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Polygamy (Read 54096 times)

Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #210 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 9:55am

1. First of all, I'll elaborate on brother Rashid's here when he is saying that women must be behind men.

That isn't necessarily the case, they must be segregated.. That is true, but there are situations in many mosques where men and women are separated but instead of one being behind another, the women are beside the men with a dividing wall being between them.

It's really just a matter of practicality actually on where they can all actually go and how the mosque is built. The conditions are that they are segregated, but there is no mention of women having to be behind men.

And btw, no Abu Rashid and myself haven't met, at least I don't think so.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #211 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:06am

Now let's look at what we are doing to our children with the sexualization and exploitation of women.

Quote:

Sexualisation 'harms' young girls
The media's portrayal of young women as sex objects harms girls' mental and physical health, US experts warn.
Magazines, television, video games and music videos all have a detrimental effect, a task force from the American Psychological Association reported.

Sexualisation can lead to a lack of confidence with their bodies as well as depression and eating disorders.

Such images also have a negative effect on healthy sexual development in girls, the researchers said.

The task force was set up after mounting "public concern" about the sexualisation of young girls.

EXAMPLES OF SEXUALISATION
Young pop stars dressed as sex objects
Dolls aimed at young girls with sexual clothing such as fishnet tights
Clothing, such as thongs, for seven to 10-year-olds
Adult models dressed as young girls

Research on the content and effects of television, music videos, music lyrics, magazines, films, video games and the internet was analysed.

Recent advertising campaigns and merchandising of products aimed at girls was also scrutinised.

Sexualisation was defined as occurring when a person's value comes only from her or his sexual appeal or behaviour, to the exclusion of other characteristics, and when a person is portrayed purely as a sex object.

They gave examples of a trainer advert that featured pop star Christina Aguilera dressed as a schoolgirl with her shirt unbuttoned, licking a lollipop.

According to the research identified by the task force, such images and promotion of girls as sexual objects negatively affects young girls in many ways.

We need to replace all of these sexualised images with ones showing girls in positive settings - ones that show the uniqueness and competence of girls
Dr Eileen Zurbriggen
Task force chair

"The consequences of the sexualisation of girls in media today are very real," said Dr Eileen Zurbriggen, chair of the group and associate professor of psychology at the University of California, Santa Cruz.

"We have ample evidence to conclude that sexualisation has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, and healthy sexual development."

The task force called on parents, school officials, and health professionals to be alert for the potential impact on girls and young women.

And it advised that schools should teach pupils media literacy skills and should include information on the negative effects of images portraying girls as sex objects in sex education programmes.

Governments also had a responsibility to reduce the use of sexualised images in the media and advertising, they said.

Teenage magazines

Dr Zurbriggen added: "As a society, we need to replace all of these sexualised images with ones showing girls in positive settings - ones that show the uniqueness and competence of girls.

"The goal should be to deliver messages to all adolescents - boys and girls - that lead to healthy sexual development."

Professor Andrew Hill, professor of medical psychology at the University of Leeds, said it was hard to disagree with any of the reports conclusions.

"If you look at teenage magazines, it's all about sex.

"We are a visually absorbed society - our views of people are dominated by how they look."

He added that the use of women as sex objects in the media and advertising was a difficult issue to deal with.

"Only 18% of children's television viewing is in their designated viewing time and legislation can't be the answer for everything.

"One of the key things here is social responsibility - advertisers and other media need to be aware that the products they produce and images associated with them have an impact and it's not always a good impact," he said.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/6376421.stm

Published: 2007/02/20 00:31:58 GMT

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #212 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:08am

Now let's look at the result of the sexualisation and objectification of women in the West.

Miranda almost died from anorexia. She is eight years old
Rhodes Farm is Britain's largest residential clinic for children with eating disorders. In this moving report, Amelia Hill spends a week with patients and staff to learn how this debilitating and terrifying disease can be treated
Amelia Hill The Observer, Sunday November 18, 2007 Article historyMiranda turned eight years old last week. For her birthday, her parents took her to a pizza parlour, where she ate pasta and ice-cream. For any other child, it would have been a common enough treat. But for Miranda, the trip was nothing short of momentous.

