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The ideal islamic society (Read 10026 times)
freediver
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #15 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:10am
 
Okay, not really – that’s a hysterical, right-wing nightmare of a future Muslim London

Actually, the kid would have been stoned to death, not strung up, right Mailk and Abu?

This racism is a rather recent occurence.

It simply didn't exist prior to about 50-100 years ago.

Is that because there weren't any SE Asian domestic workers? Or because there were slaves instead? It's not racist to treat someone different if they are a slave, right?

People here aren't getting any fitter and we don't put an emphasis on trying to fix the problem

Yes we do.
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Ray_A
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #16 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 5:43am
 
First a comment on this part of the Time Out article:

Quote:
Alcohol is haram, or forbidden, to Muslims. As London is above the national average for alcohol-related deaths in males, with 17.6 per 100,000 people (Camden has 31.6 per 100,000 males), turning all the city’s pubs into juice bars would have a massive positive effect on public health. Forbid alcohol throughout the country, and you’d avoid many of the 22,000 alcohol-related deaths and the £7.3 billion national bill for alcohol-related crime and disorder each year.


Forbid alcohol throughout the country? What about smoking? Many of the Muslims I know smoke, because I don't believe this is forbidden in Islam (?). In Australia tobacco kills nearly 20,000 every year. Alcohol kills nearly 3,000. Will smoking be banned too? How will Muslims addicted to the evil weed react upon learning that the one vice many of them cherish (since they can't drink alcohol) will be outlawed?

If we're all getting too fat, will MacDonalds, Hungry Jacks, Red Rooster, and all fast food stores of like nature be closed down? To me this smacks of a police state. Sure we have problems with obesity and alcohol-related crimes (I deal with the latter every night I work), but does any society really want to go down this radical pathway of controlling behaviour to this extent?
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Ray_A
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #17 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 6:03am
 
More from Time Out

Quote:
Public health
On the surface, Islamic health doesn’t look good: the 2001 census showed that 24 per cent of Muslim women and 21 per cent of Muslim men suffered long-term illness and disability. But these are factors of social conditions rather than religion. In fact, Islam offers Londoners potential health benefits: the Muslim act of prayer is designed to keep worshippers fit, their joints supple and, at five times a day, their stomachs trim. The regular washing of the feet and hands required before prayers promotes public hygiene and would reduce the transmission of superbugs in London’s hospitals.


I see nothing wrong with this, as long as people can choose whether they want to observe these laws or not.

Quote:
Ecology
‘The world is green and beautiful,’ said the prophet Muhammad, ‘and Allah has appointed you his guardian over it.’ The Islamic concept of halifa or trusteeship obliges Muslims to look after the natural world and Muhammad was one of the first ever environmentalists, advocating hima – areas where wildlife and forestry are protected. So we could expect more public parks under Islam, but halifa also applies to recycling: in 2006, 12,000 Muslims attended a series of sermons at the East London Mosque explaining the theological evidence for a link between behaving in an environmentally sustainable way and the Islamic faith.


Nothing wrong with this either, as long as its not enforced. The Greens do enough of that enforcement already, without even bringing God into it.
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Ray_A
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #18 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 6:28am
 
Quote:
Food
Application of halal (Arabic for ‘permissable’) dietary laws across London would free us at a stroke from our addiction to junk food, and the general adoption of a south Asian diet rich in fruit juice, rice and vegetables with occasional mutton or chicken would have a drastic effect on obesity, hyperactivity, attention deficit disorders and associated public health problems. As curry is already Londoners’ and the nation’s favourite food (see our Brick Lane food feature), it would be a relatively easy process to encourage the adoption of such a diet. Not eating would be important as well. The annual fasting month of Ramadan instils self-discipline, courtesy and social cohesion. And Londoners would benefit philosophically and physically from even a short period when we weren’t constantly ramming food into our mouths.


I love curry, but once in a while I also like a juicy Hungry Jacks hamburger, and I'm not overweight. It's about choice. None of these fast foods would have become so popular if people didn't demand them. The old English fish and chips isn't exactly healthy either, but it's old, traditional, and very enjoyable. Alternatively, we could force everyone on to the most healthy diet and have something like a Pritikin Take Away. No arguments there, that would thin us all out in a matter of weeks. We could also make it legislation to outlaw Red Rooster and Maccas because it's dangerous to our health. That way we could have a thin and depressed society. We would all live to 120, but where would be some of the simple life-enjoyments that we all now demand?

As long as all of the suggested dietary laws apply only to Muslims, I have no problem with that. But if it's going to encroach upon my freedom of choice, I'll fight it tooth and nail.

Quote:
Inter-faith relations
In an Islamic London, Christians and Jews – with their allegiance to the Bible and the Talmud – would be protected as ‘peoples of the book’. Hindus and Sikhs manage to live alongside a large Muslim population in India, so why not here? Although England has a long tradition of religious bigotry against, for instance, Roman Catholics, it is reasonable to assume that under the guiding hand of Islam a civilised accommodation could be made among faith groups in London. This welcoming stance already exists in the capital in the form of the City Circle (see Yahya Birt interview), which encourages inter-faith dialogue and open discussion.


