Australian Politics Forum - Islam and Australian values

freediver

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #90 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am

Abu:

It was implemented for over 1350 years straight, and very rarely did tyrants surface.

So that entire period had proper Islamic law in the middle east?

I'm more concerned about why you're not interested in listing commonalities.

It's because they are obvious and banal.

After all the entry is entitled "Islam and Australian values" so shouldn't it show an all-round picture of that topic?

It does. I have invited you to add a list of commonalities.

Some local Muslim groups, like the ones John Howard hand picked to represent us, are not upfront about Islam, agreed.

How so? Is there anything else they misrepresented that I haven't noticed?

The government may have slowed down immigration of Muslims into Australia

By how much?

But you'll find the vast majority of us are quite honest about our position and beliefs.

You seem a bit touchy about certain aspects.

Judaism also has a belief in a theocracy, and I'm sure there's members of Jewish groups here that call for a Halachic (their theocratic law system) state, so why aren't you as vocal about them?

Jews don't convert people. Most Jews I know embrace democracy, separation of church and state, human rights etc. They have traditionally been the victims of strong church influence on the state.

I didn't say that.

Could you elaborate then please? What is the penalty for Apostasy? This is what I mean about you being a bit touchy. I have to keep 'prodding' you for this information. There have been numerous back and forth comments about the penalty for apostasy in this thread, but still no-one has mentioned what the real penalty is. Don't you want people to know about Islam?

Of course they're not. As Malik pointed out, national service is also due upon Muslims.

So the tax on non-Muslims is higher? Obviously when I said there was a tax on non-Muslims, I didn't intend to imply that only non-Muslims pay tax.

Islam has a complete governmental system, would you expect it not to have tax laws???

Actually yes, I am surprised that any religion would put forth laws regarding taxation.

Sure you're used to thinking of religion in terms of Christianity only, but you must realise some other religions are much more than just personal rituals of worship.

Is Islam the only religion that doubles as a system of government?

Malik:

Christians are bound by Christian law and Jews are bound by Jewish law.

I don't think Christianity and Judaism are systems of government. Most laws would have to be made according to the wishes of the people rather than holy books.

There is a difference, an election is choosing a particular party within the same system. A referrendum may change the system as a whole.

Yes I know what the definitions are, but I wanted to know why it makes a difference to you. Would it change whether you would vote, or what you would vote for or against?

Such as?

Conquest, coup, etc.

The hadith needs to have context to it

Can you provide the context for us? It seems pretty clear cut to me - death for apostasy.

That's not quite true, the majority of the last century's most brutal men were elected in under a democracy.

The majority of the most brutal men who arose in democratic countries were elected, because that is how you rise to power. That is a reflection of the spread of democracy. Plenty of brutal men rose to power undemocratically in other places. You are right that democracy alone is not sufficient, but when it is coupled with human rights, separation of church and state, free press etc, it works better than any other system.

Regarding how much would be taken out, as you mentioned, rates are determined by the needs of the state.

Abu seems to be implying that there are specific laws regarding tax rates. For example he said that the taxes would be lower than Australian tax rates. How does he know that?

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #91 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 12:22pm

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

Malik:

Christians are bound by Christian law and Jews are bound by Jewish law.

I don't think Christianity and Judaism are systems of government. Most laws would have to be made according to the wishes of the people rather than holy books.

No, both have laws in which they can be governed by, there have been many a Christian and Jewish state (not including Israel). The only problem with these states is that they didn't make provisions in their teachings or holy books for people of other faiths, instead they murdered them. In an Islamic State however, it makes provisions for people of other religions to be protected under it.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

There is a difference, an election is choosing a particular party within the same system. A referrendum may change the system as a whole.

Yes I know what the definitions are, but I wanted to know why it makes a difference to you. Would it change whether you would vote, or what you would vote for or against?

It wouldn't make a difference to me, there is a difference of opinion however within the Muslim community, as to whether one should vote in any democratic elections. Some Muslims don't think it's appropriate, I respect their view but hold other views.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

Such as?

Conquest, coup, etc.

Not through conquest, unless another state is attacking the Islamic State and diplomacy fails because the other state are fanatical about removing the Islamic State from the face of the planet. If the state continues and the only other way of stopping them is taking over their lands, then so be it. There's no other option. Also if another state doesn't allow their people to learn about Islam and harms Islamic Diplomats.