Three-and-a-half months ago, seven-year-old Miranda was almost 23 pounds lighter than she should have been, with a body mass index (BMI) of just 12.5. A BMI of under 18.5 is officially considered to be underweight but, despite being considerably below that, Miranda continued not only to refuse to eat but also to drink.

Distraught and desperate, Miranda's parents, Simon and Joanna, sent her to Rhodes Farm in north London, Britain's first and largest residential clinic for child anorexics. They were told she was suffering from food avoidance emotional disorder and would have to stay in the clinic for five months. They were warned, however, that restoring her body to health was only the beginning of a much longer battle to heal her mind.

Last week, during an extraordinary visit to the clinic by The Observer, Miranda tried to explain what it is like to suffer an eating disorder at such a young age. 'It's like a pixie in my tummy who is like the devil and is always fighting me when I want to eat,' she said, sitting curled on the sofa with her stuffed dog, Bonny, clutched to her cheek. 'The pixie was stronger than me but now I'm a little bit stronger than him. He's getting smaller, and I'm getting bigger and soon he will have disappeared.'

To many, Miranda is shockingly young to suffer an eating disorder. She is, however, far from the youngest child whose life the doctors at Rhodes Farm have been asked to save. A few years ago, Dr Dee Dawson, founder and medical director of the clinic, treated a six-year-old with all the classic signs of anorexia nervosa. Great Ormond Street sees even younger children with other types of eating disorder.

'The age of children suffering eating disorders is definitely getting younger and younger; there is no doubt about that at all,' said Dawson. 'It used to be rare to see girls here before they hit puberty but now they make up at least one third of the children treated here at any one time. The average age of onset used to be 16 but that age is steadily dropping.'

Anorexia nervosa is a life-threatening condition, thought to affect around one in 100 schoolchildren, 10 per cent of whom are boys. Government research suggests new cases have increased by 40 per cent since 1990 but the cause of the disease remains a mystery and the best way of treating it is an inexact science. The disease continues to kill between 6 to 10 per cent of those it affects, either through starvation or suicide. A third of those who survive require ongoing treatment for their frequent relapses.

Since Dawson introduced the concept of residential homes for children with eating disorders into Britain 18 years ago, Rhodes Farm has treated 2,000 children. Those referred to the clinic, normally by the NHS, weigh on average just 67.75 per cent of their healthy minimum body weight. They are often within days, and sometimes hours, of death. Yet, in around 16 weeks, most of these children are physically well enough to return home. Just 16 per cent of children treated at Rhodes Farm continue to live lives dominated by their illness.

The Observer was granted unprecedented and unrestricted access to Rhodes Farm, from 6am for the morning weigh-in, which ensures the girls are gaining the required one kilogram a week in weight, until after the older girls went to bed at 10pm. They were supervised continuously throughout the night to ensure they didn't secretly exercise off the calories they had eaten during the day.

In what was a revealing insight into a disease that kills more of its sufferers than any other psychiatric illness - while remaining one of the least understood of all mental diseases - The Observer spoke to the girls and their parents, and attended group therapy sessions. We also sat in on training courses where doctors, nurses and carers openly discussed their uncertainties and fears concerning the girls whose lives they were struggling to save.

A day at the 32-bed Rhodes Farm begins, twice a week, with the early morning weigh-in. To prevent the children 'tanking' - drinking litres of water to conceal their continued weight loss - the girls are also randomly weighed throughout the week and carefully monitored, a measure introduced after a girl went permanently blind in one eye after drinking five litres of water, damaging her brain through water intoxication.

The weigh-in is an anxious time for the children. Unless they gain a kilogram each week, the clinic forbids them from taking part in activities such as dancing and aerobics that use up calories their body can't spare. Home visits are also subject to this rule, as children will inevitably expend more calories outside the clinic than inside it. If they still fail to maintain their weight, their release date will be

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #213 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:09am

continued from previous

their release date will be put back indefinitely.

Still in their pyjamas, the girls silently hunch in chairs. Some weep while others sit almost paralysed, trapped between their terror of gaining weight, and the dread of not being allowed to go home or exercise.

After they have been weighed, some are inconsolable. On learning that she had gained the necessary kilogram, one 14-year-old girl claws at her gaunt face with wasted hands. 'I hate seeing the scales go up. I disgust myself,' she whispers. 'They force me to eat in here and I hate them for it. I should be a better anorexic than this. I'm revolting.'

