wasabe, they both leave a bad taste in your mouth. To declare that deriding Islam is unfair, because apart from the wahhabi extremists, the rest are pretty tame, is like saying it is OK to be mauled by a bear because a tiger is worse. Islam of all varieties teaches many beliefs unacceptable to western culture.
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Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #27 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 5:17pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:53pm:

acid - the bible consists of the new and olt testaments.
jews are beholden to and follow The old testament .
christians are beholden to and follow the new testament.

For us, the old testament is a background.

Genesis 1:27 & 28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, ..." King James Version.

Often used as justification for discrimination against homosexuals. So much for "background".

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:53pm:

Since when is direct quoting the koran and hadiths hate speech ?
Since when is agreeing with many clerics and significant muslim countries hate speech ?

Yes, quoting from the Quran and hadiths is not hate speech. However, deliberately miscontruing and quoting out of context so as to influence the audience to a wrong assumption or playing to their fears is hate speech. I give one example (from another thread), you cited text about a trench dug in a market place to catch the blood of those being beheaded as the reason for the "trench" in the Battle of the Trench. You took the word "trench" and "beheading" from one text and somehow connected that to the Battle of the Trench to justify your rubbish. Malik has debunked your quote as unrelated to the topic at hand. I can only assume that that was your "secret" source since you haven't come up with anything beyond your repetitions and attempts to divert the topic conversation. I've noticed that you've kept away from that thread since then and you still refuse to admit either a) you are wrong or b) you are right (but you must produce the evidence to why).

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:53pm:

yes, many christians over the past 2000 years have done really bad things.

I'm glad that we agree on something.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:53pm:

"....denigrate the entire Muslims society on the account of a few fundamentalist and radical elements. "
hahhahah - a few hundred million !!!!!!!!!

We were talking about Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia weren't we? At least that's what I thought we were talking about - reading back on our posts. Wahhabi is ONE group. Overwhelmingly the population of Wahhabis reside in Saudi with pockets in Yemen, Kuwait, and Nigeria and elsewhere. 90% of Saudis are Wahhabis. The population of Saudi is just over 27.5 milllion. You do the maths... not exact "hundreds of millions". Once again, sensationalism and exaggeration on your part.

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freediver

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #28 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 5:22pm

To declare that deriding Islam is unfair, because apart from the wahhabi extremists, the rest are pretty tame, is like saying it is OK to be mauled by a bear because a tiger is worse.

You are confusing your metaphors Mozz. We are saying that showing that tigers are dangerous is not evidence that koala bears are dangerous. We are not saying it is unfair to deried Islam, just that a case has not been made.

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Acid Monkey

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #29 - Jun 20^th, 2008 at 5:40pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 2:57pm:

What is believed in the vatican is in the main believed by ALL of the denominations you have put down.
In that way the vatican is indicative of all christians.

In the same way, saudi is indicative of ALL muslims

Now, you see - you're twisting your own words around. Previously, you were justifying that Saudi is THE Muslim place in the world because a) it is a Muslim country, b) Mecca resides there and "thus a shining example of and to be aspired to by Muslims".

You said "that Saudi is indicative of Muslim belief as the Vatican is to Christians."

By your words and your context Saudi (Muslim country) and Mecca = Muslim world. I countered that the Holy See (Roman Catholic), Vatican (Roman Catholic) = Roman Catholic world. Other Christian denominations do not pay reverance to the Vatican.

Now you're saying that because they share the same teaching... blah blah blah.... hence Vatican = Christians.

Getting back to my point (and I am repeating myself).....

Saudi = Wahhabi.
Wahhabi = minority extremist Muslim sect.
Sunni = majority moderate Muslim sect.

So how is Saudi an indication of Muslims?

Let me ask you.... have you ever been to the following countries? Israel, Jordan, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia (not Bali!) What is the general level of your exposure to Muslims. I ask because you seem to be heavilly influenced by Fox News, western newspaper newspapers (pre-Iraq war) and war movies and not actually by directly interacting with Muslims. And, don't tell me that "some of my friends are Muslims" because I really would doubt that.

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