Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam against free speech?

Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #180 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 6:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:43pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 4:46pm:

You never did clarify the bit about mocking Muhammed.

Wow FD, you were so busy dissecting my last post to the extent that you didn't even realise it was a nuanced clarification of just that.

Thats the problem with your method of replying by dissecting each sentence as if they are separate statements completely isolated from each other.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 4:46pm:

Yes you can. It is quite simple. We have the right to draw such cartoons.

It is not that simple, and most Australians think this view is foolish. This is just the sort of tunnel visioned arrogance that demonstrates how out of touch with our society's values you really are.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 4:46pm:

This right should be defended from the efforts of Muslims like you and your fellow head hackers to destroy it. By offering nothing but weasel words, the 'mainstream' Muslim community offers consent by way of silence for the head hacking lunatics to take care of the problem on their behalf.

The 'weasel words' are these exact sort of arrogant and empty platitudes from someone who will never live to experience nor understand real prejudice and discrimination.

'Weasel words' are stirring up ethnic and religious tension that never existed in the first place, by demanding pledges of loyalty that no one has any good reason to believe hadn't existed all along. 'Weasel words' come from people who lecture minorities to 'get with the program' by dismissing their very real fear of discrimination as some sort of sinister 'anti-freeeedom' plot, all the while staying completely silent to actual threats to our freedom, like the raft of 'anti terrorism' laws that just passed through our parliament with barely a peep of opposition.

Cunning, no?

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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #181 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 6:38pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:04pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 3:57pm:

Nobody is more bigoted and prejudiced than the strict adherents of Islam and followers of Mohammed.

Rather like the strict adherents of Christianity in that regard, hey, Soren?

Who's forgotten the "Piss Christ", "Life of Brian", "Last Temptation of Christ" and other similar contraversies of modern times reaching right back to the suppression of scientific knowledge such as that of Galilleo and Copernicus? You will, of course. Roll Eyes

Then we have the suppression of Christian "heresies", such as the Gnostocism, Catharism and Waldensians. Hardly free speech allowed there, now was it, Soren? Roll Eyes

Even the Prostentant sects have ostrocised and suppressed various beliefs they considered heretical, now haven't they, Soren? Wink

You are an idiot, Brain. Nobody was killed because of Life of Brian or the rest.
There is no law protecting Christianity from mockery and nobody dies if it is ridiculed or called poison. You can’t say that about Islam today.
You are dishonest if you want to compare the west centuries ago to Islam today. A spineless, dishonest apoligist.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #182 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 7:26pm

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

Should the recent Muhammed cartoons be banned?

No, and no one is saying it should be. You clearly miss the point of what the debate is about.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

Can you quote any non-Muslims who want a ban on depicting and mocking Muhammed?

Maybe - but I could certainly quote plenty of non-muslims who want a ban on denying the holocaust. In fact its law here. I bet I could find a thousand different ways in which non-muslims in Australia are 'out of step' with your take on our values. Yet somehow people specifically coming out and calling for freedoms to be curtailed doesn't matter - no, its all about what muslims don't say, go figure Tongue

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

I have experienced it first hand. I have been physically assaulted by neo Nazis

My sympathies - nevertheless it is not discrimination or prejudice. Its a simple crime. Minorities like muslims face the very real threat of intimidation and actual attacks become culturalised - and possibly even institutionalised. That is something neither you or I will ever have to fear because of our ethnic origin.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

You are against freedom of speech, but try to pretend you support it.

So you keep saying. The reality is I am in perfect step with the rest of Australia - and you haven't produced a damn thing to indicate otherwise. I'm willing to admit I, and the rest of Australia, is against your demented version of 'freedom', but that is definitely not a muslim thing - its a 'freediver being completely out of step with Australian values' thing.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm:

People are already scared to depict and mock Muhammed. Anyone making a real movie about Muhammed would have genuine reason to fear for their person safety. Even Annie recognises this as a bad thing. The only pretending it is not a problem is you.

No, this is you failing at comprehension, and bringing in strawmen.

Where have I said there isn't a problem with islamic extremism? Me saying you have no shred of evidence that mainstream muslims are out of step with the rest of Australia vis-a-vis our freedoms and values, is not saying there is no problem with non-mainstream extremist muslims, and that they don't pose a very real threat to people's freedoms.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #183 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:00pm

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 6:38pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:04pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 3:57pm:

Nobody is more bigoted and prejudiced than the strict adherents of Islam and followers of Mohammed.

Rather like the strict adherents of Christianity in that regard, hey, Soren?