Forcing the children to eat is the secret of Rhodes Farm's success. Every child must gain a kilogram a week until they reach their target weight calculated on admittance to the clinic. For some, this means consuming 3,000 calories a day over three communal meal times and two snacks. Calorie-laden Banoffee pie, a mixture of bananas, cream and biscuits, is often a dessert. Any child who refuses to eat will have a tube threaded into their nose and a liquid meal introduced directly into their stomach; a threat so dire, it is only invoked once a year at most.

'We take away the guilt of eating by taking away their choice,' says Dawson. 'The words 'negotiation' and 'compromise' are not words in our vocabulary when it comes to eating. One of my patients described me as the 'rock in a frock'. Not a very flattering description but one which depicts the unyielding stance we take with refeeding our young patients.'

This zero-tolerance approach creates an atmosphere at meal times even tenser than that during the weigh-in. Some children are trusted to eat in a communal kitchen without the supervision of carers but the others must sit at a long table, forced to eat their meal in a specified length of time under the constant supervision of at least two nurses.

Tina Fisher, mental health nurse and unit manager at the clinic for seven years, says she has seen too much to be shocked any longer by the lengths children will go to during meal times. In their relentless pursuit of thinness, she has seen children try to hide food by smearing it in their hair, hide it in their underwear or vomiting into their schoolbag immediately after eating, even if the bag is full of books. 'You can think you haven't taken your eyes off a child for the whole meal, then find food stuffed under their chair or hidden all over the house,' she adds.

To prevent children vomiting, exercising or self-harming, they are not allowed back to their room during the day other than to collect something they have forgotten, and then only with permission. Those who are so firmly in the grip of their illness that they cannot be trusted to keep to the rules, are put under 24-hour supervision and forbidden from even going to the toilet on their own.

Such prohibitions might seem draconian but, says Fisher, the determination anorexia breeds in its victims makes it necessary. The children's attitude to food is often so distorted that they refuse to touch hand cream for fear it will absorb calories into their skin. They won't smell food for fear the calories will enter their bodies that way. One young boy refused to touch his mother, who was slightly overweight, in case her fat seeped into his body. Another child stopped feeding her horse because she was afraid of the fat in the seeds she had to handle.

'It's astonishing the lengths the children will go to,' she says. 'They will lie in bed pushing their body up off the mattress to burn calories, they will walk three times round the room to pick up the remote control, or keep windows open and wear skimpy clothes so their body has to work harder to keep warm.'

Twenty years ago, anorexia was confined mainly to middle-class, white children. Now it attacks all groups of society, regardless of social class or ethnic origin. The younger the age of onset, the poorer the prognosis: children have a smaller percentage of body fat than adults and so the effect of anorexia is extreme and frighteningly quick: the short-term impact on children is usually apparent within weeks. If the starvation occurs before puberty, a girl's breasts, ovaries and uterus will not develop. If anorexia takes hold before the growth spurt, the child might remain permanently stunted.

The long-term effects can be debilitating and include infertility; Dawson has treated several children who have been at their target weight for three years and have still not menstruated. Once a child's periods stop, she will lose calcium from her bones every day. This loss will never be recovered, meaning the bones will never reach their maximum density. Dawson has seen children whose periods have stopped for only one year but whose poorly calcified bones fracture with distressing ease. In girls who develop the illness before puberty, it is even more vital that they are restored to normal weight and reach puberty before any permanent damage is done.

In the absence of sound research as to the disease's cause, the best experts can do is hunt for clues among common characteristics of sufferers; mainly females with obsessive, perfectionist characters. It seems likely, however, that genetic, biological and environmental factors contribute to the cause and Dawson is particularly concerned by the admiration lavished by the media on models who have achieved a body size zero.

It appears, however, that it is a

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #214 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:10am

Continued:

It appears, however, that it is a myth that behind every anorexic lies a major trauma. Very often, by the time a child comes for treatment, the cause of their eating disorder has been resolved or even forgotten. 17-year-old Anna-Marie, for example, is unable to explain why she developed the illness that led her to drop to 60.8 per cent of her minimum body weight with a heart beating at less than half its healthy rate. 'I really want to figure out why I got ill but I just don't know,' she said. 'I didn't do it deliberately but perhaps it was to do with the stress of feeling I had to be perfect at everything, or a safety net in case I didn't do well enough in my exams.

