Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam against free speech?

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95911 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #315 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:33pm Miam miam.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #316 - Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:15pm Karnal wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:33pm: Miam miam. Put that shite sandwich away, PB. You love it but please enjoy it in the misery of your own lounge room.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #317 - Oct 20^th, 2014 at 10:43am

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

Thanks Gandalf. Am I supposed to be embarrassed about not remembering a dodgy internet survey you posted many months ago?

Yet you manage to remember every piece of obscure conversations with other Muslim posters years after they occurred... Funny how selective your memory is FD. Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #318 - Oct 21^st, 2014 at 10:29am

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

I have presented plenty of actual evidence of Muslims undermining our freedom of speech.

crap. Not one.

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

The lack of 'good' Muslims standing up for freedom of speech in response is not absence of evidence.

Yes it is. Thats exactly what it is.

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

I have already. I have demonstrated that there is not even any overlap in the two spectrums of opinion when it comes to the right to depict and mock Muhammed.

Seriously, what a f_ucking joke you are. How can you say this with a straight face? I think I know what the problem is - you don't even know the meaning of the word "demonstrate". Do me a favour and look it up.

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

You respond to this by picking one piece of evidence I have presented, insisting that is the only piece, then concluding I have not made the case.

Correction: I pick out your only piece of *NON* evidence, and point out the *FACT* that you have no evidence and conclude from that you have no case - which you don't. I see I need to give you another assignment - look up the word 'evidence'.

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

How have I misrepresented what Annie said?

By taking her statement about a *MINORITY* of muslims being of concern vis-a-vis our freedoms (which everyone, including me agrees with) as evidence that *MAINSTREAM* muslims are (and here's your bs quote again) "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity". Perhaps we should confirm with Annie - Annie - do you support FD's statement that mainstream muslims are chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity? Are you happy that FD took your previous statement about a minority of muslims to claim support for his statement?

freediver wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:35am:

Where does it say that "a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery"?

You can try and explain away "insult", "offend" and "humiliate" someone on the basis of religion - as not having anything to do with wanting to place religion beyond criticism or mockery, but you are being your usual dishonest, spineless-apologist self. Its just a continuation of the excruciating long-running saga of FD performing the most absurd hypocritical contortions to sustain his pathetic anti-muslim prejudice.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #319 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 7:25am

Quote:

crap. Not one.

OK, once more for Gandalf - here is some of the evidence I have presented of Muslims chipping away at our freedom of speech.
Non-Muslims literally fear for their life if they openly depict and mock Muhammed.
Muslims trying to kill people who openly depict and mock Muhammed.
Muslims publicly threatening to behead people who depict and mock Muhammed.
Muslims using legal processes (eg the OIC) to make it a crime to mock Muhammed.
You trying to make the case for making it a crime to mock religion, and insisting the majority of Australians agree with you.
In this context, the absence of Muslims standing up for freedom of speech is not absence of evidence. It is absence of counter-evidence, where counter-evidence would be expected if you had a case to make. There are no 'good' Muslims in this debate. Just bad Muslims, and Muslims who stand idly by while freedoms are stripped away on their behalf.

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By taking her statement about a *MINORITY* of muslims being of concern vis-a-vis our freedoms (which everyone, including me agrees with) as evidence that *MAINSTREAM* muslims are (and here's your bs quote again) "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity".

Can you qupote me saying this about her? I have already pointed this out plenty of times - I was using that as evidence of what non-MUslims (even the most sympathetic ones) think.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #320 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 9:41am

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 7:25am:

OK, once more for Gandalf - here is some of the evidence I have presented of Muslims chipping away at our freedom of speech.
Non-Muslims literally fear for their life if they openly depict and mock Muhammed.
Muslims trying to kill people who openly depict and mock Muhammed.
Muslims publicly threatening to behead people who depict and mock Muhammed.

Now you are being sneaky. No one is disputing that "muslims" do this - and by that we both know it refers only to a tiny minority. That you dishonestly refuse to even clarify such an obvious point speaks volumes about the direction you are desperately trying to drive this conversation, and your underlying prejudices. Muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful and just as pro-freedom as everyone else - a point that you demonstrably do not disagree with - you just prove it by using these sorts of non-arguments. And yet you are so desperate to obfuscate your position so as to not appear in any way "sympathetic" to mainstream muslims.

Now that we have established what everyone knew all along - that "muslims" (a deliberately sneaky way to describe a tiny extremist fringe of muslims) pose a theat to our freedoms, now you can start on the majority mainstream AUstralian muslims. Either stop being a coward and acknowledge they are no different to anyone else, or present an actual case with evidence to argue why they are a threat and "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity"

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 7:25am:

Muslims using legal processes (eg the OIC) to make it a crime to mock Muhammed.

