polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 7:17pm:


Here you go Gandalf, a veritable plethora of Shiite by the Shiite's is available on the website. They wanted  blasphemy of the Mo made an offence under the UN. If the stupid crap had been agreed to all Muslims would have become blasphemers! Just shows the stupidity of Muslims/Islam. For instance you do believe Jesus was the son of God/Allah don't you?
http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv2/home/?lan=en

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 8:22pm:


Thats about the oldest trick in the book to try and cover up failure in an argument.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 1:15pm:


if you insist on painting it in this oversimplistic dichotomy, then I suppose on that basis it is bad.

But we don't live in this simplistic world you paint. We live in a world where prejudice and bigotry - arguably the greatest threat to mankind - is always simmering just below the surface, and needs just the slightest encouragement to come bursting out. In a perfect world, your sentiments would be spot on, but in the real world, there is a whole other side of the question - which you refuse to acknowledge. A side that we must be every bit as vigilant against as you insist we should be on the freedom side.

I know what you will counter with - that the antidote against the threats from both is to embrace freedom even more wholeheartedly; that a sort of "free market" political and intellectual environment will sort us all out for the better. I cannot agree with such an idealism, and I am particularly intolerant of it when it is being lectured by someone who is from the dominant, privileged strata of our society. Someone who will never experience real discrimination or prejudice, demanding that the most vulnerable stand up and embrace the idea that they should be mocked and ridiculed for their cultural and ethnic background.

Mainstream Australia is with me on this, and you FD, are on the fringe. Mainstream Australians demonstrably share the muslim communities misgivings about the idea that bigotry and intolerance should be openly acknowledged as a "right" in our society. And you simply cannot isolate the concept of "the right to draw a mere cartoon" from this context. The cartoons were made for offense - they literally had no other purpose, and like it or not, most people have a problem with that. For them the question is not so much "should people have the right to draw them?", its "should they draw them?" (a subtle but important difference), coupled with "why do they draw them?" Which is why consistent majorities across all the western countries - including Australia - were adamant that the cartoons should not have been published. Thats not muslims saying this, this is the whole of society. And you can't simply fob it off by saying "oh thats only because they know how the mussies will react" - since it would ignore some other things we know about our society's attitudes - like the fact that most people think there should be laws in place to protect against mere offense. That would put mainstream Australian society in the "spineless apologist" camp according to you - yet somehow you continue with the fairy tale that its only a muslim "problem" - and that the rest of society is on the same page as you - when clearly they are not.

Mainstream muslims are not bigoted and prejudiced, irrespective of whether or not you think their religion is.

FD's waffling in this thread is a first class exhibition of his singular failure to make the case that muslims are any more against our freedoms than the wider community.

When there is not a shred of evidence to support his contention, literally the only thing left for him is to base the argument solely on an interpretation of islam that mainstream muslims demonstrably reject. He falls back on this logical fallacy time and time again.

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 4:19pm:



polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 4:04pm:


I rest my case.

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Because you cannot embrace freedom in anything but a superficial sense?

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That makes no sense. Freedom and human rights are what protects minorities.

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You never did clarify the bit about mocking Muhammed. You appear to support people's right to do this, so long as Muslims don't get upset about it. In other words, you think historical religious and political figures should be protected from criticism by law - something the vast majority would disagree with you, for good reason - but you will do the typical Muslim thing of trying to deceive people into thinking the opposite.

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I don't think anyone knows where you stand. You have spent the entire thread ducking and weaving on the issue and trying to pretend the issue of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed is the same as the 18c debate. I interpret this as a deliberate act of deception on your part. You are trying to pass off your own views, and those of 'mainstream' Muslims, as compatible with western values like freedom of speech. You can only do this by avoiding the topic at all costs.

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Yes you can. It is quite simple. We have the right to draw such cartoons. This right should be defended from the efforts of Muslims like you and your fellow head hackers to destroy it. By offering nothing but weasel words, the 'mainstream' Muslim community offers consent by way of silence for the head hacking lunatics to take care of the problem on their behalf.

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That's what freedom of speech means - supporting the right of others to say something you might not like. I have a problem with all the lies and BS coming from Muslims. I think they should stop it. Do you hear me suggesting that they should not have the right to say these things?

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When it comes to OIC-style legislation to ban them, or dealing with the Muslims who try to scare people into self-censorship, or the 'mainstream' Muslim community refusing to take a stance, it is exactly about the right to draw them. This is an entirely different issue to whether people should draw them, which is a personal choice for the individual, not something Muslims get to dictate to everyone else.

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What makes you think that? Do these majorities support removing our right to publish such cartoons? Do they support the efforts of Muslim extremists to scare people into self censorship? If you cannot even honestly represent your own views, I have no confidence in your ability to represent the views of the majority of Australian.

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No historical religious figure should be protected by law from criticism. You agreed to this yourself. Most people actually mean it when they say this. They don't invent your weasel words to take it all back. The 18c debate was not about taking back people's right to depict and mock Muhammed.

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I have made the case, very clearly, over and over again. You have simply ignored it.

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:04pm:


The old boy’s on exactly the same page as G on this. He doesn’t give a stool whether Christians are offended by Pss Christ or not. The old boy simply hates the gall of those who, in his words, "grin".

Like G, the old boy questions the motives of those who do the offending, not the act of offence, which for the old boy is usually encouraged. If the offender is a mendatious, grinning, yeah-but-no-but numpty, he should have the decency to keep his trap shut and grin in private.

If the offender speaks out against all that is Islamic, even if he’s telling porkies, then no one has the right not to be offended.

It is an old boy world, no?

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Should the recent Muhammed cartoons be banned? Your entire argument depends on the intention of the author and who takes offense, not the content of what you want banned, so you can hardly blame me for not knowing. You refuse to simply come out and say what you want banned, because you are too busy trying to deceive people into thinking that you support freedom of speech. You endlessly excuse and justify your views, but you do not say what they are.

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Can you quote any non-Muslims who want a ban on depicting and mocking Muhammed? You rpetend that Muslims are on the same page as mainstream Australians, yet you have failed to produce a single Muslim supporting the right of people to depict and mock Muhammed, or a non-Muslim arguing that this right should be taken away. In contrast, I have given you plenty of examples of Muslims arguing the right should be takena way, or trying to take it with force, and of non-Muslims defending the right. For some reason, in a Muslim's eyes, this counts as me producing no evidence.

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I have experienced it first hand. I have been physically assaulted by neo Nazis, for example. The weasel words are you pretending that you are 'holding hands' with mainstream Australians and claiming you believe no historical figure should be protected from criticism or mockery, then taking it all back if Muslims get offended.

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It is not a 'sinister plot'. It is Islam. Abu was against freedom of speech, but tried to pretend he supports it. You are against freedom of speech, but try to pretend you support it. It is an anti-freedom ideology that preaches putting up with freedom for only as long as you have no choice.

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People are already scared to depict and mock Muhammed. Anyone making a real movie about Muhammed would have genuine reason to fear for their person safety. Even Annie recognises this as a bad thing. The only pretending it is not a problem is you.