'The ironic thing is, I didn't want to lose weight. I loved my body and was terrified when I began looking skeletal. I'm a very logical person so when I feel myself losing power to the anorexia, it's terrifying but it becomes a form of escapism: it makes you feel it's your friend and will shield you from all those things you don't want to face.'

Doctors at Rhodes Farm are shocked by how many parents are unable to bring themselves to fight their child's eating disorder. 'We never cease to be amazed by how many parents collude with their child's illness because they fear that their child will carry out their threats to run away or kill themselves,' says Dawson. 'We meet parents all the time who have wasted months and in some cases years of their child's young life, always giving her one last chance and believing her promises to eat tomorrow.'

Even once parents turn to the medical establishment for help, many are told to stand back and not interfere, allowing their child to eat what they want. But while this may be an accepted way of proceeding with adult patients, Dawson believes it is exactly the opposite of how children should be treated. 'Anorexic children can die before they see the necessity of asking for help,' she insists.

Many parents battle with their health authorities to recognise the severity of their child's illness but even when they win the right to receive in-patient care, the choice of treatment they are offered is contentious. Anorexic children can be treated in one of four different places: a paediatric ward, a child and adolescent psychiatric unit, an adult psychiatric unit or a specialist unit like Rhodes Farm.

Although ideal for a child that needs urgent, medical treatment, paediatric wards are intended for children with short-term illnesses and run by general nurses. Child psychiatric units have specialist staff but also admit children with more challenging behaviours, meaning anorexic children are often overlooked.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists recommends that, where possible, parents should insist their child is treated in a specialised unit. The one place parents should never allow their child to go was, said Dawson, an adult psychiatric ward.

Anna-Marie hopes to be allowed home next April, by which time she will have been at Rhodes Farm for 25 weeks. 'I so badly want to be well again but still find it hard very to think of myself putting on weight,' she admits. 'But what I really want is for my dimples to come back.' She points to a photograph of her with her sisters before she became ill. 'See, I used to have really cool dimples. Now I just have a thin line because my face is so gaunt. I want my smile back.'

About this articleClose This article appeared in the Observer on Sunday November 18 2007 on p18 of the News section. It was last updated at 10:01 on November 19 2007.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #215 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:12am

Now let's look at another example of the Wests sexualization of girls as young as 12 years old, being allowed to be models and star in bikini shoots. Almost allowed to enter fashion week as a model.

Quote:

I'll protect 12-year-old model, says agentSeptember 15, 2007 02:21pm
THE head of a modelling agency responsible for a 12-year-old girl who won a Gold Coast fashion event says she will ensure the girl is not exploited.

Maddison Gabriel, who turns 13 tomorrow, has been signed by agency Ugly People as the prize for being named the face of Gold Coast Fashion Week.

The Gold Coast agency's head Simone Hyde said Maddison was not being exploited during fashion week and she would ensure she was not exploited in the future.

"She is not and won't be modelling bikinis or lingerie,'' Ms Hyde said.

"She has a lot of work to do before she is on a catwalk and this is just the first step.

"Modelling is what she wants to do.''

A chorus of criticism, led by Prime Minister John Howard, followed the crowning of Maddison.

Mr Howard said Australia should follow the example of Europe and ban models younger than 16 appearing on catwalks.

"Catapulting girls as young as 12 into something like that is quite outrageous and I'm totally opposed to it and think most Australians would feel the same way, Mr Howard said.

Federal Labor Leader Kevin Rudd was concerned Maddison would miss out on her childhood.

"I have real concerns about littlies that young going out there doing that sort of thing,'' Mr Rudd said.

One of Australia's leading models, Kristy Hinze, labelled Maddison's appointment as "sick".

"I think that's awful," Hinze said.

"Gee I was a baby at 15 when I started, but 12? That's taking it to a whole new level. I don't care what she looks like," she said angrily.

However, the Hillcrest Christian College Year 8 student said her age did not not matter.

"I believe that I can fit into women's clothing, I can model women's clothing so I should be able to do it,'' Maddison told the Seven Network.

