mozzaok wrote on Jun 27^th, 2008 at 10:11am:

I'm sorry I haven't quoted the whole quote Mozza, but I'll address each point you made hopefully.

Firstly regarding your accusation of the treatment of Muslim women.
The fact remains that those behaviours that you mentioned are a cultural practice that is practiced by not only Muslim's but also Christians and Jews in the Middle East. Honour killings are forbidden in Islam, as is female circumcision, beating one's wives and raping them etc.

Next you talk about polygeny. I might ask you what happens when women outnumber men in society? Are those women who don't have a husband supposed to just go through their life being alone? No one to love, care for her, look after her, provide for her? Are you going to deny her the right to have those things?

Before Islam came Arabs used to buy and sell women, give their daughters and wives away to pay debts, women could not divorce their husbands nor could they choose them, women had no right to inherit wealth nor possess their own. Women had no right to education and were treated like possessions.

When Islam came it gave women the right to education, the right to own and inherit their own wealth and do with it as they please, the right to political representation, the right to choose and refuse potential husbands, to keep their maiden name and the right to divorce their husbands. The Christian West didn't grant these rights until very recently in history, whereas in Islam we had given these rights to women more than 1400 years ago.  

In addition to that, Islam brought women even more rights than non Muslim women enjoyed not only at that time, but even until today. They have the right not to be looked at as sexual objects or judged by their physical appearance and instead are taken by their intellect and personality, they have the right to be protected and have accommodation, clothing and food provided for them without being forced to work by their husbands. And should they actually go and work, their husbands have no right to touch their wealth and still have to provide for them. In fact even if the wife requests a payment from the husband for breast feeding their own children he has to pay it.

Furthermore, the punishment or death does not apply to apostasy, in fact all of the Qur'anic verses that refer to apostasy, those being  3:72, 3:90, 16:106, 4:137 and 5:54. All of these verses refer to the punishment for apostasy as something which will occur in the next life, not in this life. The only time that the death penalty can apply in this situation is if the person who apostates goes and physically fights against the Muslim state and encourages others to do so.

You also state that Islam is systematically racist against Jews, if that was the case we wouldn't have protected them from the Christian and European hordes that tried to rid them from the face of the earth. In fact the Jewish communities that have been safest in the world have lived amongst the Muslims, in Iran, Yemen, Morocco, Egypt, Islamic Spain, Ottoman Empire etc. When the Islamic State ruled these areas, Jews were given autonomy, allowed to live by their own laws, elect their own clergy and live under the protection of the Islamic State. Compare that with non Muslim Europe who forcibly converted more than a hundred thousand Jews in their many inquisitions and murdered many too. In addition to that Europe allowed anti Semitism to gain such support that Hitler was able to murder SIX MILLION OF THEM before the rest of the world stopped him. So regarding that, you have no right to blame Muslims for anti semitism. We ARE Semites.

Islam prescribes the Islamic State be run according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. But that doesn't mean we are against people living in a secular democracy. In fact, we have to follow the laws of the land that we are in and that means accepting peoples right here to live under the type of system they do and contributing positively to society. Compare that with the many coups orchestrated by the West in the Middle East including the overthrow of the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadeq in Iran in the 50's after he nationalized Iran's oil. In addition to the Non Muslim West's attempts to colonize and rid Islam's influence from the Middle East by installing and supporting dictators and kings in those lands.

You also say:

Quote:


But only a few sentences later you say:

Quote:


I find it very hypocritical that you accuse Muslims of not accepting a secular and democratic government but then have no problem with saying that for most Westerners an Islamic State is an abhorrent belief. It is obvious that you have a holier than thou attitude and believe that you're culture and values are superior to Islam. Thus you are happy to insult Islam and Muslims and make all kinds of stupid accusations against them, yet you find criticism of your own values and cultures as insulting and would ask any Muslim who does so to leave the country if they don't like it.

As mentioned before, many of the examples you gave of 'Islam' are actually cultural and social practices of the region not limited to Muslims and clearl

Our culture and lifestyle is better and Im sure that Middle Eastern Muslims think South East Asian Muslims are a joke but will claim them to enlarge their numbers. I live in a Turkish part of town, it aint that flash, do they know what rubbish bins are for and do they really have to blow smoke in everyones face that walks by, and the teenagers, what a great bunch, if you want us to believe we are doing it wrong, you will have to try a lot harder that writting down a few lines from the Koran.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2008 at 9:30am:

There are 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world, the largest religion out there.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2008 at 11:25pm:


My figures aren't rubbery, the Catholic Church admitted this recently.

I don't think you need to worry about us overrunning you and blowing ourselves up. However Islam is growing very fast. Not just from Muslims having children, but also from people becoming Muslims too.

mozzaok wrote on Jun 28^th, 2008 at 12:02am:


So then just admit that and make sure you only mention that. Instead of trying to make it look like you don't like Muslims because they want to make you Muslim say the truth, the fact is you don't like Muslims because they aren't like you.

mozzaok wrote on Jun 28^th, 2008 at 12:02am:

I agree with you, but the Niqaab or Burkha aren't an Islamic obligation on women. The prophet pbuh said that believing woman should cover everything except their face and hands.. Not everything except a slit for their eyes. That is a tribal type of tradition that has been promoted to suppress women. The prime users of this are people like the Salafi's and Wahabi's.. Their quite ignorant to what Islam actually promotes.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2008 at 12:58am:

What a stupid question sprint.
Quote:


Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2008 at 12:58am:


Islam is growing incredibly fast, and is second in growth to only buddhism in Australia according to the last census.

Your assertion that Muslims generally have 8 kids per woman is a bit far fetched, care to back that up with a source?

Breeding like maggots? Thanks for showing your true feelings on Islam and Muslims Sprint.  

The fact still remains that even though the Christian West is in the Muslim lands, and brutally murdering it's inhabitants (more than 1 million in Iraq). We're still growing larger than you. 1.6 billion Muslims and increasing incredibly fast.

That must be a scary thought for you sprint.

BTW, you want to know where people want to escape to. It was the Jews who led Christian Europe to Islamic Spain and other places to live under the protection of Muslims from the persecution by the Christian hordes.

And of course Muslims are fleeing to the West now, what do you expect when the West bombs their countries, install dictators and support them while they brutally repress the inhabitants?

Malik Shakur wrote on Jun 28^th, 2008 at 12:19am:



You are getting warmer Malik, but you are not quite there yet.
This is understandable, because it is not a clear cut case of, "I don't like Muslims", it is more that I do not like many of the teachings of, and cultural norms, that muslims practice.
How offensive each particular behaviour, that I find objectionable, will vary in degree, dependent on the individuals involved.

If those behaviours were matters of concern for the human rights abuses inflicted on people in Islamic states alone, I would still feel the same, but when I see those same behaviours, demanding acceptance and respect, on religious/cultural grounds, in our own, non-muslim country, then I have the right to state that I consider them to be a negative influence in our society.

It is a cultural difference, and people accept what they have grown up with, but your justification for polygamy, and oppression of women, indicates the breadth of the divide, between our cultural norms.

To even contend that guys are being magnanimous in taking in "unloved" spare women, is so patently ludicrous to any from a western culture, but seems reasonable to you, only serves to highlight the cultural gap.
I don't want to bridge that gap, I am happy if you wish to ditch those ridiculous views and come over to the light, but I do not wish to see my culture have that light of freedom and enlightenmet, diminished by the creeping erosion of our values, by acquiescing to demands to validate and allow that which we believe to be wrong.