Who's forgotten the "Piss Christ", "Life of Brian", "Last Temptation of Christ" and other similar contraversies of modern times reaching right back to the suppression of scientific knowledge such as that of Galilleo and Copernicus? You will, of course. Roll Eyes

Then we have the suppression of Christian "heresies", such as the Gnostocism, Catharism and Waldensians. Hardly free speech allowed there, now was it, Soren? Roll Eyes

Even the Prostentant sects have ostrocised and suppressed various beliefs they considered heretical, now haven't they, Soren? Wink

You are an idiot, Brain. Nobody was killed because of Life of Brian or the rest.

Oh, and I thought we were talking about principles again, Soren. I keep making that mistake, don't I? I keep forgetting that when you mention something, you're talking only about Islam and Muslims and don't like comparisons with other religions. Roll Eyes

You're right, no one was killed, threats however were made and attacks did occur, now didn't they, Soren? Roll Eyes

Quote:

There is no law

[now]

protecting Christianity from mockery and nobody

[now]

dies if it is ridiculed or called poison. You can’t say that about Islam today.

Sorry, just had to correct you statement, to make it factually correct, Soren.

I agree, you can't say that about Islam today. However, not all Muslims agree with that view, do they, Soren? I've spoken about how you try and erect this strawman view of Islam and Muslims, trying to create a monolith where none exists. Roll Eyes

Quote:

You are dishonest if you want to compare the west centuries ago to Islam today. A spineless, dishonest apoligist.

Again, I was obviously mistake to assume you were talking about the principle of Freedom of Speech versus reaction to blasphemy. I mean there can't be any comparison really, can there between some Muslim murdering someone because of their perception of blasphemy and some Christian threatening to murder someone because of their perception of blasphemy, now can there?

Quote:

THE obscure law of blasphemy was last used successfully in Australia in 1871.

But that didn’t deter Archbishop George Pell from using the ancient common law offence to seek an injunction to stop controversial artwork Piss Christ from being shown in 1997.

The photograph by American artist Andres Serrano – who was awarded a $US15,000 government prize for the piece - had stirred headlines since it was first shown in 1987.

From a series titled Immersions, the image was one of several depicting statues in fluids including milk and blood.

But it was the sight of a miniature crucifix in what was said to be a cup of urine that raised the ire of the Archbishop when Piss Christ was brought to Melbourne as part of a Serrano exhibition at the National Gallery of Victoria.

On behalf of Australian Catholics, Dr Pell asked the Supreme Court to ban the image from public display, with the exhibition due to open the following day.

He argued showing the photograph would amount to blasphemous libel, or alternatively was indecent or obscene under the Summary Offences Act.

The only other time the blasphemy law had been tried in Victoria was in 1919, when the case was dropped before reaching trial.

The three-hour hearing before Justice David Harper cited cases dating back to the 1600s.

But it was uncertain whether the rarely used offence of blasphemous libel still existed in Victorian law.

Cliff Pannam QC, for Archbishop Pell, told the court Piss Christ might be an attractive photograph on its own, “even beautiful”.

But the title and the presence of bubbles implied the cross had been urinated on, which was deeply offensive and demeaned the religion’s most important symbol.

"Both the name and the image Piss Christ not only demean Christianity but also represent a grossly offensive, scurrilous and insulting treatment of Christianity's most sacred and holy symbol. It is calculated to outrage the feelings of Catholics and other Christians," Dr Pell said in his affidavit to the court.

The gallery did not contest the allegation that Piss Christ could be seen as deeply offensive to Christians.

Julian Burnside QC, for the gallery, said the photograph had been widely published in newspapers and on television, and been the subject of a documentary.

In his judgment the next day Justice Harper refused to grant an injunction.

[Source]

You were saying, Soren? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #184 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:09pm

Quote:

No, and no one is saying it should be. You clearly miss the point of what the debate is about.

Wow. We have no come the equivalent of two posts on this issue, hidden among pages and pages of you obfuscating. Getting back to your statement that originally prompted the question:

Quote:

yes people should have the right to make cartoons depicting and mocking any historical figure, sacred or otherwise. But there is a fine line between free speech and vilification - and people should not have the right to use such depictions to vilify and entire group.

Where do you draw the line? Are the cartoons OK, so long as they are not used in a certain way?

Quote:

Maybe - but I could certainly quote plenty of non-muslims who want a ban on denying the holocaust.

And do you know why they are denied this request? I'll give you a hint - it is something to do with valuing freedom of speech. Look into the debate and I am sure you will even find people uttering the words. You will even find Jews speaking out in defense of freedom of speech. As always, the evidence you present merely another example of the stark contrast between western values and the Muslim community - a contrast you cannot see because you do not value freedom of speech.

Quote:

In fact its law here.

What is? Denying the holocaust? Let's give this a try shall we. The holocaust did not occur. Waiting.....

Quote:

I bet I could find a thousand different ways in which non-muslims in Australia are 'out of step' with your take on our values.