Her mother Michelle also defended the role.

"For a 12-year-old, I think she's handling it very well, I'm very proud of her,'' Ms Gabriel said.

She said the family had not made any money from Maddison's modelling.

Ms Hyde said Maddison would appear with 10 other finalists modelling eveningwear at a closed event but would not be making any other appearances.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #216 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:23am

Next, pole dancing for kids:

Quote:

Children should not be pole dancing
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22545866-2,00.html
By Kate Sikora
October 08, 2007 12:30am

GIRLS are being groomed to wear bras almost as quickly as they step out of nappies so it wasn't going to take long for someone to promote pole dancing as an acceptable form of fitness for children.

The promoters can try to hide behind the term "pole fitness" but there is no disguising that girls are still required to contort their lithe frames and act in a sexual manner.

Pole dancing is designed to tantalise men and force women's bodies into arousing positions.

Dancers are dressed in next to nothing and perform in venues that 10-year-olds have no idea about. It was never meant to be performed by girls who probably still have a Barbie in their back pocket.

Parents who believe this form of dancing - if you can call swinging limbs around a pole that - need to realise the damaging effects it can have on impressionable young girls.

You are telling your 10 year old it is fine to act as a sexual object. Already girls mimick the moves of the Pussycat Dolls and Christina Aguerila, whose concerts look like a burlesque dance show. With so many conflicting yet powerful messages bombarding girls, it is no wonder girls have become confused about sexuality. It is important parents establish clear boundaries of what is acceptable behaviour and maintain their child's innocence.

It is completely unacceptable that society encourages girls - who barely know the facts of life - to participate in a provocative form of dancing widely associated with sex and strip clubs.

Only last month Australian families were outraged when 12-year-old Maddison Gabriel, of Queensland, became the face of an adult fashion show. Prime Minister John Howard called it "outrageous" and said innocence needed to be protected.

Newcastle University Professor of psychiatry Louise Newman said young girls' minds are being corrupted by such sexualisation.

"Pole fitness is completely unacceptable," she said. "It's part of the overall problem of promoting too early adult sexual activities in children who aren't able to understand."

"Pole dancing is not usually known as a fitness activity. There are other ways girls can exercise."

The growing concern over girls' sexualisation prompted the Australian Psychology Association to publish a tip sheet for parents last week.

Unfortunately it didn't warn mums and dads to wisen up and not be duped into believing pole dancing is not about skipping around a maypole.

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mozzaok

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #217 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24am

I agree that sexualising children is wrong, very wrong, but Islam does just that, by allowing child brides.
They just jealously protect their objects of sexual desire from all lustful behaviour, except their own!

Here is another case you can try and justify boys.

" A Yemeni court on Tuesday granted a divorce to an eight-year-old girl whose unemployed father forced her into an arranged marriage this year, saying he feared she might be kidnapped.

"I am happy that I am divorced now. I will be able to go back to school," Nojud Mohammed Ali said, after a public hearing in Sanaa's court of first instance.

Her former husband, 28-year-old Faez Ali Thameur, said he married the child "with her consent and that of her parents" but that he did not object to her divorce petition.

In response to a question from Judge Mohammed al-Qadhi, he acknowledged that the "marriage was consummated, but I did not beat her."

Yemen, one of the world's poorest countries, has no law governing the minimum age of marriage.

Nojud was a second grader in primary school when the marriage took place two and a half months ago.

"They asked me to sign the marriage contract and remain in my father's house until I was 18. But a week after signing, my father and my mother forced me to go live with him."

Nojud's father, Mohammad Ali Al-Ahdal, said he had felt obliged to marry off his daughter, an act he claims she consented to.

He said he was frightened after his oldest daughter had been kidnapped several years ago and later married to her abductor. He said the same man then kidnapped another of his daughters who was already married and had four children, resulting in him being jailed.

Dressed in traditional black, Nojud said she would now go to live in the home of her maternal uncle and did not want to see her father.

The girl's lawyer, Shadha Nasser, said Nojud's case was not unique. "I believe there are thousands of similar cases," she said, adding that civil society groups are pressing parliament to set the minimum age for marriage at 18."

Child brides are still common in Islam, so I suggest you concern yourself with that perversion first.