And I don't think a coup would be acceptable, unless it's in a state like Saudi Arabia and other states which were part of the Islamic where there is no ability for people to choose an Islamic State and are instead ruled by dictators and kings who are not ruling according to Islam etc. Then if there is no other option, of course they'd have the right to resist their government and reestablish the Islamic State.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

The hadith needs to have context to it

Can you provide the context for us? It seems pretty clear cut to me - death for apostasy.

I've told you it's referring to a situation where people had committed treason, they had apostated also but their crime was treason.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Sc...

This is a fatwa regarding freedom of religion in Islam.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

That's not quite true, the majority of the last century's most brutal men were elected in under a democracy.

The majority of the most brutal men who arose in democratic countries were elected, because that is how you rise to power. That is a reflection of the spread of democracy. Plenty of brutal men rose to power undemocratically in other places. You are right that democracy alone is not sufficient, but when it is coupled with human rights, separation of church and state, free press etc, it works better than any other system.

Separation between church and state is not a protection from that at all, if the Islamic state protects peoples rights as you mentioned then certainly that'd be just as sufficient. In fact that has been proven by previous Islamic States, just because Christian and Jewish states don't work properly it doesn't implicate the Islamic State.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

Regarding how much would be taken out, as you mentioned, rates are determined by the needs of the state.

Abu seems to be implying that there are specific laws regarding tax rates. For example he said that the taxes would be lower than Australian tax rates. How does he know that?

Yes, but this is depending on the tax. Some have set values, the others have different values. The Islamic Taxation system is very complex.

It would certainly be less than Australian tax rates, Australian tax rates are oppressive and illogical and discourages production.

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mozzaok

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #92 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 1:12pm

Well Malik, I have tried to accept your replies as being offered in good faith, but your replies regarding apostasty have caused me to doubt your honesty, and question if your motive is to inform, or deceive.

It is a long and circular argument you offer that chooses to ignore some Hadith's and ambiguously interpret others. You state the reason for a death penalty is only treason, but that is open to the interpretation that any who choose to merely leave Islam, if they ever speak out against Islam, are in fact guilty of treason, by seeking to weaken Islam, by their verbal attacks, so any apostate is either sentenced to death outright, or forced to live in fear that any thing he says about Islam may be used to impose a death penalty at any time in his life.

Here is a you tube video, which quotes from hadiths, and Islamic courts and fatwas, that gives a pretty fair summation of the case in point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyKTAmnjng4

If you care to watch it, you may choose to argue against it, but it's fair and reasonable argument would be very difficult to honestly deny.

Many muslims use the texts to justify deceit.
It's OK to lie for reconciliation between people.
It's OK to lie to your wife, if it makes your life easier.
It's OK to lie if you are at war, because war is deceit.

So I can see a lot of muslims being able to indulge their deceit by using one of those reasons, in many varied and diverse circumstances.
Like Islam is being challenged, so we are fighting a war, even if it is a war of words, so anything goes.

It is a pretty elastic moral code which allows just about anyone to justify just about anything, and claim they are doing Allah's will.

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muso

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #93 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:06pm

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 5^th, 2008 at 10:58pm:

trolllllllllllllllllll..

sprint those aren't islamic values.

You might just as easily quote some examples from the troubles in Northern Ireland and state that it's a reflection of typical Christian values.

I've seen Islam and Christianity in a number of coutries, including Turkey, the Gulf states and Sub-Saharan Africa.

I made a post under the Spirituality forum about a female Muslim in Malaysia, complaining about the way Islam is changing. I noticed the same thing in Africa. It has become a lot more fundamentalist in many Sub Saharan countries, such as the coastal part of Tanzania. I remember a significant change between around 1980 and 1999, which was the last time I visited East Africa. The company I worked for in 1980 had many Muslims. My secretary at the time was Muslim, and she wore no headscarf. If I went back now, I'm pretty sure that she would be wearing a headscarf, but that's just one aspect of the religion. For that matter about the same year, I remember a female secretary in Abu Dhabi who wore standard office dress with no head scarf, and I'm sure she was quite typical.

