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Freedom of speech gagged (Read 16318 times)
mozzaok
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #60 - Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:19am
 
Oh, so parents, in your view, not only get to choose what their kids have to be taught, and believe, but also who they marry.

I can see you are very big on parents' rights to decide everything for their kids.
Obviously you were a late developer, or you would have developed some recognition of the fact that kids are sentient humans, and many are often capable of making decisions for themselves.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #61 - Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:22am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 24th, 2008 at 10:17am:
We see anti-Islamic people deriding mohammed as the "Pervert Prophet", because of the story that he wedded and bedded a nine year old girl, yet I assume there are passages in Islamic holy books which would denounce paedophilia as wrong.



I think your assumption is wrong. I don't believe that the Bible, Torah, or the Quran made any mention of paedophilia. Paedophillia is a modern invention.

In ancient Jewish culture girls and boys often marry at the onset of puberty. In Islamic culture prepubescent age was historically permissable. In the UK it was 12 years old until 1275 where it was raised to 13 years old. In ancient Rome it was 12 years old. It was nothing new in those days.
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freediver
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #62 - Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:27am
 
Mozz you're the one who said it, not me. You seem very touchy on this issue. If you think an absolute moral guideline on pedophilia could work better, then go ahead and suggest one.
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mozzaok
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #63 - Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:34am
 
So, if that is the case, then very religious people can justify their paedophila because our societies norms, are less relevant for them, than their outdated religious texts.
Many religious people believe that we need these religious texts to form a moral framework, I would obviously disagree, but I still hoped they would have something to call on to protect kids from sexual predation.

Suffer the little children?
Well let's hope that they don't have to suffer too much in the name of god.
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mozzaok
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #64 - Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:41am
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:22am:
mozzaok wrote on Jun 24th, 2008 at 10:17am:
We see anti-Islamic people deriding mohammed as the "Pervert Prophet", because of the story that he wedded and bedded a nine year old girl, yet I assume there are passages in Islamic holy books which would denounce paedophilia as wrong.



I think your assumption is wrong. I don't believe that the Bible, Torah, or the Quran made any mention of paedophilia. Paedophillia is a modern invention.

In ancient Jewish culture girls and boys often marry at the onset of puberty. In Islamic culture prepubescent age was historically permissable. In the UK it was 12 years old until 1275 where it was raised to 13 years old. In ancient Rome it was 12 years old. It was nothing new in those days.

What do you mean, when you say paedophelia is a modern invention?

I realise that cultural norms have changed over time, and womens' rights have come a long way since the club and cavemen days, but I don't know if you are implying that it is just the social taboo status has changed, or the proliferation of the behaviour itself.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #65 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:03am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 24th, 2008 at 10:17am:
We see anti-Islamic people deriding mohammed as the "Pervert Prophet", because of the story that he wedded and bedded a nine year old girl, yet I assume there are passages in Islamic holy books which would denounce paedophilia as wrong.

So following that scenario, could not an Islamic paedophile use the example of Mohammed as justification for his acts, instead of listening to other messages which would tell him what he is doing is wrong?

That type of scenario is why I have big problems with people who rely on ancient texts to determine moral choices.

Also, if the thing about mohammed and the nine year old is true, it would need to be examined in the context of what were the accepted norms of his era, and I also would expect people to use similiar judgement on directions for defending their faith etc.

A good point Mozzaok..

Historical study tends to allude to the fact that Aisha was older than 9 when consummating her marriage with Muhamad pbuh, evidence leads us to believe she was probably between 15-20 years old.

Either way however, we know for a fact that Aisha had definitely started her period by that stage, thus considered a woman.

Our view of adolescence has changed somewhat over the last few hundred years, the idea that being 18 years old or even 21 makes you an adult in some places is a new thing, people have in the past been considered an adult at much younger ages actually, in some states in the USA u can marry as young as 14 years old with your parents and a courts permission.

Even in places like Yemen, you can get married very early, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the bride and groom will be having sex, in the majority of cases they sleep in separate rooms.. The time for them is to get to know each other better and have an environment around them which is supportive, kind of like an apprenticeship for marriage as they will live in one of their parents houses and see from their example how to be good husbands and wives.

I think today however, the story is somewhat different. People now don't grow up as fast because we've manufactured a world where we keep them young, they have to ignore some of their natural instincts and it builds friction.. we don't teach boys how to be men, but instead try and suppress any feelings they have and expect them to figure it out themselves, that only puts the young men in danger, because they need to be under the guidance of someone wise who can show them the way..

I'm a big believer in coming of age traditions, where certain tribes take their sons out into the wild for a period of time ranging from a few weeks to a few months, and teach them how to fight wars, how to survive, how to wrestle, how to build, kill, how to be good husbands and protect their families, how to control their aggression because that's what real men do..