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #218 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:45am

So according to the articles I have pasted up we can establish the following:

The sexualization and objectification of women in the West has resulted in health risks (both psychological and physical) for not only grown women, but children as young as 8 from the example of Miranda, who almost died from her eating disorder. Yet society thinks it's completely acceptable and ok to have g strings for kids as young as 7 years old, to teach them how to pole dance at the age of 10 and allow them to model womens swim wear at the age of 12 years old in the case of Maddison Gabriel.

That means that children as young as 7 are being exposed to sexuality, losing their childhood and will be curious about sex and wanting to experiment at these ages. But of course we say it's too young for them so very young children now are wanting to be 'grown up' and do the things which their idols on tv do. So now we have predators everywhere who are molesting them and in more and more cases the young girls are willing participants to the molestation because they want to be like their idols on TV and in Movies. So when is the time right for girls to go through that stage?

It's not me sexualizing women or lusting after 9 year olds. WESTERN Society is allowing young girls to be made into sex objects.. When you allow a 12 year old with a body similar to that of a woman to dress up in bikinis and have her used as a model for swimsuits, you are deliberately making her a sexual object for advertising. Of course people are going to find her sexy, that's what the advertising is designed for.

The evidence of Aisha's actual age when she consummated her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is inconclusive. There are hadiths that mention her being as young as 9 years old at the time of marriage but do not mention of the actual time of consummation (which as mentioned can in Arab culture from the examples I've given you in Yemen to be some years after their marriage. There is also other evidences that point towards Aisha's age being between 14-20 years old at the time of her actual marriage to Muhammad pbuh based on the timeline of events that occured, ie the Hijra and the ages of people around her. I personally don't hold the hadith mentioning Aisha's age at 9 at the time of marriage to be something which is true as with many other hadiths in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as they both went through the Umayyad period and could have been tampered with by it's despotic rulers.

We can establish these facts however.

1. Aisha had started menstruating, making her ready to have children and thus being considered a woman.

2. It was a socially acceptable practice at the time to marry so young.

I find it very hypocritical that the West criticizes Muslims for this issue but at the same time sexualises and objectifies women and girls as young as 7 years old to a huge extent.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #219 - Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:49am

mozzaok wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24am:

Did you read the article? It proves my point in many cases. She agreed to marry him at such a young age, 8 years old and was supposed to move in with him when she was 18. That is very common.

You see she can marry him that young and stay away from him until she is 18 and if in the mean time she decides that she doesn't want to marry him she can divorce him and wont have to move in with him. If she still wants to move in with him at the age of 18 then she certainly can, and the marriage will be completed.

The problem with this situation is that her father forced her to live with him when she wasn't ready to. He shouldn't have done that. That is against the teachings of Islam and is instead a tribal practice unacceptable to Muslims.

« Last Edit: Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:59am by Malik Shakur »

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #220 - Jul 1^st, 2008 at 10:46am

from pages 7-9:

Malik said: 'That is how it has been defined for thousands of years. It's only been within the last 2 hundred years or so that we have introduced the concept of adolescence etc.'

That is because science has advanced in the last 200 years and we are now able to look at things more critically.

It's got nothing to do with science MW, only wealth. There is no longer any need to marry our daughters of at 12.

Furthermore, feel free to answer this question I posted earlier:

Quote:
I might ask you what happens when women outnumber men in society? Are those women who don't have a husband supposed to just go through their life being alone? No one to love, care for her, look after her, provide for her? Are you going to deny her the right to have those things?

Malik, you still haven't adequately answered the question about running out of women. All you have done is post anecdotal reports about cultural problems making it hard to get a wife. You haven't explained how allowing some men multiple wives would make it any easier for those others who are having trouble.

but as soon as someone wants to marry another wife with the permission of their first

What difference does permission make? The first wife will have a choice between being turfed out on the street at 50 or putting up with the new wife. Whether she is told about the choice before or after hardly makes a difference to the way women are treated.

However you still haven't covered the rights of a wife (the right to be clothes, accommodated, fed, looked after, protected etc). They still don't have that right from the man that's cheating on his wife, thus they are simply objects and possessions

That doesn't make sense Malik.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #221 - Jul 1^st, 2008 at 12:17pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 5:34am:

In Australia, in the 21st. century that is statutory rape, yes. You must add that qualifier of time period, because at the time Muhammad (Pbuh) was being married, the age of consent in Australia most probably didn't exist, and in most other places in the world at his time, his marriage would've been perfectly normal.