I used to enjoy Ramadan in Mombasa, and kept sending Eid Ramadan cards for many years until we lost touch. I particularly used to enjoy the traditional fish pastries that were served on the breaking of the feast.

There has been a marked change in the nature of Islam, and I think it may be a result at least partly, of anti-Islamic feelings in the West.

Back in the 1980's in Kenya, it was common for the Red Cross and Red Crescent to work together, often from one office. That has now changed.

I think the fear among many Australians is that this very conservative brand of Islam is potentially threatening their way of life.

Christianity has undergone similar changes in the past.

My own personal concern is that Australian Muslims are becoming a closed society, and I have great doubts over attitudes towards apostacy and the lack of freedom for individuals to change their religions as they wish. I really think that many Muslim cultures have a great richness to offer Australia, but I see them as ingrown at this stage.

When the time comes that men women who grow up in an Islamic society can be treated as equals even if they have chosen spouses of different religions, then I think Islam will be more acceptable in Australian society. I don't believe that to be the case just yet, with perhaps a few exceptions.

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« Last Edit: Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:27pm by muso »

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #94 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:09pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 1:12pm:

It is a long and circular argument you offer that chooses to ignore some Hadith's and ambiguously interpret others. You state the reason for a death penalty is only treason, but that is open to the interpretation that any who choose to merely leave Islam, if they ever speak out against Islam, are in fact guilty of treason, by seeking to weaken Islam, by their verbal attacks, so any apostate is either sentenced to death outright, or forced to live in fear that any thing he says about Islam may be used to impose a death penalty at any time in his life.

Here is a you tube video, which quotes from hadiths, and Islamic courts and fatwas, that gives a pretty fair summation of the case in point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyKTAmnjng4

If you care to watch it, you may choose to argue against it, but it's fair and reasonable argument would be very difficult to honestly deny.

Of course I argue against it. There have been several fatwas from Al-Azhar which have been inappropriate. But Islamic law dictates apostacy is not punishable by death, it's if the person goes to war against the state in committing treason then that is when such punishments apply.

The guy in the video was right about one thing, he ISN'T an Islamic Scholar, his taking of hadiths and trying to apply context a judgement without knowing anything about the Qur'an and Sunnah is exactly what extremists do.

The hadiths he is referring to are not mutawatir hadiths and thus even according to the standards of hadith research do not hold much weight. That means they might not be reliable, of course we don't accept every hadith because it can be incorrect. We only accept the Qur'an as being 100% correct.

I will post a fatwa from the Grand Mufti of Al-Azhar university, the highest ranking Islamic scholar there is at it below.

mozzaok wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 1:12pm:

Many muslims use the texts to justify deceit.
It's OK to lie for reconciliation between people.
It's OK to lie to your wife, if it makes your life easier.
It's OK to lie if you are at war, because war is deceit.

Allow me to clarify

Firstly, if two people are quarraling, it is completely acceptable to try and stop that quarralling by telling each of them, that the other said good things about them.. That is to soften their hearts for reconciliation purposes.

Secondly, if your wife is wearing something that makes her butt look big, and she asks you if it makes her butt look big, or she's put on a little weight and is insecure about it or even if she's made some food which you dont like.. you can tell her butt doesnt look big or she's not fat or that you love the food.. that is so you don't hurt her feelings..

lastly, you can use deciet in war but that is a tactic, for example making your enemy think that they are fighting an unorganised force much smaller than them so they get arrogant and break ranks chasing your forces, only to be led into an ambush.. that doesn't break the rules of war when it comes to terms of surrender, truces, breaking promises etc.

There is nothing wrong with either of them.
mozzaok wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 1:12pm:

So I can see a lot of muslims being able to indulge their deceit by using one of those reasons, in many varied and diverse circumstances.
Like Islam is being challenged, so we are fighting a war, even if it is a war of words, so anything goes.

It is a pretty elastic moral code which allows just about anyone to justify just about anything, and claim they are doing Allah's will.

not really.. if it was islamic law to kill apostates i wouldn't hesitate to state that.. i fear God and not the opinion of non Muslims so what do i have to fear from you?