Why under the "guiding hand of Islam"? You've already mentioned laws against inciting religious hatred. There are also laws against inciting prejudice or hatred against people because of their sexuality. Will Islam protect Gay people against prejudice? Or should we leave that jurisprudence to a secular state, which would fairly apply laws for all citizens, not just religions? Religious or theocratic states don't work for the benefit of all, they work for the benefit of their guiding philosophies and beliefs, which exclude some. Will atheism eventually be outlawed as well? Heck, we went through this two centuries ago! We are long past the burning of heretics and books. We don't need any modern Inquisitions, and we need far more than just "inter-faith" dialogue, ALL must be included in any dialogue which concerns the future of our society.
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freediver
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #19 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:59am
 
I see nothing wrong with this, as long as people can choose whether they want to observe these laws or not.

If that were the case they wouldn't be laws would they?
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #20 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 10:06am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:59am:
I see nothing wrong with this, as long as people can choose whether they want to observe these laws or not.

If that were the case they wouldn't be laws would they?


Referring to Islamic laws. Perhaps I wasn't clear. If I want to become a Muslim, I'll agree to observe those laws, but they should not be imposed on society as a whole, which is being suggested in the article.
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #21 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:07pm
 
Could anyone read Malik's paste, of the fantasy Islamic world, and not wonder where the pixies and elves fit in?
They don't drink, but if they come up with those sorts of fantasies when sober, that is probably a good thing.

Do muslims have a hell?
Because if they want to ban the rest of us having booze then I think that may be it.
What a bunch of spoilsport wowsers.
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #22 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:30pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:07pm:
Because if they want to ban the rest of us having booze then I think that may be it.
What a bunch of spoilsport wowsers.


Interestingly, did you know that the US outlawed Alcohol in the 1920s, up till the 30s? It was known as prohibition.
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #23 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 1:34am
 
Al-Gharib wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:30pm:
mozzaok wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:07pm:
Because if they want to ban the rest of us having booze then I think that may be it.
What a bunch of spoilsport wowsers.


Interestingly, did you know that the US outlawed Alcohol in the 1920s, up till the 30s? It was known as prohibition.


It was a failure. Many social problems have been attributed to the Prohibition era. A profitable and violent black market for alcohol flourished. Racketeering happened when powerful gangs corrupted law enforcement agencies. The cost of enforcing Prohibition was high, and the lack of tax revenues on alcohol affected government coffers. When repeal of Prohibition occurred in 1933, organized crime lost nearly all of its black market alcohol profits.

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freediver
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #24 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:19am
 
The Americans learned from their mistake.
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #25 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 11:27am
 
Al-Gharib wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:30pm:
mozzaok wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:07pm:
Because if they want to ban the rest of us having booze then I think that may be it.
What a bunch of spoilsport wowsers.


Interestingly, did you know that the US outlawed Alcohol in the 1920s, up till the 30s? It was known as prohibition.


And a little historical insight of which you may not have been aware, Al. Utah (a US state teeming with teetotal Mormons) was one of the six states which broke the voting deadlock overturning Prohibition. Although officially advised their leaders to vote to retain Prohibition, they thumbed their nose at this advice, realising that all Prohibition was doing was fostering criminal elements. We know there are problems, but they can't be solved with threats nor curtailing basic freedoms.

One thing we've learned from history is that trying to control people en masse never works. It didn't work in Germany, and it didn't work in Russia. The whole idea of democracy is government of the people, by the people, and for the people, even if it doesn't always work. It was Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of government, all the others excepted.

There are also some uncanny ironies in this general debate. From what I gather, posters who would not normally support Sprint in all of his anti-Muslim views, are now rallying to support his right to free speech. Posters who would not normally care much to comment on Sprint's posts, are now reading them. What you're doing is having the very opposite effect of your intentions. To put it in a nutshell, it's like trying to put out a fire with kerosene.   
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Acid Monkey
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #26 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 12:01pm
 
Ray_A wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 11:27am:
There are also some uncanny ironies in this general debate. From what I gather, posters who would not normally support Sprint in all of his anti-Muslim views, are now rallying to support his right to free speech. Posters who would not normally care much to comment on Sprint's posts, are now reading them. What you're doing is having the very opposite effect of your intentions. To put it in a nutshell, it's like trying to put out a fire with kerosene.    


Spot on!
Smiley
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #27 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:36pm
 
It would be fair to say that an "ideal" Islamic state would be one which has no contact with the wider world.
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #28 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 5:38pm
 
Pommy Bastard wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:36pm:
It would be fair to say that an "ideal" Islamic state would be one which has no contact with the wider world.

Not true at all, the Islamic state always had contact with the wider world and had very good trade relations with many nations.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: The ideal islamic society
Reply #29 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 6:26pm
 
Is there a link I can go to for what you consider an ideal Caliphate (based on history examples) - not the London example.

Smiley
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