Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam against free speech?

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49096 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #15 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:27pm Not sure. Where is it illegal to deny the holocaust? I was udner the imrpession that it is only illegal in Germany. Freedom of speech should protect even loonies like the holocaust deniers.
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Lestat

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #16 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:30pm

freediver wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:27pm:

Not sure. Where is it illegal to deny the holocaust? I was udner the imrpession that it is only illegal in Germany. Freedom of speech should protect even loonies like the holocaust deniers.

I'm pretty sure that holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries including Austria and Swizerland.

Also France has recently made it illegal to deny the Armenian holocaut (much to the dismay of the Turks).

Not to mention the numerious occasions where Irving has had his visa rejected purely because of his views of the holocaust.

And as I mentioned earlier...the very same newspaper which had printed the controversial cartoons had just weeks earlier refused to print cartoons of Jesus...on the basis that they might offend.

its a bit rich for them to turn and then defend there 'freedom of expression'...to do exactly that which they refused to do to Christians....offend muslims.

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jordan484

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #17 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:37pm

I agree, all cartoons should be published, every single one of them. But the response to the muslim cartoon would have no doubt been the same even if the jesus one was published as well. It's a very well used, yet pathetically weak defence to say "yeah, but look at what the Christians/Hindu's/Jews did/have done/want to do", it's much more noble to attempt to defend the act that's being discussed rather than use the deflection defense.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #18 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:44pm

Not to mention the numerious occasions where Irving has had his visa rejected purely because of his views of the holocaust.

That is not a violation of freedom of speech. Countries have every right to be choosy about who they let in. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from all the potential consequences of what you say.

the very same newspaper which had printed the controversial cartoons had just weeks earlier refused to print cartoons of Jesus

That is not a violation of free speech either. Freedom of speech includes the right to be a hypocrit. I do not percieve any genuine risk to our right to criticise other religions.

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Lestat

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #19 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:47pm

jordan484 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:37pm:

I agree, all cartoons should be published, every single one of them. But the response to the muslim cartoon would have no doubt been the same even if the jesus one was published as well. It's a very well used, yet pathetically weak defence to say "yeah, but look at what the Christians/Hindu's/Jews did/have done/want to do", it's much more noble to attempt to defend the act that's being discussed rather than use the deflection defense.

No..it just shows that the justification used by the newspaper and the west is rubbish....and the only motive for printing the cartoons was to offend muslims and insult Islam. It had nothing to do with 'freedom of speach' or 'freedom of expression'...and everything to do with attacking Islam and muslims.

Now if you deliberately go out to offend and insult people..then don't squeal like a b(tch when those very same people do something which may offend or insult you.

Otherwise you come accross as nothing but a hypocrite.

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« Last Edit: Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:56pm by Lestat »

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Lestat

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #20 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:55pm

freediver wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:44pm:

That is not a violation of freedom of speech. Countries have every right to be choosy about who they let in. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from all the potential consequences of what you say.

Really? So you don't think that not allowing one to enter the country based on what they have said has anything to do with freedom of speech?

I can only assume your arguing semantics.

freediver wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:44pm:

That is not a violation of free speech either. Freedom of speech includes the right to be a hypocrit. I do not percieve any genuine risk to our right to criticise other religions.

To criticise religon is one thing. To deliberately offend or insult a group of people is completely different.

What you are defending is the right for yourself and the western world to offend muslims, whilst taking away any right for muslims to react to the insult.

So if I went to your house and insulted your father and mother...using your logic, you should do nothing and accept my insults...as I have the freedom of speech..and I can do or say anything or attack anyone? As long as I don't incite violence or slander...huh?

So you don't believe those cartoons were seen as slander by the muslim population?

Like I said...you want to attack some one...then fine, go ahead, as long as you realise that for every action there are consequences.

Don't attack and insult people...and then tell them how they should react.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #21 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 3:04pm

It had nothing to do with 'freedom of speach' or 'freedom of expression'...and everything to do with attacking Islam and muslims.

False dichotomy.

Really? So you don't think that not allowing one to enter the country based on what they have said has anything to do with freedom of speech?

I don't think that freedom of speech is more important than the right of a country to choose who it lets in.

To criticise religon is one thing. To deliberately offend or insult a group of people is completely different.

Not as far as freedom of speech is concerned.

What you are defending is the right for yourself and the western world to offend muslims, whilst taking away any right for muslims to react to the insult.

We are not taking away their right to react.