At the time when Muhammad was married, Australia as a nation didn't exist and Captain Cook wasn't even a twinkle in his father's eye.

Statutory rape is a modern defininition. Back "in those day" it was common practice in Muslim and Christian societies to marry and have sex with pre and pubescent children. I've posted on this earlier or elsewhere on another thread - I can't remember where - there's a lot of inter-thread bleeding at the moment.

Welcome D and MW.

Also, welcome abu_rashid. Its good to see another Muslim voice in this forum. You and Malik have created a lively atmosphere. I commend you both. It was getting one-sided and boring in here for a while there (sorry FD Wink

)

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freediver

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #222 - Jul 1^st, 2008 at 1:35pm

from pages 10-12:

I'll probably accused of being a total sexist now, but women are more talented at raising kids than men.

Especially breast feeding.

It seems rather odd to me that the same people who constantly champion freedom of the individual and the right to conduct your own private relationships in the fashion you choose are sometimes the same people who seek to prevent things like polygamy from being legal.

They'll campaign for gay marriages, they'll probably even be campaigning for the right to marry animals in the not too distant future and they probably have no qualm with people living in 3 or 4 way relationships, but if a Muslim (or Christian or Jew, some of them DO practise polygamy too) wants to make that relationship legally binding and formal, all of a sudden personal freedom isn't worth zip.

Abu, this is based on the consequences of such laws. Gay marriage has no negative consequences. Polygamy and sex with animals do. People can live however they want, including 3 or 4 way relationships. This is only a limit on legal recognition of marriage. Personal freedom, and what the government officially supports through law are not the same thing.

And for any Christians who oppose polygamy, go and read your Bible, you'll be hard pressed to find a prophet who wasn't polygamous. And nowhere was it ever prevented in the New Testament, which would indicate it still stands as a valid and legal practise.

The bible also has slavery in it. Does that mean the KKK was right? BTW, as far as I know, Jesus was not polygamous.

People appear to be objecting to it more on the grounds that they do not want to alter their laws to suit people who are perceived as outsiders or alien

It has nothing to do with outsiders. Our society has had this debate before, back when polygamy was common in our society.

The reasons 'why' are completely irrelevant. The fact is. some Muslim men choose to have more than one wife. And since Australia is a 'free and democratic' country, that safeguards and values the freedom of individuals there's no reason why it shouldn't be allowed by law.

You are missing the point abu. It is perfectly legal and you are free to do it. You just can't register it as a marriage.

But, Malik, if you are trying tying to mount an argument that Islam has some historical birth right in Australia, you are losing credibility.

There is no such thing as a 'historical birth right' in Australia and the notion that you deserve more priviledges or more control over this country than someone else because your ancestors or your religion go back further is about as unaustralian as you can get.

Malik, Australian was discovered and settled by Europeans, and unless you want to disturb some centuries of history, I suggest better put up or shut up.

Uh Aussie, you are forgetting the Aborigines. At the very least.

Unless of course you can find a solution of what to do when there are not enough men around for the women who want to have a husband, to be looked after by a husband, protected, loved, given intimacy, accommodation, clothing, food etc.

Malik you keep repeating this point, so why won't you explain how it works when we run out of women under polygamy? What are all the wifeless men supposed to do? Start a war?

You should fix the problems you have already acknowledge are the cause of the situation, not create even worse problems in response.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #223 - Jul 1^st, 2008 at 2:45pm

Malik, you posted:

But that doesn't mean we are against people living in a secular democracy.

But then you also posted:

Yes, and if the idea of having an Islamic State became popular enough amongst Australians that there was a referrendum held on whe I'd vote for it in a heartbeat.

Doesn't that mean you are against living in a secular democracy?

Yes, they can swim at the beach. There are many types of swim wear that cover that. One in particular called the burqini See the pic below of a Muslim lifeguard in Sydney.