An organisation that has no connection at all to the Australian muslim community.

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 7:25am:

ou trying to make the case for making it a crime to mock religion, and insisting the majority of Australians agree with you.

Bullshit. Quote me

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 7:25am:

In this context, the absence of Muslims standing up for freedom of speech is not absence of evidence.

Rubbish. You would make a far stronger case for pointing to the fact that mainstream Australians are very happy with making it "unlawful" to have an opinion on history, and to make it unlawful to mock people on the basis of religion - and argue that mainstream non-muslim Australians are against free speech. Your blind selectivity and hypocricy is unbelievable FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 7:25am:

Can you qupote me saying this about her? I have already pointed this out plenty of times - I was using that as evidence of what non-MUslims (even the most sympathetic ones) think.

I can quote you saying Annie supported your claim that mainstream muslims are chipping away at our freedoms. But it would be easier if you just looked it up yourself.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #321 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm

Quote:

Now you are being sneaky. No one is disputing that "muslims" do this - and by that we both know it refers only to a tiny minority. That you dishonestly refuse to even clarify such an obvious point speaks volumes about the direction you are desperately trying to drive this conversation, and your underlying prejudices.

You claimed I had no evidence. This is evidence. You attempt to dismiss each piece of evidence individually on the grounds that it is the only piece of evidence, when in fact I have presented a long list of evidence. It is perfectly reasonable in those circumstances for me to give an overview of the evidence I have presented. It is unreasonable for you to insist I have misrepresented this evidence.

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Muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful and just as pro-freedom as everyone else - a point that you demonstrably do not disagree with

Well done. Do you have any evidence that they are just as "pro-freedom" as everyone else, beyond that little internet survey whose meaning you stretched beyond recognition?

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Now that we have established what everyone knew all along - that "muslims" (a deliberately sneaky way to describe a tiny extremist fringe of muslims) pose a theat to our freedoms

Not just a threat Gandalf. They have already been very effective in restricting public discourse. Non-Muslims clearly speak out in support of freedom of speech as a response. Muslims, in stark contrast, remain silent. This is not absence of evidence. It is a demonstration of the vast gulf in opinions between mainstream Muslims and the rest of the community.

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An organisation that has no connection at all to the Australian muslim community.

Except of course religion.

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Bullshit. Quote me

Here you go:

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A survey saying a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery does...

If you concede that this survey is obviously BS and in no way reflects the views of the majority of Australians, I will stop bringing it up.

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I can quote you saying Annie supported your claim that mainstream muslims are chipping away at our freedoms. But it would be easier if you just looked it up yourself.

Quote me then. I have used Annie to demonstrate how wrong you are about our society's views on Muslims making people scared to mock Muhammed. Annie would be one of the most sympathetic non-Muslims, but even she is not close to the most progressive Muslims on the issue.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #322 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 2:33pm

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:

when in fact I have presented a long list of evidence.

Well done FD. I could bring in evidence that chickens lay eggs - after being asked to provide supporting evidence for human induced climate change - if I wanted to, and boldly declare it as "evidence". Well yeah, it is indeed evidence - of something, and this exercise would be equally as pointless as what you are doing.

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:

Well done. Do you have any evidence that they are just as "pro-freedom" as everyone else

See FD here's your problem: normal people don't look at a group of people and make blind assumptions about them with no evidence. Normal people don't take a group en-masse and boldly declare "these people are chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" without a shred of evidence. And they certainly don't respond to a reasonable request for evidence for such a bold claim with the haughty "prove that I'm wrong" logical fallacy. Which is exactly what you are doing.

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:

beyond that little internet survey whose meaning you stretched beyond recognition?

Vintage FD. Don't worry, I'll save you the embarrassment of having to explain yourself there - because frankly, I just can't be arsed. Suffice to say your blatant hypocricy and spineless apologism for any hint of "anti-freeedom" sentiment amongst the "good" non-muslim population is duly noted.

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:

Non-Muslims clearly speak out in support of freedom of speech as a response.

Ah yes, I mean I was literally bowled over by the howls of outcry when George Brandis reaffirmed the unlawfulness of having a particular opinion on history. And didn't you just love the outpouring of support for the government's proposal to take away the line from our Racial Discimination Act that makes it unlawful to offend someone? Tongue

These are totally the things that sets you apart from the bad freeedom-hating muslims right?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #323 - Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 2:52pm

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:

If you concede that this survey is obviously BS and in no way reflects the views of the majority of Australians, I will stop bringing it up.