So if I went to your house and insulted your father and mother...using your logic, you should do nothing and accept my insults

No, don't be silly.

So you don't believe those cartoons were seen as slander by the muslim population?

I guess that depends on your definition of slander. By my definition, and how it is used elgally, it was not slander.

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #22 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 3:58pm Lestat, you're clearly here on behalf of your muslim brothers to help prop up the Islam side of things here. So, yawn.
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Lestat

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #23 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 4:29pm

jordan484 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 3:58pm:

Lestat, you're clearly here on behalf of your muslim brothers to help prop up the Islam side of things here. So, yawn.

Sorry...I didn't realise that muslims were not allowed to post here. My apologies.

Do you object to discussing and debating a topic with a muslim? What are you afraid of?

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jordan484

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #24 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 4:43pm

Lestat wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 4:29pm:

jordan484 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 3:58pm:

Lestat, you're clearly here on behalf of your muslim brothers to help prop up the Islam side of things here. So, yawn.

Sorry...I didn't realise that muslims were not allowed to post here. My apologies.

Do you object to discussing and debating a topic with a muslim? What are you afraid of?

Who said you weren't allowed to post? False apologies are a wank. I only stated why you are posting.

No, I don't object to discussing a topic with anyone, I do object to whoever it may be censoring what I say because of their personal belief system.

I'm afraid of some things in this world, but you are not one of them.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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mozzaok

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #25 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 5:23pm

Still no muslims with the guts to declare that the Islamic clerics who prescribe death penalties for people who criticise Islam are morally wrong to do so.
Lestat gave a pathetic attempt to deflect the issue by asking where the condemnation of the Iraq war was, unless he lives under a rock he would know that millions of westerners openly, and vociferously, opposed the west's incursion into Iraq, millions question, and openly oppose all totalitarian and violent actions, it seems the muslims like to march as one, and accept the misdeeds of their people with mute compliance, when not deceitfully defending their wrongs, that is why we call you hypocrites.

I know of only a very small number of posters involved in this debate, on this site, who did not openly condemn the west's invasion of Iraq.

That is the point of an open, free society, we have the right to disagree with and challenge the decisions of our leaders, without having to worry about some crazy cleric, calling for our death because they do not like what we say.

Muslims, like we have here, are either in agreement with the barbaric practice, or are too scared to say so even if they disagree.
So much for a religion of peace and tolerance, that is the unfunniest joke of our times.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #26 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 5:40pm

Still no muslims with the guts to declare that the Islamic clerics who prescribe death penalties for people who criticise Islam are morally wrong to do so.

I don't think morals come into it for them - what matters is what Islam allows. I'm rpetty sure they've made it clear that Islam doesn't allow that.

Though I'd still like to know what the penalty for blasphemy is.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #27 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 8:43pm

Quote:

Not sure. Where is it illegal to deny the holocaust?

Apparently in Australia it is.

Quote:

Holocaust Denial in Australia

In Australia, there are no specific statutes prohibiting Holocaust denial. However, the Australian courts have made it clear that Holocaust denial is a form of antisemitism and vilification, which is prohibited by Federal anti-discrimination laws. In doing so, Australian law has developed genuine protection against Holocaust denial, and has demonstrated that Jews will have a means of redress.

The leading judgement is that of Jones v Toben [2003] FCA 137 decided by the Federal Court of Australia in 2003. The case concerned a website of an extreme right wing group, the Adelaide Institute, run by Fredrick Toben. The material published on the website denies the reality of the Holocaust and makes antisemitic statements. This material was held to be in breach of the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 (Cth), as it was reasonably likely to offend, insult, or humiliate and intimidate Jews in Australia because of their origins. The court ordered the respondent, Adelaide Institute director Fredrick Toben, to remove all offensive material from the site.

When an order of the Court is not complied with, it is possible to charge a perpetrator with contempt of court. In 2007 the ECAJ brought a successful action for contempt of court, which required Toben and the Adelaide Institute to comply with the 2002 order.

Source: B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commision

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #28 - Aug 4^th, 2008 at 9:16pm I read that as a case against racial vilification, and holocaust denialists need not involve themselves in racist language to put forward that opinion, so to equate that judgement as banning discussion of the holocaust would seem imprudent.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49096 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #29 - Aug 5^th, 2008 at 9:15am I agree. material published on the website denies the reality of the Holocaust and makes antisemitic statements.
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Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?
Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed 11 (55.0%) Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops 4 (20.0%) Something else 5 (25.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: freediver on: Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:43pm »