This one is close to the top of the list in significance, and one where you are on the wrong side.

Quote:

Yet somehow people specifically coming out and calling for freedoms to be curtailed doesn't matter - no, its all about what muslims don't say, go figure

The Muslims saying behead those who insult the prophet do matter, as do the OIC-style attempts to change the law. They have already effectively denied people this freedom in significant ways.

Quote:

My sympathies - nevertheless it is not discrimination or prejudice. Its a simple crime. Minorities like muslims face the very real threat of intimidation and actual attacks become culturalised - and possibly even institutionalised. That is something neither you or I will ever have to fear because of our ethnic origin.

So what? I have no place to speak in support of freedom of speech, in case all those Muslims who oppose freedom of speech get victimised? Would you prefer I left the debate to Yadda and sprint?

Quote:

So you keep saying. The reality is I am in perfect step with the rest of Australia - and you haven't produced a damn thing to indicate otherwise.

This is true. It is like pulling teeth to get a straight answer from you. I estimate we are the equivalent of two posts into the debate, in non-Muslim posts.

Quote:

I'm willing to admit I, and the rest of Australia, is against your demented version of 'freedom', but that is definitely not a muslim thing - its a 'freediver being completely out of step with Australian values' thing.

What is demented about it?

Quote:

No, this is you failing at comprehension, and bringing in strawmen.
Where have I said there isn't a problem with islamic extremism?

No Gandalf. This is you failing to comprehend. The problem I was referring to, is one that is bleeding obvious to everyone, including Annie - the loss of the freedom to depict and mock Muhammed. Do you agree that it is a very bad thing? Can you even see the difference between this loss of freedom and the acts of violence that created it?

Quote:

Me saying you have no shred of evidence that mainstream muslims are out of step with the rest of Australia vis-a-vis our freedoms and values, is not saying there is no problem with non-mainstream extremist muslims, and that they don't pose a very real threat to people's freedoms.

My evidence is your inability to find a single Muslim leader speaking out in defense of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed. My evidence is the absence of debate in the Muslim community. My evidence is the absence of anything to balance the extremists on the issue of freedom of speech. Muslims are either silent or openly and violently anti-freedom.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #185 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:34pm

Yes, G, you oppose freedom of speech.

Not because you oppose freedom of speech or anything, oh no.

Because you’re a Muslim.

FD’s evidence is the lack of any form of debate in the Muslim community. Muslims are either silent or violently oppose all forms of Freeedom. You see?

Evidence.

Now come clean, G. Confess.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #186 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 9:16pm

Not entirely silent. They talk furiously. They respond to the blatant attacks on freedom of speech. They issue press releases. They just fail to utter the words freedom of speech. When Barak Obama responded, he cut to the chase. He labelled it a freedom of speech issue and placed himself firmly on the side of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed. It was uncontroversial. What goes without saying for most people in the west, is unutterable for the Muslims that Gandalf insists are on the same page. Yet because they are slightly smarter than the Muslims who write on a placard that people who insult Muhammed should be beheaded, or who lobby for an end for that right through official channels, Gandalf thinks he can spin it into something positive.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #187 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:14pm Eid Mubarak, Gandalf.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49347 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #188 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:18pm moo baa double quack double quack
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #189 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:21pm freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm: Even Annie recognises this as a bad thing. Geez, thanks. "even Annie knows not to lick the windows."
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #190 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:23pm freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:18pm: moo baa double quack double quack Eid Mubarak, Freediver.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49347 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #191 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:31pm Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:21pm: freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:57pm: Even Annie recognises this as a bad thing. Geez, thanks. "even Annie knows not to lick the windows." You try getting Gandalf to say it is a bad thing. He will think it is a question about whether he supports 9/11.
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Soren

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #192 - Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:47pm

IS is present tense, no need to add ’now’.

Piss Christ was argued over in court and that was it. Nobody was hurt, nobody was killed, not here, not in any other jurisdiction.

Muslims are killing blasphemers. Now. And not just in muslim countries but in the West where they have no f.cking business to impose their f.cking sharia. Not now, not yesterday, not tomorrow, not in 1871.

”similar controversies”??? You are a craven, longwindedly dishonest apologist, brain.
There is nothing ”similar” about seeking redress in court and sticking your sharia manifesto on a man’s chest with a knife or killing the translator of a book you have never read. That you would even try to present them as similar shows just how contemptible and dishonest you are.

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:00pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 6:38pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 5:04pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 3:57pm:

Nobody is more bigoted and prejudiced than the strict adherents of Islam and followers of Mohammed.

Rather like the strict adherents of Christianity in that regard, hey, Soren?