THere is nothing wrong with the survey. Time you started to put up or shut up on that front. If the survey had shown a majority of muslims wanting to execute apostates you wouldn't be making these empty attacks on it. Your spineless apologism for anything that resembles non-muslim Australians rejecting your extremist view of freedom is painfully transparent.

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:

I have used Annie to demonstrate how wrong you are about our society's views on Muslims making people scared to mock Muhammed.

All you have demonstrated is a complete (wilful) misunderstanding of my position. I thought you would have got the hint by now- as I've explained it often enough. I *AGREE* that a minority of muslims have made people scared to freely mock islam, and its got nothing to do with my point. You really are the master of conflating different issues: here I'll break it down into baby language for you:

1. minority of muslims attacking our freedoms and presenting threat to our freedoms = bad and real

2. majority/mainstream muslims 'chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity' = baseless and BS.

You want to know why Annie is right and you are wrong? She makes the case in this thread and the other one that mainstream muslims are not to blame, that the problem is only with a tiny minority. You on the other hand flatly refuse to make this distinction, even though you agree with it by implication. Instead you are more than happy to conflate the two, use the sneakily ambiguous term "muslims" - when you clearly mean "a tiny minority of muslims", and do everything you can to tar all muslims with the same brush.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #324 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm

Quote:

Well done FD. I could bring in evidence that chickens lay eggs - after being asked to provide supporting evidence for human induced climate change - if I wanted to, and boldly declare it as "evidence". Well yeah, it is indeed evidence - of something, and this exercise would be equally as pointless as what you are doing.

Or you could provide an example of an Australian Muslim leader speaking out in favour of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed, in order to demonstrate to the head hacking lunatics that it is more than the means to an end that they differ on.

Quote:

See FD here's your problem: normal people don't look at a group of people and make blind assumptions about them with no evidence. Normal people don't take a group en-masse and boldly declare "these people are chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" without a shred of evidence.

Hence the long list of evidence.

Quote:

And they certainly don't respond to a reasonable request for evidence for such a bold claim with the haughty "prove that I'm wrong" logical fallacy. Which is exactly what you are doing.

You said you would be able to find the counter-evidence I suggested. You tried. You failed. You failed so badly that you presented evidence of a Muslim leader avoiding the topic of freedom of speech instead and tried to pretend he was speaking in support of freedom of speech.

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Vintage FD. Don't worry, I'll save you the embarrassment of having to explain yourself there - because frankly, I just can't be arsed. Suffice to say your blatant hypocricy and spineless apologism for any hint of "anti-freeedom" sentiment amongst the "good" non-muslim population is duly noted.

Do you stand by your interpretation of that internet survey? I guarantee you that you are on your own here Gandalf.

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THere is nothing wrong with the survey.

There are obvious flaws in both the survey and your interpretation of it. They compound each other to get the absurd conclusion you drew.

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If the survey had shown a majority of muslims wanting to execute apostates you wouldn't be making these empty attacks on it.

The Pew survey was done properly and I did not need to reinterpret the results the way you did.

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You want to know why Annie is right and you are wrong? She makes the case in this thread and the other one that mainstream muslims are not to blame, that the problem is only with a tiny minority. You on the other hand flatly refuse to make this distinction, even though you agree with it by implication.

I have made the same distinction plenty of times. I just refuse to equate standing silently by while your co-religionists destroy freedom of speech on your behalf with actually supporting freedom of speech or being on the same page as mainstream Australians on this issue. There is no distinction between pro and anti freedom of speech Muslims. There is only a difference between head-hacking and non-head-hacking anti-freedom Muslims. That is why I can cite your own stated views here to back up my case.

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #325 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:47pm

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:

Or you could provide an example of an Australian Muslim leader speaking out in favour of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed, in order to demonstrate to the head hacking lunatics that it is more than the means to an end that they differ on.

Ah back to demanding that I prove a negative. Thats your comfort zone I guess.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:

You said you would be able to find the counter-evidence I suggested. You tried. You failed. You failed so badly that you presented evidence of a Muslim leader avoiding the topic of freedom of speech instead and tried to pretend he was speaking in support of freedom of speech.

I provided evidence of muslims condemning violent reactions to the cartoons. That is an implicit recognition of people's right to produce the cartoons - unless you can present evidence of Australian muslims (ie not the OIC) demanding that such cartoons be outlawed, which you can't. From the evidence we have, there is nothing to suggest the mainstream muslim reaction is any different to how the rest of Australia reacted.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:

Do you stand by your interpretation of that internet survey?

