Karnal wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2014 at 10:54am:


Christians claimed it was "God's revenge" for the "blasphemy" of Life of Brian. 

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We all do.   

freediver wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2014 at 12:37pm:



So Muslims were responsible for Life of Brian?  You really are moving into crackpot territory!   

Brandis and Abbott botched the 18c debate, for sure.
There should be no legal intervention to protect people’s subjective feelings - what is offensive , insulting or humiliating are largely personal issues of sensitivity and no law can set an objective standard for subjective perception.
Replacing these with intimidate and vilify removes some of the exessively subjective aspects of the current wording but is not a sufficiently clear distinction from what is in place.

Once the anti terror laws are bedded down this issue shoul be and will be revisited.

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LOL, do they also sing kumbayah?

What about depicting and mocking Muhammed?

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Crap. When people draw cartoons of Muhammed, mainstream Muslims cannot bring themselves to utter the word freedom. Even Muslims like you avoid it like the plague.

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18c is not the only situation where we balance freedom of speech against other rights and freedoms Gandalf. By trying to make this point you merely demonstrate your inability to even comprehend what is going on. You have tried this trick before. Disagreeing over where to draw the line is not the same thing as being unable to utter the word freedom in a positive context because your religion is hostile to it.

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The 18c debate. The Muhammed cartoons. The Muhammed video. The Satanic verses. I have explained what makes Muslims unique in every one of my last dozen posts. I have pointed out your own taboos. You pretend your values, and those of other Muslims, are compatible with western values, but you can only do this when you ignore the issue of whether people have a right to depict and mock Muhammed. Nothing demonstrates Islam's offense at western values more clearly than this one issue. You running away from it is hardly reassuring, and is not going to convince anyone.

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Let's start with what Annie posted above.

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Have you ever asked a mainstream Australian whether it is OK to ban Muhammed cartoons? Mainstream Australians debate issues like the 18c legislation. As I have already pointed out, this is a very long way from the debate that needs to happen within the Muslim community about the right to depict and mock Muhammed. For most Australians, it simply goes without saying. That we can have a significant minority of Australians (ie Muslims) who are fundamentally opposed to freedom of speech, without a broad debate, is reflective of the efforts of Muslims such as yourself to avoid the debate and misrepresent the compatibility of Islam and western values. A good demonstration of this has occurred right here in this thread. Muslims are not having the debate about freedom of speech. Every time a non-Muslim asks a Muslim about the topic, the Muslim pretends that have suddenly gone deaf. If you honestly believe that mainstream Australians are indifferent to their right to depict and mock religious figures, you are simply deluded. I can only conclude from your efforts to avoid the debate that you are aware of how Islam is so irretrievably at odds with western values.

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The 18c debate was not about the right to depict and mock Muhammed. It was about balancing conflicting rights and freedoms. Banning the depiction and mockery of Muhammed on the other hand is an outright rejection of the most basic precepts of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

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I have not cited anything as evidence, because it never occurred to me that you would suggest I need to prove it.

Before we go into the evidence of whether non-Muslims are pro-freedom, can we finally have a response from you regarding your own views on whether people should have the right to depict and mock Muhammed? I would hate to falsely accuse you of being able to answer a basic question regarding your views.

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Does the OIC count as mainstream?

You have failed to produce a single Muslim speaking out in direct support of this right, in response to a very long list of Muslims and Muslim organisations trying to destroy this right, and Islam itself being opposed to the right.

You have also proven yourself unwilling to state your own views on the matter.

The ball is in your court Gandalf.

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We already have that right. Why would we demand something we already have? But just to humour you, and to offer an example I have already given in this thread, Barak Obama recently demanded that the right be maintained. You'll have trouble finding non-Muslims who disagree with him. It was basically an exercise in stating the bleeding obvious.

I haven't heard of the OIC - please show me what they have said that indicates mainstream muslims are less supportive of free speech than the rest of society.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:


I'm sure I could find one, just as I could find one speaking to the opposite. But that wouldn't tell us anything about what the mainstream says. Just as you have singularly failed to produce anything that indicates the mainstream non-muslims are any different to muslims on this issue.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:


Yes of course, 30 page threads don't count.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:


Muslims in Australia already have that right, why would they demand something they already have? You really do excel at finding interesting and original ways to not make sense FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:


And you just flat out fail at demonstrating there is any reason whatsoever to think that mainstream muslims disagree with him.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:52pm:


Sorry, I thought you were going to show me a demonstration of Australian mainstream muslims demonstrating their hostility to free speech. My bad.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:52pm:


Just like there was a debate in the wider community, in which it was overwhelmingly agreed that freedom of speech should be limited - even to the point to protect people from mere offense?

Really not making much progress on the whole "non-muslims in Australia have demonstrated they  like our freedoms more than mainstream Australian muslims" - are we?