freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 8:33pm:


It must make your blood boil that G isn’t trying to help you get there, FD.

Y, yes, but he doesn’t count.

H’s a Karmic Khristian.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


You won't find one - the idea is absurd. Religious leaders are universally fuddy-duddy on this point. You've been provided with quotes by christian leaders calling for insults to christianity to be outlawed. You won't find any christian leaders supporting the right to mock Jesus or christianity.

What you cannot deny though is the broad community of Australian muslims being on the same page as the rest of the community vis-a-vis our values and our freedoms. Your non-argument about muslim leaders merely proves that establishment muslim leaders are the same as any other establishment religious leaders - ie they want their religion to be beyond criticism.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


No, muslims speak out in support of freedom of speech all the time. Most recently against calls for Hizbt Tareer to be banned. That people are hypocritical about what this means doesn't change the fact that it is a defense of freedom of speech.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


Focus on the actual topic FD, not your pathetic attempts to derail it. *YOU* answer the question - was this response an example of the exact type of spineless apologism you have been railing against, or is it one rule for muslims and another for non-muslims. That is the heart of the topic of the thread here - are mainstream muslims actually demonstrably different in their attitudes about our values and freedoms?

Or if you insist on focusing on those words of mine - answer my other question - if the respondents had been muslim, would you label this as attempting to legally put islam beyond criticism? Be honest, if you can.

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:


Yes FD, there are some muslims I don't feel at all connected or associated with. . Muslims are not all the same believe it or not. Its called not tarring all muslims with the same brush - I believe you are familiar with the term.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 8:51am:


Abu? Ah.

Except G has done none of those things.  He responds to all of your posts in detail.

I’m starting to think maybe Abu wasn’t so bad after all.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 2:36pm:



And how well that illustrates the utter failure of the propaganda over the last decade or so about Islam being a religion of peace.


In the same period we have seen not only FD but entire countries turn.

Quote:


He is doing those things right here in this thread Karnal. I can quote him if you'd like.

Quote:


It is only absurd for Muslims. But I'm happy to make it easier for you. Try coming up with a Muslim 'community leader' who speaks out in support of freedom of speech in the face of his fellow co-religionists trying so hard to destroy it by any means possible.

Quote:


I don't recall anyone being beheaded for mocking Jesus lately, so it is hardly a hot topic at the moment. But it is easy enough to find Christian leaders speaking out in defense of freedom of speech and showing a genuine understanding of the concept. My first google search threw up a few good ones, for example:

http://reformedperspective.ca/component/content/article/52-magcontent/human-rights/210-a-christian-perspective-on-freedom-of-speech

You'll notice that in contrast to your Muslim, they actually utter the words freedom of speech and take a principled stand in favour of it. They actually say many of the same things I have been saying.

Any luck yet finding a Muslim doing the same?

Quote:


And they are howled down by their fellow Christians. You'll notice more big differences here - one, there is a debate, and two, the pro-freedom Christians have won that debate. This is the vast gulf between Muslims and the rest of the community that you are pretending to be blind to.

Quote:


You always resort to the vague and meaningless, because it is impossible to pin down. Yet you have no clue what the rest of the community thinks and you have demonstrated that right here in this thread.

Quote:


Again, you merely demonstrate you inability to even comprehend the concept. You have done this a few times already.

Quote:


This is the actual topic Gandalf. I can see I need to quote you again:

Quote:


Would you mind clarifying whether you are backpedaling or merely changing the subject?

Quote:


I think you could read a lot into the survey. A respondent could have meant nothing more than support for current limitations on freedom of speech in the form of libel and slander laws. You took it to the opposite extreme. On the surface it does appear to be a case of spineless apologetics, but I bet even the respondents who said yes would balk at your effort to reinterpret their response.

Quote:


The OIC is an example of Muslims trying to legally put Islam beyond criticism. This on the other hand is a dodgy internet survey. I can find very clear examples of muslims expressing their hostility to freedom of speech and do not need to stoop to your efforts at reinterpretation.

Quote:


But they are still Muslims, as are you, and it is in no way dishonest of me to point this out.

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 6:49pm:


Always, absolutely, never ever. The old boy’s as tedious and predictable as the Sprintcyclist.

I blame Islam.

Karnal wrote on Oct 24^th, 2014 at 6:25pm:



Country after country questions multiculturalism because of Muslims. Not because of Sikhs, Buddhists, presbyterians or individuals like FD, me or anyone else.
Because of Muslims.  It is Islamic terrorism that exercises Western security forces. The Muslim civil war reaches into every country. Every time a middle eastern Arab country gets the vote, they elect a far worse, Islamic/sectarian government than the distasteful dictatorship that was supposed to be improved upon by the democratic process: See Labia, Egypt,e Iraq, Gaza. They can't sort themselves out at home and they are not shedding their ways when they migrate to democratic western countries. They are not giving up Islam and Islam will not submit to secular, Western liberal democracy.

Quote:


I believe they are there, in the Koran. In what sense do you not 'believe' them?

Quote:


Perhaps you should quote the whole thing. Maybe even include a link. Merely quoting the bit that says "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" makes it look like you are trying to misrepresent what I said.

Quote:


While we're at it, how do you feel about this claim?

Quote:


Quote:


Yes it would be.

Quote:


Sure. Here is what I said in the last post about it Gandalf:

Quote:


Is there anything confusing or 'not straight' about that Gandalf? Like I have already pointed out, there are issues with that survey on many levels - including your effort at interpreting the results. One of those issues is ambiguity - the same ambiguity we get from your refusal to elaborate on when it should be illegal to depict and mock Muhammed. In the case of the survey, this is a flaw that cannot now be undone. In your case, it is a continued and deliberate effort at obfuscation.