Islam is Islam, we don't change it to suit your tastes as sprint changes christianity

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #95 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:12pm

Quote:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/muslims_speak_out/2007/07/sheikh_ali_...
Freedom of Religion in Islam

The essential question before us is can a person who is Muslim choose a religion other than Islam? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,” [Quran, 109:6], and, “Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve,” [Quran, 18:29], and, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error,” [Quran, 2:256].

These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious perspective, the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment. If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society. Otherwise, the matter is left until the Day of Judgment, and it is not to be dealt with in the life of this world. It is an issue of conscience, and it is between the individual and God. In the life of this world, “There is no compulsion in religion,” in the life of this world, “Unto you your religion and unto me my religion,” and in the life of this world, “He who wills believes and he who wills disbelieves,” while bearing in mind that God will punish this sin on the Day of Judgment, unless it is combined with an attempt to undermine the stability of the society, in which case it is the society that holds them to account, not Islam.

All religions have doctrinal points that define what it is to be an adherent of that religion. These are divine injunctions that form the basis of every religion, but they are not a means for imposing a certain system of belief on others by force. According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.

In some cases, this sin of the individual may also represent a greater break with the commonly held values of a society in an attempt to undermine its foundations or even attack its citizenry. Depending on the circumstances, this may reach the level of a crime of sedition against one’s society. Penalizing this sedition may be at odds with some conceptions of freedom that would go so far as to ensure people the freedom to destroy the society in which they live. This is a freedom that we do not allow since preservation of the society takes precedence over personal freedoms. This was the basis of the Islamic perspective on apostasy when committed at certain times and under certain circumstances.

And another by him.

Quote:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/muslims_speak_out/2007/07/gomaas_stat...
Gomaa's Statement on Apostasy
A Statement by the Grand Mufti of Egypt on Apostasy and Freedom of Religion

I never retracted my statement on apostasy and freedom of religion. On Sunday I published an article in the Washington Post-Newsweek On Faith forum discussing the Islamic perspective on apostasy. I affirmed the freedom that God has afforded all of humanity in their right to choose their own religion without it being imposed upon them from the outside. Choice means freedom, and freedom includes the freedom to commit grave sins as long as their harm does not extend to others. This is why I discussed the fact that throughout history the worldly punishment for apostasy in Islam has been applied only to those who, in addition to their apostasy, actively engaged in the subversion of society.

These two points sum up a greater religious principle: with freedom comes responsibility. My remarks on the On Faith forum were picked up in local Egyptian papers, but they only focused on the question of freedom giving the impression that leaving Islam is a light matter. Nothing could be more serious. In order to maintain the balance of the original article my press team sent out a statement emphasizing the aspect of responsibility, mainly that apostasy is a grave sin and, when combined with sedition, is punishable in both this world and the next.
This balanced opinion is one that I have held for years and I have included in both my books and lectures. It is a position that I have never retracted. Unfortunately, some members of the press and the public understood this statement as a retraction of my position that Islam affords freedom of belief. I have always maintained the legitimacy of this freedom and I continue to do so.

About Dar al-Ifta

A fatwa is an official non-binding Islamic legal opinion issued by a qualified scholar in response to a question posed by a member of the public. The institution of Dar al-Ifta was established in 1895 with the purpose of issuing authoritative, accurate, and practical legal opinions. It is considered one of the few institutions authorized to issue fatwas in the Islamic world, and it issues over 5,000 fatwas a month in response to the questions it receives from all over the world by all forms of communication.

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mozzaok

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #96 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:28pm

Doesn't the abrogation clause negate those Malik?
I thought that any later quote, "trumped" an earlier quote, so to speak.
So the quotes of peace are abrogated by later quotes extolling violence.

Also, the point I made in an earlier thread, Who is in charge?, has never been answered.
We see clerics, who command wide spread respect and obedience, calling fatwas on people all the time, and you just say, he is not a reliable source, or that he is mistaken in his interpretation, it seems to be a system without any formal checks and balances to control extreme elements.
That is why so many people have come to fear the spread of a religion which essentially seems totally without direction, and certainly with no control over the actions perpetrated in it's name.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #97 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:31pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 2:28pm:

Doesn't the abrogation clause negate those Malik?
I thought that any later quote, "trumped" an earlier quote, so to speak.
So the quotes of peace are abrogated by later quotes extolling violence.