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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #66 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:14am
 



"Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234


Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151"


Care to tell us how old mohammad was at this stage malik ?
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #67 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:32am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:14am:
"Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234


Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151"


Care to tell us how old mohammad was at this stage malik ?

More than 50 years old considering it was after the Hijra..

Although I have read these statements before, I'd be surprised if she was 9 at the time of consummation. As I mentioned, the evidence points to her being 15-20 at the time of consummation.

Sprint tell me, how old was Joseph pbuh when he married Mary pbuh? And how old was Mary pbuh her?
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #68 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:51am
 
Sprint, you really should at least include a link when you copy and paste like that. It is annoying not to.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #69 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:54am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:51am:
Sprint, you really should at least include a link when you copy and paste like that. It is annoying not to.

His sources are prominently Anti Islam websites.. So he doesn't like to paste the links.. Or maybe he'll "forget" where he got it from again.
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #70 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:58am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:32am:
Sprint tell me, how old was Joseph pbuh when he married Mary pbuh? And how old was Mary pbuh her?


I don't think it's recorded anywhere, but based on 1st Century Jewish culture, it was normal for a girl to marry on the onset of menstruation. Men would marry on reaching physical maturity. That was pretty well the same regardless of religion. The Ancient Romans, Greeks and Etruscans had the same customs in that regard, except that Greek boys often consorted with older men, and went to to have wives when they grew older, if we believe the ancient writers.

It's common in many non-western cultures even today, for girls in their early teens to marry older men.

We shouldn't judge the past on the basis of relatively modern Western standards. I didn't feel comfortable with the society norms in my time in West Africa, but the Western world is the anomaly if you go back through history, not them.

We also have the advantage of modern medicine nowadays and longer life expectancy. To be really controversial, ask yourself the question - if early man had all waited until 18 to start procreation, would mankind still exist today?  
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #71 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:08am
 
muso wrote on Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:58am:
Malik Shakur wrote on Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:32am:
Sprint tell me, how old was Joseph pbuh when he married Mary pbuh? And how old was Mary pbuh her?


I don't think it's recorded anywhere, but based on 1st Century Jewish culture, it was normal for a girl to marry on the onset of menstruation. Men would marry on reaching physical maturity. That was pretty well the same regardless of religion. The Ancient Romans, Greeks and Etruscans had the same customs in that regard, except that Greek boys often consorted with older men, and went to to have wives when they grew older, if we believe the ancient writers.

It's common in many non-western cultures even today, for girls in their early teens to marry older men.

We shouldn't judge the past on the basis of relatively modern Western standards. I didn't feel comfortable with the society norms in my time in West Africa, but the Western world is the anomaly if you go back through history, not them.

We also have the advantage of modern medicine nowadays and longer life expectancy. To be really controversial, ask yourself the question - if early man had all waited until 18 to start procreation, would mankind still exist today?  

Oh no, it's been mentioned Muso..

Joseph pbuh had been married before and had kids from a previous marriage.

It is said that Mary pbuh was 12, and Joseph pbuh was 90 years old when they were married.


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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #72 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:11am
 


"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.  Book 41, Number 4915:"


found it again !!!
http://www.muhammadanism.org/hadith/Topics/Marriage.htm

quotes from the hadiths are not permiited ??



malik - Quote:
"I'd be surprised if she was 9 at the time of consummation. As I mentioned, the evidence points to her being 15-20 at the time of consummation."


So the hadits are wrong, according to your "evidence" ?

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #73 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:21am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:11am:
"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.  Book 41, Number 4915:"


found it again !!!
http://www.muhammadanism.org/hadith/Topics/Marriage.htm

quotes from the hadiths are not permiited ??



malik - Quote:
"I'd be surprised if she was 9 at the time of consummation. As I mentioned, the evidence points to her being 15-20 at the time of consummation."


So the hadits are wrong, according to your "evidence" ?


The site is a Christian evangelist site Sprint.

No, I don't trust hadiths by Aisha. Lots of Sunni Muslims do but I don't because I'm a Shia.

So I don't trust the hadiths. The evidence I mentioned based on her sisters ages, the time of hijrah, the fact that she was due to marry another and many other things point towards her age being older than 9 at consummation. We know the fact is in the circumstance and all views agree on is that she had started menstruating before her consummation. Making her old enough for marriage.

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Re: Freedom of speech gagged
Reply #74 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:30am
 
uhuh, so this hadith is "wrong."  Thought as much.
Is it cause it says mohammad is a paedophle ? thought as much

OOOhhh, naughty me, quoting a hadith as is on a christian site !!!!!


Weird that allah said mohammad could be a child molesterer, when later on it became a crime to the developed world.
Unless he just made it all up, murdering those who disagreed.

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