Who's forgotten the "Piss Christ", "Life of Brian", "Last Temptation of Christ" and other similar contraversies of modern times reaching right back to the suppression of scientific knowledge such as that of Galilleo and Copernicus? You will, of course. Roll Eyes

Then we have the suppression of Christian "heresies", such as the Gnostocism, Catharism and Waldensians. Hardly free speech allowed there, now was it, Soren? Roll Eyes

Even the Prostentant sects have ostrocised and suppressed various beliefs they considered heretical, now haven't they, Soren? Wink

You are an idiot, Brain. Nobody was killed because of Life of Brian or the rest.

Oh, and I thought we were talking about principles again, Soren. I keep making that mistake, don't I? I keep forgetting that when you mention something, you're talking only about Islam and Muslims and don't like comparisons with other religions. Roll Eyes

You're right, no one was killed, threats however were made and attacks did occur, now didn't they, Soren? Roll Eyes

Quote:

There is no law

[now]

protecting Christianity from mockery and nobody

[now]

dies if it is ridiculed or called poison. You can’t say that about Islam today.

Sorry, just had to correct you statement, to make it factually correct, Soren.

I agree, you can't say that about Islam today. However, not all Muslims agree with that view, do they, Soren? I've spoken about how you try and erect this strawman view of Islam and Muslims, trying to create a monolith where none exists. Roll Eyes

Quote:

You are dishonest if you want to compare the west centuries ago to Islam today. A spineless, dishonest apoligist.

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« Last Edit: Oct 5^th, 2014 at 12:11am by Soren »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #193 - Oct 5^th, 2014 at 12:28am

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:09pm:

What is? Denying the holocaust? Let's give this a try shall we. The holocaust did not occur. Waiting...

It is effectively unlawful as there is an understanding that any serious attempts to promote holocaust denial will prompt certain interest groups to haul them off to the High Court for 18c violations.

Oh looky here FD - George Brandis at pains to reassure everyone that under his proposed amendments to 18c, holocaust denial will

remain

unlawful:

Quote:

"racial vilification would always capture the concept of Holocaust denial. For those who are concerned about Holocaust denial, I can’t see how Holocaust denial fails to be racial vilification,” the Attorney-General told ABC Radio.

Wow fancy that - the AG saying that "holocaust denial would always capture the concept of Holocaust denial". How can that be FD?? I thought allowing such an idea is "something to do with valuing freedom of speech". Brandis must be a muslim - there's no other explanation for it.

You are a f_ucking joke FD - not only are you totally clueless about Australian values, you are clueless about our laws as well.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:09pm:

This one is close to the top of the list in significance, and one where you are on the wrong side.

Why because I hold a view that you cannot even demonstrate is "on the wrong side" as far as mainstream Australian opinion is concerned? We can go round and round on this all day FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:09pm:

My evidence is your inability to find a single Muslim leader speaking out in defense of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed. My evidence is the absence of debate in the Muslim community. My evidence is the absence of anything to balance the extremists on the issue of freedom of speech. Muslims are either silent or openly and violently anti-freedom.

Totally clueless eh?

Here's a hint - exactly the same thing can be said about the non-muslim community.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #194 - Oct 5^th, 2014 at 12:32am

Soren wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 10:47pm:

IS is present tense, no need to add ’now’.
[/quote[

Adding "now", makes it clear your claim is true today, Soren. In the recent past though? We have the clear case of George Pell bringing a case of blasphemous libel against someone for an artwork in 1997. The Church trying to silence an artist. Then we have the cases of the two Christians who attacked and damaged the same artwork. Were they working on their religious beliefs, Soren? YES/NO

[quote]
Piss Christ was argued over in court and that was it. Nobody was hurt, nobody was killed, not here, not in any other jurisdiction.

Yet it was a clear attempt by religious authorities to impose their beliefs on the community through the use of blasphemy laws, Soren. Then we have the case(s) of the Christians who attacked and damaged the work. Proof that some Christians at least still believe in the existence of "blasphemy" as a concept.

Quote:

Muslims are killing blasphemers. Now. And not just in muslim countries but in the West where they have no f.cking business to impose their f.cking sharia. Not now, not yesterday, not tomorrow, not in 1871.

Piss Christ was in 1997, Soren. A clear case of Christians imposing their beliefs on the wider community. Why do you refuse to recognise that, Soren? Does your bigotry blind you that much? Roll Eyes

Quote:

”similar controversies”??? You are a craven, longwindedly dishonest apologist, brain.

Similar contraversies. As usual, you argue principles until it is proven that Muslims are not the only one's contraverning your principles, then suddenly the goal post is moved and you resort to ad hominem attacks, Soren. HB is right, you really are quite dishonest. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?
Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed 11 (55.0%) Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops 4 (20.0%) Something else 5 (25.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: freediver on: Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:43pm »