Also, the point I made in an earlier thread, Who is in charge?, has never been answered.
We see clerics, who command wide spread respect and obedience, calling fatwas on people all the time, and you just say, he is not a reliable source, or that he is mistaken in his interpretation, it seems to be a system without any formal checks and balances to control extreme elements.
That is why so many people have come to fear the spread of a religion which essentially seems totally without direction, and certainly with no control over the actions perpetrated in it's name.

What does abrogation have to do with the fatwas sorry?

Good question on who's in charge.. We have no Islamic State right now, all the states are run by kings, tyrants and dictators. When we have an Islamic State we'll have proper leadership insha'ALLAH (God Willing)

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mozzaok

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #98 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 4:48pm

Here you go Malik, but excuse me if I do not conceal my suspicion that your professing ignorance of "Abrogation", and how it pertains to the Quaran, is not totally honest, it seems implausible that a scholar of Islam could be ignorant of it.

The concept of "abrogation" in the Quran is that Allah chose to reveal ayat (singular ayah – means a sign or miracle, commonly a verse in the Quran) that supercede earlier ayat in the same Quran. The central ayah that deals with abrogation is Surah 2:106:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

For full article, go to;
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #99 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 5:50pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 4:48pm:

Here you go Malik, but excuse me if I do not conceal my suspicion that your professing ignorance of "Abrogation", and how it pertains to the Quaran, is not totally honest, it seems implausible that a scholar of Islam could be ignorant of it.

The concept of "abrogation" in the Quran is that Allah chose to reveal ayat (singular ayah – means a sign or miracle, commonly a verse in the Quran) that supercede earlier ayat in the same Quran. The central ayah that deals with abrogation is Surah 2:106:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

For full article, go to;
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm

I wasnt pretending to be ignorant about the issue at all. I just didn't quite undersatnd on how you were relating it to the particular issue we are talking about?

There is a big difference of opinion amongst muslims about the issue of apostacy and whether simply changing one's religion is punishable by death or whether it must come down to someone outwardly going against the state and trying to be subversive in addition to leaving islam..

some think that if a sane person does change their religion from Islam and wont change back then it's punishable by death, some think otherwise..

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40747 Gender:	Re: Islam and Australian values Reply #100 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 9:18pm malik - every infidel thinks that any belief that will murder those that want to leave it is one of the worst cults in the world. Noone thinks otherwise on that number. Except those already in that cult. They cant escape anyway, so they have no choice.
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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #101 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 9:39pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 9:18pm:

malik - every infidel thinks that any belief that will murder those that want to leave it is one of the worst cults in the world.

Noone thinks otherwise on that number.
Except those already in that cult. They cant escape anyway, so they have no choice.

wow really? you mean like your saviour jesus who is the God of the OT according to you had little children chopped up into pieces and pregnant women's wombs ripped out and them and their unborn children brutally murdered because they left their religion?

Yeah that makes sense.

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #102 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 9:53pm

thought i heard a muslim say allah is the same God as in the OT ?

if you want to misinterperet the OT in that way, you are saying the same of your allah.

Anyway, back to the topic.
Sane people see any group that kills those that want to leave that group as abhorrant.
It is a normal move of any cult. Well, hardly any kill, they just dissuade people from leaving.
muslims are the only ones that murder.

Interestingly, many cults have a "leader" who is into multiple wives and often paedophilia.
There is NO questioning the leader.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #103 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:01pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 6^th, 2008 at 9:53pm:

thought i heard a muslim say allah is the same God as in the OT ?

if you want to misinterperet the OT in that way, you are saying the same of your allah.

Anyway, back to the topic.
Sane people see any group that kills those that want to leave that group as abhorrant.
It is a normal move of any cult. Well, hardly any kill, they just dissuade people from leaving.
muslims are the only ones that murder.

Interestingly, many cults have a "leader" who is into multiple wives and often paedophilia.
There is NO questioning the leader.

No, we believe that God sent the taurat, not the OT. The Taurat that was sent and corrupted by the people over time.

So by your own definition, the God of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ, thus it was he who ordered these little kids to be chopped into pieces and pregnant women's wombs to be ripped out and them and their unborn babies killed because they apostated.

Plus your God allowed Mary pbuh to marry Joseph when he was 90 and she was 12 and have babies after Jesus pbuh was born. So according you you, God impregnated Mary with Himself when she was 12, let her marry a 90 year old, and after he was born let her have kids with a 90 year old.. Wow that's really classy..