I stand by my assertion that this survey demonstrates the exact sort of spineless apologism you rail against - provided its done by muslims or people defending muslims. If the same survey had shown 70% of muslims saying that insulting people on the basis of religion should be outlawed, you wouldn't be trying to obfuscate with pathetic excuses like "its meaning has been stretched beyond recognition" - would you? At least be honest here FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:

There are obvious flaws in both the survey and your interpretation of it.

OF course there is. It is inconvenient.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:

The Pew survey was done properly and I did not need to reinterpret the results the way you did

Oh, so perhaps you can help me then - exactly how do I misinterpret people wanting to outlaw offending people on the basis of religion?

Are you saying this response doesn't actually demonstrate the same spineless apologetics that you've been spamming us with this last year? Please FD, do continue explaining away your blatant and spineless hypocricy on this. Its hilarious.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:

I have made the same distinction plenty of times. I just refuse to equate standing silently by while your co-religionists destroy freedom of speech on your behalf with actually supporting freedom of speech or being on the same page as mainstream Australians on this issue. There is no distinction between pro and anti freedom of speech Muslims. There is only a difference between head-hacking and non-head-hacking anti-freedom Muslims. That is why I can cite your own stated views here to back up my case.

Those "co-religionists" are even less affiliated with me than you or sprint. It is a complete insult to even insinuate that I am "one of them". And thats the heart of the issue here - you doing what you yourself warned against 7 years ago - tarring all muslims with the same brush. Its prejudism 101 - outgroup homogeneity is the technical term. You are just proving yourself to be every bit as bigoted as the people you accuse of being bigoted.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95911 Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #326 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 5:31pm Soren wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 11:15pm: Karnal wrote on Oct 18^th, 2014 at 6:33pm: Miam miam. Put that shite sandwich away, PB. You love it but please enjoy it in the misery of your own lounge room. But, old boy, you gave it to me. What happened to good old Kraut hospitality?
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freediver

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #327 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm

Quote:

Ah back to demanding that I prove a negative. Thats your comfort zone I guess.

It's disproving a negative Gandalf. All it would require is you quoting an Australian Muslim leader supporting the right to depict and mock Muhammed. Logically, it is the easiest thing in the world. Of course, it's a tough ask in this context, given the nature of Islam and it's adherents. You cannot find even one. Fail.

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I provided evidence of muslims condemning violent reactions to the cartoons. That is an implicit recognition of people's right to produce the cartoons

No it isn't. It is speaking out against people taking the law into their own hands - something even Abu did. It is implicit recognition that people already have this right under existing law. It is not a statement of support for that right, implicit or otherwise, except in the fevered minds of the most eager of reinterpreters. If this truly is the best example you can find of a Muslim supporting freedom of speech, you prove my case for me.

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unless you can present evidence

No Gandalf, I must merely point out that he did not say, nor did he even imply the things you say. This does not require me to present counter-evidence.

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I stand by my assertion that

Is this you backpedalling, or merely changing the topic? I would appreciate a clarification. Let me know if you need to me quote yet again the claim I am asking about.

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Oh, so perhaps you can help me then - exactly how do I misinterpret people wanting to outlaw offending people on the basis of religion?

Again, do I need to quote your effort at reinterpretation? This would be much simpler if you would own your backpedalling.

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Those "co-religionists" are even less affiliated with me than you or sprint. It is a complete insult to even insinuate that I am "one of them".

What, a Muslim?

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #328 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 8:19pm

I beg to differ, FD. There’s Shiek Muhammed Khunt for a start.

Good man, loves his Freeedom, one of us. He’s been calling on his followers to mock Islam for years.

Now that’s one thing you’ll never hear a priest say. They keep saying blasphemy’s a mortal sin.

Not the Shiek though. He says it’s in the interests of Freeedom to denounce Islam. There is no Gud but Allah? Hardly.

There is no Gud, Muhammed is not a prophet, the Quran is a load of krap.

Shiek Khunt’s hoping it will take off. He says it’s in the spirit of religious harmony and fraternity. Muslims shout hate Islam like everyone else.

Food for thought, eh?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49081 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #329 - Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 8:33pm Quote: Now that’s one thing you’ll never hear a priest say. They keep saying blasphemy’s a mortal sin. I couldn't care less if a Muslim says I am going to hell for mocking Muhammed. It's the helping me get there bit that is the problem.
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Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?
Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed 11 (55.0%) Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops 4 (20.0%) Something else 5 (25.0%) Total votes: 20 « Created by: freediver on: Oct 9^th, 2014 at 12:43pm »