I notice she is dry in that photo. Even so, I can still make out that she is a woman and not a hat stand. What happens when she gets all wet? How will Hilaly control himself? What if it's a cold day? Also, if you are going to wear a skin tight suit, why not a lycra swimming suit like what the Thorpedo wears? I don't see the difference. Once you go down that road, you totally defeat the purpose of making your women wear tents.

No actually, it speaks about a benefit there because when Arabs used to gamble, the money lost would go to charity which was good.

So charities ran the casinos? Sort of like our clubs running the pokies?

Should males mind their own business? Well the question is, will males mind their own business? No of course they wont, males are visual creatures who look and lust.

Australian males do mind their own business. We jail any who don't. Looking at a woman doesn't hurt them.

and is one of the bggiest perpetrators of sex tourism can hardly take the high moral ground

It is illegal here. There's not much more you can do about it. What do you suggest? Public floggings? I think you'll find sex tourism is more popular because our women and children are protected. We are actively chasing these people down, not allowing them to marry children when their first wife hits 30.

The prophet Muhammad committed statutory rape according to this law.

No he didn't. The law was not retrospective.

You can read into it what you like, the simple fact is he didn't say it, nor did he even hint about it.

He certainly did hint at rape. Unless you think minding your own business extends to not looking at other people? Why would anyone think that? I know, rape.

As he quite rightly pointed out, that's why we've got billboards and television commericals everywhere with half naked women on them selling everything from chocolate bars to power tools.

He may have pointed out that there are half naked women, but he hasn't demonstrated that this is a problem. Do you have a problem with nudity? Plenty of societies allow far more nudity without sexualising women. They are two different issues. You don't solve the sexualisation of women by making them wear tents. That just makes it worse.

I said IF you don't like it go somewhere else. I would say the same thing to anyone bitching and whinging as you are.

That's just absurd MW. I often hear people say that refugees should fix their own country instead of coming here, but if someone doesn't like this country they should flee. How hypocritical is that? If you object to what you see, it is your civic duty to correct it. You are being unaustralian in suggesting we should walk away from problems.

Why must people have sex to complete a marriage. This focus on it is entirely unhealthy.

I don't think so D. A marriage without sex has serious issues.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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muso

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Re: Polygamy
Reply #224 - Jul 1^st, 2008 at 3:29pm

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2008 at 2:45pm:

I said IF you don't like it go somewhere else. I would say the same thing to anyone bitching and whinging as you are.

That's just absurd MW. I often hear people say that refugees should fix their own country instead of coming here, but if someone doesn't like this country they should flee. How hypocritical is that? If you object to what you see, it is your civic duty to correct it. You are being unaustralian in suggesting we should walk away from problems.

I've always wanted somebody to define the word Un-Australian. Most Australians have mobile phones. Is it un-Australian if you don't have a mobile phone? (OK, it's a higher moral ground kind of thing - I know)

“Go Back Home If You Don’t Like It Here”

Actually it's a kind of 'Kath and Kim' type of saying that a real life Ocker (Please explain?) would come out with. It's a tad unsophisticated. The sterilised TV versions wouldn't be allowed to say anything like it of course. It's really a bit of misplaced patriotism that is not really helpful.

You don't even need to be from overseas to catch a whiff of xenophobia (It's an inert gas that they fill the streetlights with in Ipswich to make them glow). I know one ex Adelaide University lecturer who was filling up his car in a remote Queensland town (Dingo) and chatting to the attendant. "Hot enough for ya? Bet it doesn't get this hot in England" was the remark. Well they do speak a lidoo bit funny in Adelaide.

The epitome of "Kath and Kim" type sayings is the "rather see Australia first" gambit. It's mixed with a bit of sour grapes, usually when the neighbours talk with unbridled enthusiasm about their impending yak riding holiday in the Northern Uzbekistan mountains, or whatever. I've heard it so often.

The funny thing was when visiting New Zealand for work purposes a few years ago. I was enjoying an after work barbecue and one of the locals was talking about her trip to Thailand. As if by magic - out it came, except it was of the "rather see New Zealand First" variety. It caught me totally by surprise, and I almost shared my beer with everybody via aerosol. You could cut the irony with a knife, but nobody else could see the joke.

Of course if I don't like it here, I can always go back to where I came from. No worries mate, I bloody like it here.

Anybody else going to watch Queensland win tomorrow night?

« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2008 at 3:49pm by muso »

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