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #104 - Jul 6^th, 2008 at 10:40pm

What is Islamic law regarding music, alcohol, marijuana and other drugs?

What is the penalty under Islam for apostasy?

No, both have laws in which they can be governed by, there have been many a Christian and Jewish state

Only in a nominal sense. Christianity is a religion, not a system of government. When you try to extend it to a system of government, it doesn't work very well. Saying that Christians should live under Christian law doesn't make sense because there is no 'Christian law' in the same way there is Islamic law.

What about atheists and non-abrahamic religions?

The only problem with these states is that they didn't make provisions in their teachings or holy books for people of other faiths

No, that is not the only problem in trying to figure out what 'Christian law' is.

It wouldn't make a difference to me, there is a difference of opinion however within the Muslim community, as to whether one should vote in any democratic elections. Some Muslims don't think it's appropriate, I respect their view but hold other views.

Do those other Muslims distinguish between elections and referendums?

re: coups and conquests. I know you said before you would simply vote in a theocracy. But technically Islam forbids democracy. Abu responded to this by giving the example of Muhammed's method, which seems to be the unification of warring tribes into an Islamic state. Obviously that model is pretty useless when it comes to a state that already exists. Is there a 'policy vacuum' in Islamic law on this issue?

I've told you it's referring to a situation where people had committed treason, they had apostated also but their crime was treason.

When you were responding to sprint's previous 'out of context' quotes you would quote the entire passage and/or explain the translational issues. can you do the same for that quote? It just seems so self-contained that it is hard to imagine anything preceding it that would change it's meaning.

Separation between church and state is not a protection from that at all, if the Islamic state protects peoples rights as you mentioned then certainly that'd be just as sufficient.

I'm not so sure it does protect those rights. It seems to have done a better job of protecting minorities than Europe. But that is only a small part of the rights I am interested in. Obviously separation of church and state alone does not achieve anything, but is part of the doctrine of separation of powers (including the media, police, the courts etc) that makes democracy work. Centralisation of power makes tyranny inevitable.

In fact that has been proven by previous Islamic States, just because Christian and Jewish states don't work properly it doesn't implicate the Islamic State.

I'm not using Europe to show that Islamic states don't work. But I do think that Islamic states are doomed to fail for very similar reasons, and have done so.

Yes, but this is depending on the tax. Some have set values, the others have different values. The Islamic Taxation system is very complex.

Can you give a few examples? I'll lose interest once it gets too complicated.

It would certainly be less than Australian tax rates, Australian tax rates are oppressive and illogical and discourages production.

We obviously don't think so. I personally support a reduction in the total burden as a lot is getting wasted. But I wouldn't go as far as the example set by the US. How does Islam fit into that picture? Is it more extreme than the US?

from Mozz:

It is a long and circular argument you offer that chooses to ignore some Hadith's and ambiguously interpret others. You state the reason for a death penalty is only treason, but that is open to the interpretation that any who choose to merely leave Islam, if they ever speak out against Islam, are in fact guilty of treason, by seeking to weaken Islam, by their verbal attacks, so any apostate is either sentenced to death outright, or forced to live in fear that any thing he says about Islam may be used to impose a death penalty at any time in his life.

Is that true Malik? Is merely criticising Islam treasonous? Can Islam justify misleading the Australian people so as to achieve 'reconciliation'?

muso:

When the time comes that men women who grow up in an Islamic society can be treated as equals even if they have chosen spouses of different religions

I think Muslim men are allowed under Islamic law to marry Christian or Jewish women, but not atheists on 'non-Abrahamic' religions.

Malik:

not really.. if it was islamic law to kill apostates i wouldn't hesitate to state that.. i fear God and not the opinion of non Muslims so what do i have to fear from you?

Why won't you say what the penalty for apostasy actually is?

There is a big difference of opinion amongst muslims about the issue of apostacy and whether simply changing one's religion is punishable by death or whether it must come down to someone outwardly going against the state and trying to be subversive in addition to leaving islam..

Interesting. So many Muslims believe apostasy is punishable by death? Could you estimate a percentage? Is it based on that quote that you insist has been taken out of context?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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